P71_CrownVic Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 He came from Scion? Hmmmm, the Flex is now making sense....... Damn you P!! You had me going for a sec. I was already on google trying to confirm his Scion past Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 (edited) The thing is that we do, why do we have so many students from India, China, etc coming to our Colleges and Universities? There are a number of reasons. One is availability. Every backwater town in the US has a college of some sort. It doesn't mean that it's a top tier learning institution. Why aren't American colleges and universities so full that foreign students can't get in? Why do foreign students score consistently higher than Americans on grades despite usually being at a disadvantage in terms of language? Think about it. Besides, I never said North Americans weren't smart, I said they didn't corner the market on smart. The sooner you realize the rest of the world isn't as behind as a lot of Americans believe, the sooner you'll stop the rest of the world from eating your lunch. Edited July 28, 2008 by OAC_Sparky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb62 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 I got a list of the layoffs via e-mail. In addition to Rich, there were a lot of names on the list I wouldn't have expected from a capability standpoint (and some that should have been gone some time ago -- and others I wish were gone but unfortunately didn't make the list). And prominent among the names were chassis engineering managers and vehicle integration/development engineerings and managers. Anyway you can publish this list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Anyway you can publish this list? Sorry, bb62, I would not feel comfortable doing this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
battyr Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 A car is not designed by the chief, but by a team. If you every watch Survivor, each team loses members including leaders. When the teams (Tribes) merge you end up with a better team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 From a PR standpoint, it was not good for Ford to lay off the chief designer of an important product that just came out. I can't believe Ford did this. Who's next...the chief designer of the Fiesta? Not likely for 2 reasons. I don't know who the chief designer is but I'm pretty certain he/she is from England, and anyone from FOE seems to have a silver spoon in their mouth and are "untouchable" (not in the Asian Indian meaning of the word) Second, of all of the Ford engineers/designers in the world, American Ford engineer/designer get paid the most. Obviously you cut from the top down. Before Ford US decided to outsource most of the Powertrain Controls to Bosch, there was actually a study done to determine where else in the world of Ford this work could be done. Ford of Mexico was high on the list, but did not have the "talent" seeing as they were relying heavily upon Ford US powertrain controls (as was Ford Australia until they outsourced a few years ago). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb62 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Sorry, bb62, I would not feel comfortable doing this. Can you eMail them to me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Well, it was too bad about what's his name. Considering that the styling theme for the next generation of Ford cars is already being worked on, and that Lincoln's styling team seems to be sufficient, there might not have been another big project for him to be director of, and won't until the new theme has been worked out. Maybe he didn't want to design Mercury grills. You are making it sound like he had a choice ! His only choice was to fill the box and leave quietly or make a scene and get carried out forcefully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 If Ford is going to do this, why not just fire the PR department also, obviously they were bypassed here. When Ford wants to shoot themselves in the foot, they don't want any help. On second thought, don't fire them, they are still needed to patch "why we shot ourselves in the foot" problems. You think there is co-ordination between Engineering, HR and PR ???!! Ha ! I couple of weeks ago, the contractors got the broom. Typically these folks got a call in the evening at home and were told not to report in the next day, but to go to their contract house and turn in their ID. One person got the call and said, "I knew this was coming, but my department manager asked me to stay another week to train my replacement. Are you sure I should stay home tomorrow ?" The response was, "Well, I'm a contractor too and was just hired a week ago and then given this list of people to contact, so I don't know !" The following day, around noon, the person was contacted and asked if they would like to work for another week. Great co-ordination ... NOT !!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 ... And prominent among the names were chassis engineering managers and vehicle integration/development engineers and managers. I'm not talking about bureaucrat engineers, but guys who could design a suspension from scratch if they were asked to.... One was a person who was the chassis engineer primarily responsible for the Ford GT ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb62 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 (edited) You are making it sound like he had a choice ! His only choice was to fill the box and leave quietly or make a scene and get carried out forcefully. One thing that appears to be constant is Ford's complete ineptitude with how they are handling these departures. Many of the people being let go are people who have long years of service (often with 30 years) and they are just being shown the door. While I agree that Ford has to let people go, for many of these long term and successful employees, you could at least allow them to take a "victory lap" and say goodbye to their teammates and perhaps have an going away luncheon, but no, it's out the door without so much as a thank you for your time. This process has had the people at Ford in a state of near panic for what seems like years right now. Management can say that this would be the last time, but they’ve said that for a long time. Cuts have been underway since the early Nasser days and have been a nearly yearly experience. If ever there was a chance at reengineering Ford, the “Pavlov’s dogs” syndrome that has occupied most of Ford’s employees has probably ruined that for pretty much all of North America. I think that Mullaly probably senses this and realizes that the product revolution will need to come from overseas. He does seem to have some good people helping him. Kuzak should be a rock of stability (for his mature sense management style and even manner) for those left. Edited July 28, 2008 by bb62 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 You are making it sound like he had a choice ! His only choice was to fill the box and leave quietly or make a scene and get carried out forcefully. It happens in every line of work. Auto workers are no more special than anyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catalepsy Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Well, every company I've worked in does the same thing. You show them the door as quickly as they will show you the letter of resignation. A few years ago, 2 companies ago, layed off 400 right before xmas. Many of them 30-40 yrs service. Basically they all got an email to meeting the cafeteria, and then building security escorted them to their desks to cleanup, and then out of the building. The problem is that now and days you can't stay with the same company for that long any more. It is 3-5 yrs and you got to move on; 1-2 yrs if your position really isn't going anywhere. Your skills will become so outdated in 30 yrs that it will be extremely difficult for you to find another job in other industries. There was a time when job hopping is a bad thing, but now and days it is a matter of survival. Companies will not promote you if they can get you to take on additional responsbilities. The only way you are going to get ahead is by moving to another company. There's no victory laps anymore. You are competiting with the world, and you gotta make sure you're in a position to move on if time calls for it. You get caught napping and not updating yourself and your skills, next thing you know you become an overpaid relic of the office. One thing that appears to be constant is Ford's complete ineptitude with how they are handling these departures. Many of the people being let go are people who have long years of service (often with 30 years) and they are just being shown the door. While I agree that Ford has to let people go, for many of these long term and successful employees, you could at least allow them to take a "victory lap" and say goodbye to their teammates and perhaps have an going away luncheon, but no, it's out the door without so much as a thank you for your time. This process has had the people at Ford in a state of near panic for what seems like years right now. Management can say that this would be the last time, but they’ve said that for a long time. Cuts have been underway since the early Nasser days and have been a nearly yearly experience. If ever there was a chance at reengineering Ford, the “Pavlov’s dogs” syndrome that has occupied most of Ford’s employees has probably ruined that for pretty much all of North America. I think that Mullaly probably senses this and realizes that the product revolution will need to come from overseas. He does seem to have some good people helping him. Kuzak should be a rock of stability (for his mature sense management style and even manner) for those left. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 it's out the door without so much as a thank you for your time Legal requirements. You can't show preferential treatment in how you handle involuntary terminations. Every large corporation does the security escort thing. See, you no longer have a 'personnel' department, you have a 'human resources' department. People aren't people in the modern corporation, they are cogs. And you remove/replace cogs as efficiently as possible. If you let =some= people say good-bye, etc., you will have =some= people launching viruses, =some= people xeroxing confidential documents, =some= people coming back to work with a gun, etc. It's a problem that is far bigger than Ford Motor Company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomServo92 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Legal requirements. You can't show preferential treatment in how you handle involuntary terminations. Every large corporation does the security escort thing. See, you no longer have a 'personnel' department, you have a 'human resources' department. People aren't people in the modern corporation, they are cogs. And you remove/replace cogs as efficiently as possible. If you let =some= people say good-bye, etc., you will have =some= people launching viruses, =some= people xeroxing confidential documents, =some= people coming back to work with a gun, etc. It's a problem that is far bigger than Ford Motor Company. I work for a Fortune 500 company and it's the same. When someone is "involuntarily separated" (as our HR puts it), they are allowed to box up their personal belongings from their office (while security or a supervisor or manager observes), their security badges and other company owned items like cellphones and PDAs are confiscated, and then immediately walked out the gate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 Yes a company computer system with SAP will says who goes and who stays in the future, put in the number you want to get rid and click enter up will pop a list of the first 700 you need to get rid of based on sick, lateness etc, yes its all very cold Richard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 BTW, I HATE the phrase 'human resources'. I HATE cubicle farms, and I HATE the fact that people are commodities at big businesses. Cubicle farms are the human equivalent of feedlots, confinement hog farms, and confinement poultry farms. Folks, it's time to start campaigning for FREE RANGE work environments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 (edited) Jelly, you hit the nail on the head. I got a list of the layoffs via e-mail. In addition to Rich, there were a lot of names on the list I wouldn't have expected from a capability standpoint (and some that should have been gone some time ago -- and others I wish were gone but unfortunately didn't make the list). And prominent among the names were chassis engineering managers and vehicle integration/development engineerings and managers. I'm not talking about bureaucrat engineers, but guys who could design a suspension from scratch if they were asked to. These people are being fired because their work is being performed elsewhere. I must admit, as an American, I am severely embarrassed that our country seems to be on the road to be nothing more than a place to sell stuff that is developed and often times manufactured elsewhere. And in the auto industry, the US appears to becoming simply the battleground of Asia-designed vs. Euro-designed vehicles. But....we've still got body-on-frame expertise. And if fins ever come back in style, we've got that technology also. Very sad to read what waste of talent.. If the vehicles get designed in Europe how the hell will they know what Americans want, it all seems mad to me. What the wrong with fins? Its do nothing jellymould shapes on cars that look stupid and pretentious that l can't stand, thank God for the 85 MPG Mini Clubman and 97 MPG Citroen Cactus diesel boxy shaped cars. http://www.sustainableaviation.co.uk/pages...-767-300er.html Edited July 29, 2008 by Ford Jellymoulds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 And some people don't recognise it's importance. And others don't realize the US is still the largest manufacturer in the world, producing $1.49 trillion in goods (as of 2005). Manufacturing in the US has done anything but vanish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 And others don't realize the US is still the largest manufacturer in the world, producing $1.49 trillion in goods (as of 2005). Manufacturing in the US has done anything but vanish. To put that in perspective, thats slightly larger than Canada's GDP....and Canada has the 9th Largest GDP in the world. Its also larger than the GDP of Spain in 8th place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TStag Posted July 28, 2008 Share Posted July 28, 2008 And others don't realize the US is still the largest manufacturer in the world, producing $1.49 trillion in goods (as of 2005). Manufacturing in the US has done anything but vanish. I'm guessing that your not counting the EU as one? Which would be a little unfair as the likes of France are much smaller geographically and in terms of population than the USA. I can't say I'm surprised at the possibility of work moving to Europe. The brutal reality is that FOE's design teams are effectively winning work from the US. It rarely ever happens the other way around. Ford NA have nothing to offer Europe at the moment. The Flex? To big? The F150? No market. The E Series Van? To uneconomical. That's the bottom line. European designs and Japanese designs are much easier to export to the US than the other way around. Partly because we don't want large cars that do 3 to the gallon and partly because the styling and engineering can sometimes be a bit too off the wall. Lincoln VS Volvo, BMW, JLR, Mercedes, Lexus, Audi say's it all. Lincoln is the only one still stuck largely in it's home market. Why? Because it's designs have very limited appeal elsewhere in the world. Until FNA start to make some cars with wider appeal then you can wave goodbye to more and more work to Europe. It's harsh but true, and I'm sure you'll flame me for it but an attitute of not listening is what got Ford into this mess in the first place. Hey just realised there is one design we want in Europe. It's called Mustang. But you keep refusing to send us that one. Naughty FNA! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 European designs and Japanese designs are much easier to export to the US than the other way around. Hey just realised there is one design we want in Europe. It's called Mustang. But you keep refusing to send us that one. Naughty FNA! OTOH, go through the US 'league table' and count how many designs are US/NA specific in the top 20.... Camry, Accord, F-Series, Ram, Silverado ALL are NA spec models with limited sales elsewhere. Vehicles in the top 20 sold globally are exclusively Japanese/Korean, NOT European. -- BTW, isn't it funny that the one vehicle you guys most want is the one vehicle that is most American in concept? Baby always wants what Baby can't have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SparcEE Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 The issue with the layoffs (firing) is the people being fired aren't always the right ones. Keeping the low priced under performers who only perform before a separation event is morally sad to us who work a lot of extra hours to make sure our job is done right. Especially when they have been warned, but seem to be like the teflon Don and keep staying the course while the expensive people are given the walk. I'm not saying it's all old folks, but 15-20 years of experience doesn't grow on trees and have seen many of those cases in the last week. I'm glad is soon to be over for this round, but fully expect another round...probably around Christmas. SparcEE Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cougarpower Posted July 29, 2008 Share Posted July 29, 2008 I know this is not good but if we consider that Ford will go from 25 platforms today, to about 9 in 3 years a lot of designers and enginneers will not be needed, the US will stay in charge of pickups, SUVs and Mustangs, Europe will be in charge of Ford small and midsize cars and small SUVs and US with Australias help in charge of big RWD cars and Australia of global ranger so the teams are in place already Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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