What are reasons that Ford should update and continue the Panther?

[Deanh]

Depends on what you're looking for. Sound and fury, signifying nothing? Well, F1's got that. Lots of noise, lots of speed, and at the end of the race, you've got the starting grid right back where the race started in roughly the same order.

 

The 'golden age' of F1 (1970s-80s) looked a lot like CART pre IRL split. A wide variety of venues, reasonable tickets and access, and a lot of competitive entries.

 

Now--sound and fury, signifying nothing.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Or, if you would prefer, Alice's Caucus-Race

 

 

For the bulk of the teams in F1, they appear to be as feckless as the participants in that race.

least they dont have a P71 as a safety car....

[NickF1011]

and people read the articles in Playboy as well........

 

At least the articles are good sometimes. Course, I only really notice them after I ruin the rest of the issue.

[fbmphil]

What are reasons that Ford should update and continue the Panther?

 

NONE

 

 

It needs a clean sheet of paper.....no "updates".

 

A-freaking-men.

 

In today's market, they are HORRIBLE vehicles. In the 900+ miles I spent in various Grand Marquii (? :shrug: )for work last month, I came to the realization that if you actually BUY one of these NEW, you're most likely brain dead. I tried and tried and tried to find a redeeming value in the damn thing and I just couldn't. The fact that I was quite literally sitting on a sofa and had back pain for days after driving it didn't earn it too many brownie points either.

[rkisler]

At least the articles are good sometimes. Course, I only really notice them after I ruin the rest of the issue.

 

Hmmm.

 

A thread about Panthers, Formula 1, and naked women.

 

Life just couldn't get much better, could it?

[Hemiman]

A-freaking-men.

 

In today's market, they are HORRIBLE vehicles. In the 900+ miles I spent in various Grand Marquii (? :shrug: )for work last month, I came to the realization that if you actually BUY one of these NEW, you're most likely brain dead. I tried and tried and tried to find a redeeming value in the damn thing and I just couldn't. The fact that I was quite literally sitting on a sofa and had back pain for days after driving it didn't earn it too many brownie points either.

 

 

I'm in the market right now. And if the Panther's had the Explore's engine/trans combo. I'd ignor my wifes "it looks like an old cop car" complaint and put it first on the list.

 

Oh, but because someone places a value on different vehicle dynamics than you do, they must be "brain dead".

 

Pretty arrogant statement.

[fbmphil]

I'm in the market right now. And if the Panther's had the Explore's engine/trans combo. I'd ignor my wifes "it looks like an old cop car" complaint and put it first on the list.

 

Oh, but because someone places a value on different vehicle dynamics than you do, they must be "brain dead".

 

Pretty arrogant statement.

 

Ok ok, I'll admit that I exaggerated a weee bit. I just can't see the logic in spending that kind of coin on a new Panther platformed car, especially after spending an extended amount of time in them, but YMMV :beerchug:

[Hemiman]

Ok ok, I'll admit that I exaggerated a weee bit. I just can't see the logic in spending that kind of coin on a new Panther platformed car, especially after spending an extended amount of time in them, but YMMV :beerchug:

 

 

No Problem

[armadamaster]

P71_CrownVic PMed me over at CVN to pass this reply along:

 

1) staple of fleet use--not necessarily an advantage. Other vehicles would fill in the vacuum left by the panthers, were they discontinued. Due to better fuel economy, some products might dramatically reduce TCO for certain uses (e.g. taxis and hybrids)

 

Yeah...I am sure you can get a silly hybrid for 17K. Ford doesn't make money on their hybrids when they sell to reatil customers...so they will for SURE be losing selling at fleet prices. Unlike the Panthers which MAKE TONS of money at fleet prices. Try again D!ck.

 

2) components and tooling paid for--not necessarily an advantage. The panthers use a lot of unique, low volume assemblies (very little shared switchgear, no shared seat frames, no shared suspension components, probably no shared braking system, unique stereo, etc.) This increases the cost per unit of the vehicle.

 

And yet...Ford can still put one together for between $9K and $12K. Try again D!ck.

 

3) sturdiness and reliability--not panther exclusives. D3 is similarly sturdy and similarly reliable--at least for the normal service life of fleet panthers.

 

Yeah...just look at all of the PDs and Taxi companies snapping up the Taurus. Try again D!ck.

 

4) trunk space is awkwardly shaped, smaller than the D3s, and thanks to the fuel tank and SRA, there is no pass-thru available

 

The D3s have pass through...and look at how well they sell. Try again D!ck.

 

5) BOF construction means that the panther is not a flexible platform. It is also quite heavy for its size and capacities.

 

Yeah...good thing the much smaller, WAY less practical, unitbody Mustang doesn't approach 4000 pounds...oh wait...Try again D!ck.

 

6) replaceable panels are not necessarily unique to BOF vehicles, apart from the rear quarters. And even there, damage to the rear quarter that would require extensive frame work on a unibody vehicle would likely require extensive frame work on a BOF vehicle as well.

 

Yeah...let's see what is cheaper to fix...a Panther or a Charger, Impala, etc...Try again D!ck.

 

7) long lifespan not necessarily unique to BOF. Equally 'over-engineered' vehicles like the D3s should have similarly long lifespans, and regardless of extended lifespan, the service life of the original owner is the only thing of concern to Ford.

 

Again...look at how many PDs and Taxi companies are snatching up D3 as their vehicles. Fact is, a D3 will NOT hold up to the level of abuse that the Panthers are capable of taking day in and day out. Their trans. would self destruct at 40K and the engines would be done by 80K. Try again D!ck

 

8) cheap to maintain is, again, not necessarily unique to BOF vehicles. One has a vision of interchangeable parts taken from any of a decade's worth of junked panthers as making the panther easy to maintain, and yet, such actions are not recommended by Ford, and often are undertaken by 2nd owners--not the original owner.

 

You start off with maintenance...than regurgitate what you typed for number 6. Anyway, look at the total maintenance costs of a Charger squad versus a Panther. The Panther will be MUCH lower. Try again D!ck.

 

"No, not really. Biggest handicap is it's just not very flexible."

 

I guess the definition of "flexible" is a platform that is able to spawn 7 failures in 3 years.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Armada Master

[armadamaster]

Oh boy this discussion again!

 

EVERTHING I'VE SAID OVER THE PAST 6 YEARS ABOUT THE PANTHER IN PAST POSTS THE 30 TIMES A YEAR THAT THIS TOPIC IS BROUGHT UP.

 

To sum it up, there is no reason why a heavy-duty sedan can't co-exist in Ford's mix of vehicles.

 

+1

 

But I'll go through it again anyway.

 

It's as relevant or as irrelevant to large/fullsize sedan buyers that the design team and Ford marketing make the car out to be. Unfortunately, neither of those have been tapped in regards to this car in decades.

 

The Panther is the ONLY viable option for a RWD large car for Ford, now and into the near future.

 

A large RWD car will not again be the Camry and Accord it was twenty years ago, but that does not mean that there is not a market for it.

 

CAFE WILL eliminate anything larger than a Civic by 2020. Why should Ford invest in an all new risky RWD platform or import an unknown (to NA) risky RWD platform for maybe another decade worth of sales?

 

The only way for a new viable common RWD architecture to be relevant from a cost standpoint would be for as many vehicles to share it as possible. For example, Mustang/Vic/GMQ/TC/Ranger/Explorer. That ain't happening. Midsized B-O-F RWD SUVs are going the way of the dinosaur. And while I don't personally agree with it, Ford seems to think 5 different CUVs will fill the gap. They're assuming that returning and future Explorer buyers will downsize/downgrade into a CUV or upgrade into an Expedition, only time will tell. Mustang buyers and the automotive press ninnies would never accept a B-O-F Mustang nor would Panther buyers accept a unibody Crown Vic, period.

 

Ford doesn't have the money or time to invest in a new fullsize/large car RWD platform that will wind up filling only that gap. Anything smaller in overall size to the current Panther and you're directly competing with the already redundant and failing D3s, which the Panther is STILL outselling or keeping up with at the very least. Panther sales in particular plummeted when they had to start competing with the D3's, if you want to call it competing. Eliminate the less profitable D3s and I'd bet the Panthers would get most of those sales back, and that's before some updating. Replacing the panthers with an all new platform also runs the risk of losing everything that still sells the Panther platform, like decades of reliability, proven safety record, ride quality, and unmatched durability. The Panther is the F-150 of it's little market segment, albiet a neglected F-150. Hate on the Panther all you want, but since things need to be done on the cheap, a new skin, an additional engine option, God forbid a commercial or two, and proper updates for the Panther are the MOST LOGICAL course of action for maximum profits and minimum risk in a limited but profitable segment which is EXACTLY how Ford needs to be thinking RIGHT now.

Edited August 6, 2008 by Armada Master

[Cougarpower]

I dont hate the Panthers and they are nice cars but the time for a replacement has come, and as long Australia needs a new falcon and US a new Mustang the plan is underway for the GRWD platform flexible enough to get those cars in the same platform for half the price of having to develop 2 platforms, heck right now Ford has 3 RWD car platforms and that needs to be only 1, just like they will do with the midsize and small cars, and that is the samething that is killing GM instead of merging their global operation by merging pontiac with holden, US Buick with China Buick and US chevrolet with opel and vauxhall.

 

About Cafe if I remember right they will take in to account the car foot print and the number of sales and based on that they will give the Automaker the estimated fleet mpg they need to achieve, here in this article it explains a little better how it will work

http://www.hybridcars.com/incentives-laws/...html?page=0%2C0

Edited August 6, 2008 by Cougarpower

[silvrsvt]

P71_CrownVic PMed me over at CVN to pass this reply along:

 

Can we ban you too, we got rid of P_71 for a reason, we don't need you to be his mouth piece here...

[NickF1011]

Can we ban you too, we got rid of P_71 for a reason, we don't need you to be his mouth piece here...

 

It is being addressed.

[armadamaster]

Can we ban you too, we got rid of P_71 for a reason,

 

What reason was that BTW? Because I never figured it out.

 

we don't need you to be his mouth piece here...

 

I was unaware relaying a couple of posts constituted a "mouthpiece". The "ignore" button is always available if you dislike or disagree with any of my comments, or the ever popular foul language and name calling I'm often at the wrong end of without recourse is always available as well.

 

It is being addressed.

 

A "PM" would be more appropriate to convey a concern or disagreement than a public threat but since it's been highlighted on this thread for everyone to see, I am curious what in the world I've said or done to constitute some "addressing"?

 

And NO that is not a dare, and NO that is not an ultimatum, I geniunely would like to know what anywhere in my 1000+ past posts I've said or done that warrants "addressing" under the TOS.

 

Heck, I got cussed out and called a name a few days ago by another member and not a peep? And now to lighten the mood:

 

 

And now back on topic:

I dont hate the Panthers and they are nice cars but the time for a replacement has come, and as long Australia needs a new falcon and US a new Mustang the plan is underway for the GRWD platform flexible enough to get those cars in the same platform for half the price of having to develop 2 platforms, heck right now Ford has 3 RWD car platforms and that needs to be only 1, just like they will do with the midsize and small cars, and that is the samething that is killing GM instead of merging their global operation by merging pontiac with holden, US Buick with China Buick and US chevrolet with opel and vauxhall.

 

But don't forget the Panthers are extremely popular in the M.E., B-O-F for teh win!

 

About Cafe if I remember right they will take in to account the car foot print and the number of sales and based on that they will give the Automaker the estimated fleet mpg they need to achieve, here in this article it explains a little better how it will work

http://www.hybridcars.com/incentives-laws/...html?page=0%2C0

 

I know how it works, and everyone balks when I mention the whole "nothing larger than a Civic" thing, but to achieve a fleet average of 35 MPG isn't going to be a walk in the park, "heavy" is going to have to go, and that's even assuming a continued Democratic controlled Congress and a potentially new Democratic controlled White House won't "up" CAFE some more before then, which they have talked about doing, makes the future of anything larger than a Corolla iffy at best I think. Stick with the paid for and proven Panther.

Edited August 7, 2008 by Armada Master

[RichardJensen]

Here's the deal. P got suspended. That means he can't post here, even by proxy.

 

Any further posts that contain P's contributions will be removed.

 

As to why he got suspended, well, if I have to explain, you wouldn't understand.

Edited August 7, 2008 by RichardJensen

[armadamaster]

Here's the deal. P got suspended. That means he can't post here, even by proxy.

 

Any further posts that contain P's contributions will be removed.

 

That's good information to have. Might want to consider updating the TOS to reflect that. :stats:

 

As to why he got suspended, well, if I have to explain, you wouldn't understand.

 

Well thanks for not being vague...only thing I saw out of his last five posts was he seemed was a little more abrasive than usual, but still nothing violating the TOS. :reading:

 

Edited August 7, 2008 by Armada Master

[RichardJensen]

Well thanks for not being vague...only thing I saw out of his last five posts was he seemed was a little more abrasive than usual, but still nothing violating the TOS.

More than the last five posts were at issue. What was also at issue was the fact that as time has gone on, he has become more, not less, abusive to the rest of the board. Having reached a point where almost all his posts were abusive, it was decided to suspend his account.

 

Also, you need to take a much closer look at the TOS:

 

knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy

 

That's what got him tossed.

[Deanh]

heres a question...sure the Panthers do have pretty exemplary reputations for dependability no? How long did THAT take? Well....were they that way when first released? I truly doubt at their introduction that they could hold a candle to the current D3's yet there are some that jump all over the fact...here IS a fact...if one veiws an initial release on its POTENTIAL then the D3's are head and shoulders ahead of where the Panthers STARTED...so to all the naysayers UNWILLING to admit that currently the D3's are a superior stepping stone for EVERY parameter upon which a success can be judged then there is just NO way thru to the boneheads that just will NOT give cudos to ANY potential successor....then again if one wants to remain living in a cave then that is their choice....and even if GRWD gets released and is lauded it will make ZERO difference to the opinionated unswayable....

[Deanh]

More than the last five posts were at issue. What was also at issue was the fact that as time has gone on, he has become more, not less, abusive to the rest of the board. Having reached a point where almost all his posts were abusive, it was decided to suspend his account.

 

Also, you need to take a much closer look at the TOS:

 

 

 

That's what got him tossed.

who was the Tosser? TStag?.........

[Hemiman]

They should get rid of the Panthers immediately, & close the plant. They just made 1&2 most reliable in their class. I'll bet the two people left in Panther product management are laughing right now!

 

Of course the one person left in Ranger product management is bringing pizza & beer over to the Panther guys.

 

This is the mark of death for the workers @ these plants, just like Wixom.

Edited August 7, 2008 by Hemiman

[Ron W.]

knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy

 

 

That Sir would leave No body on this site, myself included.

[NickF1011]

That Sir would leave No body on this site, myself included.

 

It's a matter of habitual offense, not an occasional slur or jab now and then. We're not going to discuss it in the public forums any further. This has been moved to PM's.

[wescoent]

Ford of Australia needs a new RWD platform anyway. Whether North America is on board or not, it must go forward.

 

Therefore, the development costs for GRWD are SUNK, and it becomes an issue of how much extra it would cost to make this platform flexible and suitable for North American consumption.

 

I would bet the farm that said cost is less than the cost it would take to make the Panther competitive.

[Edstock]

That Sir would leave No body on this site, myself included.

But there's a difference between the occasional transgression, and chronic sociopathic behavior. 4,000+ posts, and what, 50% negaspew? More? Plus his graphics were an indication of his complete self-absorption, with the flashing avatar and the giant blue truck.

 

Zits getted popped, eventually. Play nice.

[NickF1011]

But there's a difference between the occasional transgression, and chronic sociopathic behavior. 4,000+ posts, and what, 50% negaspew? More? Plus his graphics were an indication of his complete self-absorption, with the flashing avatar and the giant blue truck.

 

Zits getted popped, eventually. Play nice.

 

We're done talking about this in public areas. EVERYONE. Capiche?

 

:yup:

[NickF1011]

Ford of Australia needs a new RWD platform anyway. Whether North America is on board or not, it must go forward.

 

Therefore, the development costs for GRWD are SUNK, and it becomes an issue of how much extra it would cost to make this platform flexible and suitable for North American consumption.

 

I would bet the farm that said cost is less than the cost it would take to make the Panther competitive.

 

With Mustang needing a replacement around the same time as the Falcon, it would be pretty silly NOT to develop it as a flexible global platform. MKR is still a go from what we know as well. Doesn't take much more justification than that to keep GRWD alive.