Theology

[RangerM]

I don't fear death.

 

Nor do you 'attack' those of us who believe. Apologies if you were offended.

 

I fear stupidity.

 

Be afraid. Be very afraid. :shades:

[Trimdingman]

This is a great example of how atheism operates. Acknowledge anything and everything in an argument except the point retaining to God. Then insult anyone who finds validity in the point by calling them stupid or easily influenced ("once the listener has been trained".) Then use unproven theories and here-say to provide a alternate theory. You say that religion is not the source of morality. You have a valid point. However, God is quite literally the source of good. Good by original definition means "of God" or "in accordance with the will of God".

 

Regardless of your beliefs, "Good and Evil" are the accepted moral classifications. You can't have good without God. This is not religious at all, just language.

 

 

I am not an athiest. There could be a god or many gods, or a whole other world or worlds full of superior beings. What I am saying is that there is no religion which correctly describes what, if anything is out there. Maybe Einstein believed in God. I doubt that he believed in Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark and the universe being created in seven days. That is religion. To me, it is bunk. Maybe there is/are god/gods, but no religion knows. The Bible was written by mortal people. Some of it is true history. Much of it is fantasy. Religion means every tenet has to be absolutely true and believed. If one iota is false, the whole religion is false. If you do not believe every single word of the Bible, then you are not a Christian. To do that, when confronted by modern science, means twisting yourself into a pretzyl. You will try to make up illogical possibilities to defend the Bible, but there are too many for any thinking person to accept. You have to break the faith to keep your sanity.

[Versa-Tech]

I am not an athiest. There could be a god or many gods, or a whole other world or worlds full of superior beings. What I am saying is that there is no religion which correctly describes what, if anything is out there. Maybe Einstein believed in God. I doubt that he believed in Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark and the universe being created in seven days. That is religion. To me, it is bunk. Maybe there is/are god/gods, but no religion knows. The Bible was written by mortal people. Some of it is true history. Much of it is fantasy. Religion means every tenet has to be absolutely true and believed. If one iota is false, the whole religion is false. If you do not believe every single word of the Bible, then you are not a Christian. To do that, when confronted by modern science, means twisting yourself into a pretzyl. You will try to make up illogical possibilities to defend the Bible, but there are too many for any thinking person to accept. You have to break the faith to keep your sanity.

Well then I guess me and you generally feel the same way about this. We're just arguing for arguments sake. I could say that pretty much everything you just said applies to me.

[RangerM]

I am not an athiest. There could be a god or many gods, or a whole other world or worlds full of superior beings. What I am saying is that there is no religion which correctly describes what, if anything is out there. Maybe Einstein believed in God. I doubt that he believed in Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark and the universe being created in seven days. That is religion. To me, it is bunk. Maybe there is/are god/gods, but no religion knows. The Bible was written by mortal people. Some of it is true history. Much of it is fantasy. Religion means every tenet has to be absolutely true and believed. If one iota is false, the whole religion is false. If you do not believe every single word of the Bible, then you are not a Christian. To do that, when confronted by modern science, means twisting yourself into a pretzyl. You will try to make up illogical possibilities to defend the Bible, but there are too many for any thinking person to accept. You have to break the faith to keep your sanity.

 

Trim, I understand your frustration, but you must learn to distinguish between the religion and the (so-called) religious person, in the same way you would separate the doctor from the science of medicine.

 

To an outsider, Christanity spans the gambit.

 

From Baptists (which I am, by default I guess); to the Branch Davidians; to the Snake Handlers it can seem very confusing and contradictory.

 

Do I share a belief in Christ with them? Yes. Do I claim to accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior as they claim to? Yes. Do I believe that you cannot accept Christ without being dunked in water first; David Koresh was J-C reincarnated; or gyrating while holding a rattlesnake is reasonable behavior? No, in all three cases.

 

Would that make me non-Christian? To some, yes.

 

Does that mean that Christianity is bunk? No.

 

Much of what is written in the Bible is allegory, and much of its practice is ritual. Christianity (itself) is not in conflict with science. It is some men's belief it is, and that is their loss. I believe that Science is the study of God's Creation, and have not seen anything yet that suggests otherwise.

 

There are very few things in the Christian Bible written in stone (meaning they are to be taken literally), and the most important one that IS to be taken literally has no alternative meaning: Matthew 22:36-40

Edited December 8, 2008 by RangerM

[NickF1011]

Nor do you 'attack' those of us who believe. Apologies if you were offended.

 

 

 

Be afraid. Be very afraid. :shades:

 

No need to apologize for anything. Anyone can believe whatever they want as far as I'm concerned. Just treat your fellow man with respect and I have no problem with you, no matter what you believe in.

 

I only draw the line when people try to tell me that what they believe is the only right way to go about it. :shrug:

[macattak1]

That is a great story. This is how religion operates. The cold and dark analogies are correct. The evil analogy is stuck in once the listener has been trained. Religion is not the source of morality. Religion uses morality to induct followers. Morality is natural. Humans, like most animals have a natural instinct to protect and not harm their own species. That is part of natural selection. That is how we continue and don't die off. When we become too crowded, we temporarily lose this instinct and become contemptuous of each other, and fight for our territory. Overcrowding depletes the food supply and facilitates the spread of disease. Sometimes we have to kill each other for the greater good of the species. This is not evil.

 

How do Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Khrushchev, Amean, etc. fit into your story line of natural selection, instinct, and protection of their own species?

[macattak1]

I am not an athiest. There could be a god or many gods, or a whole other world or worlds full of superior beings. What I am saying is that there is no religion which correctly describes what, if anything is out there. Maybe Einstein believed in God. I doubt that he believed in Adam and Eve and Noah's Ark and the universe being created in seven days. That is religion. To me, it is bunk. Maybe there is/are god/gods, but no religion knows. The Bible was written by mortal people. Some of it is true history. Much of it is fantasy. Religion means every tenet has to be absolutely true and believed. If one iota is false, the whole religion is false. If you do not believe every single word of the Bible, then you are not a Christian. To do that, when confronted by modern science, means twisting yourself into a pretzyl. You will try to make up illogical possibilities to defend the Bible, but there are too many for any thinking person to accept. You have to break the faith to keep your sanity.

 

I dont have to make up any illogical possibilities to defend the bible. I don't even have to defend the bible. It stand perfectly on its own. I am quite comfortable with everything I have ever com across in the bible and I have read 90%+ of it. It does not cause me any late night headaches.

 

Peace and Blessings

[NickF1011]

How do Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Khrushchev, Amean, etc. fit into your story line of natural selection, instinct, and protection of their own species?

 

And what about the millions of atheists who have never killed another human being? I could spout off quite a list of Christians who are responsible for the deaths of millions also. Would that prove all Christians are evil?

[macattak1]

And what about the millions of atheists who have never killed another human being? I could spout off quite a list of Christians who are responsible for the deaths of millions also. Would that prove all Christians are evil?

 

I don't know? What about them?

 

Sharpen your axe before you grind it.

 

Seriously, I am asking him about those people per 'his' idea of humans naturally protecting the species. Because of what 'he' said. Not you or anyone else.

 

Peace and Blessings

[Versa-Tech]

I don't know? What about them?

 

Sharpen your axe before you grind it.

 

Seriously, I am asking him about those people per 'his' idea of humans naturally protecting the species. Because of what 'he' said. Not you or anyone else.

 

Peace and Blessings

Sorry, but I have to agree with Nick. My father used to make comparisons between me and Hitler when I was young, and it did little more than make him look stupid in my mind (Despite his 160+ IQ). I'm not saying you look stupid, but your comparisons are asinine. The only woman I ever loved was an atheist... she was the most gentle human being I ever met.

[NickF1011]

I don't know? What about them?

 

Sharpen your axe before you grind it.

 

Seriously, I am asking him about those people per 'his' idea of humans naturally protecting the species. Because of what 'he' said. Not you or anyone else.

 

Peace and Blessings

 

So now you are saying that the dictators you mentioned are examples of what humanity is and will do? Personally, I find them to be the exceptions, not the examples.

[macattak1]

So now you are saying that the dictators you mentioned are examples of what humanity is and will do? Personally, I find them to be the exceptions, not the examples.

 

No.

 

They would be exceptions in his scenario I am sure. But they are about 100 million murders worth of exceptions! Lets not slide by them too easily.

 

Then look at the people 1 step closer to 'humanity' from those. And then another step closer and another step closer. You go through those in federal and state pens, organized crime, and all the way down to our little white collar crime and such. Few of those will we find to be Christians. Then I am thinking, and if he is so logical and such a thinker he would be too, that maybe man is not so programed to protect his species, as he stated not I, as he is programed with selfishness and self love.

 

He is painting religion as something bad. I have little desire to defend religion as a whole. Religiosity in the scripture usually only caused problems. However, he is painting with a broad brush against Christianity all the while making Atheists some intelligent logical place to be.

 

Peace and Blessings

[macattak1]

Sorry, but I have to agree with Nick. My father used to make comparisons between me and Hitler when I was young, and it did little more than make him look stupid in my mind (Despite his 160+ IQ). I'm not saying you look stupid, but your comparisons are asinine. The only woman I ever loved was an atheist... she was the most gentle human being I ever met.

 

If all you got from my post was that all atheists are Stalins then you did not get your fathers 160+ IQ.

[NickF1011]

No.

 

They would be exceptions in his scenario I am sure. But they are about 100 million murders worth of exceptions! Lets not slide by them too easily.

 

Then look at the people 1 step closer to 'humanity' from those. And then another step closer and another step closer. You go through those in federal and state pens, organized crime, and all the way down to our little white collar crime and such. Few of those will we find to be Christians. Then I am thinking, and if he is so logical and such a thinker he would be too, that maybe man is not so programed to protect his species, as he stated not I, as he is programed with selfishness and self love.

 

He is painting religion as something bad. I have little desire to defend religion as a whole. Religiosity in the scripture usually only caused problems. However, he is painting with a broad brush against Christianity all the while making Atheists some intelligent logical place to be.

 

Peace and Blessings

 

Sorry. That part in bold made me laugh out loud.

[macattak1]

Sorry. That part in bold made me laugh out loud.

 

 

Why? Christians are far from perfect. But usually you wont find them in for murder or such. Usually you end up down that road after a long ride. That would kind of exclude Christians. Though it would be possible for them to find themselves in a bad spot doing something stupid.

 

King David and Moses were both murderers. But they were not your typical life of crime and made it to murdering kind of guys.

 

Peace and Blessings

[NickF1011]

Why? Christians are far from perfect. But usually you wont find them in for murder or such. Usually you end up down that road after a long ride. That would kind of exclude Christians. Though it would be possible for them to find themselves in a bad spot doing something stupid.

 

King David and Moses were both murderers. But they were not your typical life of crime and made it to murdering kind of guys.

 

Peace and Blessings

 

Prisons are full of violent offenders who are self-proclaimed "Christians". Give me a break. I doubt there is any evidence at all that shows scientifically that atheists are more prone to violent behavior than Christians or any other religion.

 

I could offer this up anecdotally though: Far more Western Europeans consider themselves atheist than do Americans. Violent crime is far lower in Western Europe than in the United States. Doesn't seem to mesh up, does it?

[macattak1]

Prisons are full of violent offenders who are self-proclaimed "Christians". Give me a break. I doubt there is any evidence at all that shows scientifically that atheists are more prone to violent behavior than Christians or any other religion.

 

I could offer this up anecdotally though: Far more Western Europeans consider themselves atheist than do Americans. Violent crime is far lower in Western Europe than in the United States. Doesn't seem to mesh up, does it?

 

I guess you may be confused as to the difference between what one claims to be and what one is? Or should I come from the direction that you did in that now your trying to paint all Christians as violent offenders?

 

Peace and Blessings

[NickF1011]

I guess you may be confused as to the difference between what one claims to be and what one is? Or should I come from the direction that you did in that now your trying to paint all Christians as violent offenders?

 

Peace and Blessings

 

Who decides who is a "real" Christian and who isn't? You? That can't possibly be quantified. And if you claim "only non-Christians would kill somebody" then you are basically saying that Christians do not sin (after all, a sin is a sin is a sin in God's eyes, right?), which is obviously a fallacy.

 

And how exactly did I try to paint all Christians as violent offenders? I'm only painting them as no less violent than anybody else.

[macattak1]

Who decides who is a "real" Christian and who isn't? You? That can't possibly be quantified. And if you claim "only non-Christians would kill somebody" then you are basically saying that Christians do not sin (after all, a sin is a sin is a sin in God's eyes, right?), which is obviously a fallacy.

 

And how exactly did I try to paint all Christians as violent offenders? I'm only painting them as no less violent than anybody else.

 

 

You spend so much time reading between the lines what is not there and seem to miss what is actually written.

 

I don't decide anything.

 

I never said only none Christians kill. In fact, I gave you two Saved people that were in fact Murderers.

 

I also said Christians are Far From Perfect.

 

How did I paint all Atheists as you said I did?

 

Peace and Blessings

[NickF1011]

You spend so much time reading between the lines what is not there and seem to miss what is actually written.

 

I don't decide anything.

 

I never said only none Christians kill. In fact, I gave you two Saved people that were in fact Murderers.

 

I also said Christians are Far From Perfect.

 

How did I paint all Atheists as you said I did?

 

Peace and Blessings

 

You inferred there weren't Christians in prisons because of violent offenses:

 

You go through those in federal and state pens, organized crime, and all the way down to our little white collar crime and such. Few of those will we find to be Christians.

 

Why? Christians are far from perfect. But usually you wont find them in for murder or such.

 

What are they then, unless you are saying they are all Jews or Muslims etc? And if you and I cannot determine who is Christian and who is not, how can "we find" any of the people in prison to be Christian or not? What you are really saying is that the violent criminals in prisons are mostly atheists. I highly doubt that, and I also doubt you have any evidence that can possibly demonstrate that.

[Versa-Tech]

If all you got from my post was that all atheists are Stalins then you did not get your fathers 160+ IQ.

That's not what I said. I said that your comparisons are asinine. I'm not the one here making such bold statements, you are. Your views on atheists are scathing. The fact is that their are many good natured atheists and their are many good natured christians. You just can't just throw around generalizations like that... you're only proving the points you attempt to argue against.

[NickF1011]

That's not what I said. I said that your comparisons are asinine. I'm not the one here making such bold statements, you are. Your views on atheists are scathing. The fact is that their are many good natured atheists and their are many good natured christians. You just can't just throw around generalizations like that... you're only proving the points you attempt to argue against.

 

Hmm. I'm an atheist, or more accurately, a skeptical agnostic. I donate to charities every year. I haven't killed anyone recently either. I haven't even gotten a speeding ticket in over a decade. I guess I'm still "evil" though.

 

[macattak1]

You inferred there weren't Christians in prisons because of violent offenses:

 

wWhat are they then, unless you are saying they are all Jews or Muslims etc? And if you and I cannot determine who is Christian and who is not, how can "we find" any of the people in prison to be Christian or not? What you are really saying is that the violent criminals in prisons are mostly atheists. I highly doubt that, and I also doubt you have any evidence that can possibly demonstrate that.

 

 

I do not believe I ever inferred that. Regardless, I apologize if I did. There are certainly Christians in jail for violence. However, that would be very uncommon. Someone who follows Christ does not premeditate murder. Certainly not repeatedly.

 

Christians in general are not going to be in jail Repeatedly for violent offenses. Kind of breaks the Christian aspect of their lives.

 

Peace and Blessings

[NickF1011]

I do not believe I ever inferred that. Regardless, I apologize if I did. There are certainly Christians in jail for violence. However, that would be very uncommon. Someone who follows Christ does not premeditate murder. Certainly not repeatedly.

 

Christians in general are not going to be in jail Repeatedly for violent offenses. Kind of breaks the Christian aspect of their lives.

 

Peace and Blessings

 

See, you're inferring it again. If it is "uncommon" for Christians to be jailed for violent offenses, then obviously someone else is being jailed for violent offenses much more often. Who are those others? Jews? Muslims? Atheists? Who's commmitting all the murders if it's not the innocent Christians? Provide some evidence of this.

 

It is simply my position that violent people are violent people and those violent people are going to come from all religious backgrounds, despite what you might want to believe.

[Versa-Tech]

Hmm. I'm an atheist, or more accurately, a skeptical agnostic. I donate to charities every year. I haven't killed anyone recently either. I haven't even gotten a speeding ticket in over a decade. I guess I'm still "evil" though.

 

Theologically, Evil is defined by one's conscience. Not to get to far into dogma, but by the most accurate explanation Hell only exists out of God's mercy as a place furthest away from "the fires of heaven" so that those who are unable to stand the presence of perfect goodness can seek sanctuary. It is only by the ignorance of 99.9% of christians [who fail to actually study the intricacies of their own religions] that this whole "God damns you to hell because you're not christian" bullshit started.

 

By the teachings of the most respected christian theologists, if you know in your heart that you have done the best to live a good life, you are good and therefore afford yourself the purity to enter paradiso. So-called christians who dispute this simply do not know the teachings of their own religion.