UAW hails auto bailout but will work to remove 'unfair conditions'

[simplesituations]

You say it takes 8% of the cost of the car is labor I think it's higher than that. Lets say it is 8% only because 3/4 of the sub-assembles are made outside this country. Think what is would be if all of it was done in this country add another 5 grand or more to the price of the car.

 

 

Every state should be right to work state.. I'm pissed right now unions in my state (Iowa) are trying to pass everyone pays in like a union member does. But we are not union members at all. Fee for them for thinking what is better for me.. I see it as unions sticking there hands in my pocket for something they have no right too. This law they are trying to get pass has been shot down twice now

I said 8 to 12%, depending on models, you say that you THINK it's higher, so the big 3 and the UAW don't know what they are talking about when it comes to the cost of building a vehicle. 5 grand is a huge reach buddy, unless you are talking about a 50 grand purchase. Let's not talk about what if it was made out of this country as that is the reason that so many jobs are gone out of the country and I'm not talking about just auto jobs. That's IT jobs as well that get outsourced.

 

I never said anything about unionizing everything, if people want unions, that is up to them but realize if it wasn't but don't demonize the UAW if you don't know what it is about and do some research. One quick note, look up back in the early 70's when Walter Reuther tried to get a bill passed about health care that was shot down in congress that would have saved all companies billions today, Yea that was a union that saw health care getting out of hand then and look at it now. Do your research.

[simplesituations]

fleeced means that if the assembly jobs paid at market rate the d3 could fill those postions for 33 percent less then they pay today. There are many jobs in the assembly process that the d3 would have no problem filling for 33 percent less then is extorted from them today.

 

Face it, the uaw is a business, their product is labor, their costs are way out of line.

 

The UAW may be able to hold the d3, with their hard to move billion dollar plants, hostages, but they can't play the same games with taxpayers.

 

It is time for the uaw to get their labor costs in order or move on to the history books.

Extorted!!!!!! That's a strong word when it was NEGOTIATED!!!! Plus there hasn't been a wage increase in 3 years. I guess the transplants get fleeced too. Seeming that you didn't answer the rest of the question you don't have a clue what you're talking about. What do you do for a living.

[akirby]

Extorted!!!!!! That's a strong word when it was NEGOTIATED!!!!

 

Give me what I want or I'll STRIKE! That's not negotiation - it's extortion, plain and simple.

[simplesituations]

Give me what I want or I'll STRIKE! That's not negotiation - it's extortion, plain and simple.

let me define extortion for ya, "extortion" as "the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right."

 

You are so full of it, take your horse blinders off, you just wanna fall in line with the media and the negativity of the rest of the country that has been brainwashed from all the babble. You can't see that the people are actually going to make less if this continues and your kids, if you have any, or other peoples children will be making less than you will. That will be the 1st time in many generations that this can happen. If you wanna be a service country and succumb to the rest of the world then that's problematic. The past has passed us but that's all you wanna do is remember the past and not the present. Please save your rhetoric for someone else.

Edited December 20, 2008 by simplesituations

[davdog]

let me define extortion for ya, "extortion" as "the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right."

 

You are so full of it, take your horse blinders off, you just wanna fall in line with the media and the negativity of the rest of the country that has been brainwashed from all the babble. You can't see that the people are actually going to make less if this continues and your kids, if you have any, or other peoples children will be making less than you will. That will be the 1st time in many generations that this can happen. If you wanna be a service country and succumb to the rest of the world then that's problematic. The past has passed us but that's all you wanna do is remember the past and not the present. Please save your rhetoric for someone else.

 

I think it is you that needs to take the blinders off. There are a lot of great jobs out there and new ones popping up all the time.

Your kids and my kids will have awesome opportunities available to them.

Manufacturing jobs have been taking the route of north to south to further south to east for at least 40 years. Why is the uaw surprised that it is now happening to them?

simplifying and cutting production costs are the natural routes for all mature manufacturing processes.

I have had many jobs in my working career but to compare I will say that I can't fathom the fact now that in 1984 I was doing circuit board repair for a company named data general. Actually fixing a cirucit board! Times change.

[jm2607]

But wages aren't even the biggest problem - it's the FORCED jobs bank and other work rules that handcuff the mfrs.

 

Make the jobs bank optional at the company's discretion - just like every other business. If it makes sense to keep people on payroll they will. If not they won't. It shouldn't be mandatory.

 

Give the companies flexibility to address health care costs by increasing copays or decreasing benefits as necessary. Just like every other company has been doing for decades.

 

Give the companies the ability to lay people off as necessary. Negotiate early retirements and good severance packages to help but accept that in some cases workers have to leave the payroll.

 

Work out a deal between Ford, GM and Chrysler so workers can transfer and retain their benefits.

 

Allow unproductive employees to be disciplined or terminated for cause - just like every other business.

You have no idea what the hell your talking about. Have YOU read OUR contract? WE HAVE addressed our healthcare costs. WE HAVE increased copays. WE HAVE decreased benefits. WE CAN transfer and retain our benefits (I did). AND WE can be disciplined for cause. You people think we can just go to work and do what the hell we want and its NOT that way. But it's nice of you to acknowledge that the wages aren't the biggest problem. Now that the truth comes out and people know that our hourly rate IS comparable to the transplants (and in some cases lower) you will move on to something else about autoworkers to bitch about. Get over it, the UAW isn't going anywhere- and THATS what you don't like.

[simplesituations]

I think it is you that needs to take the blinders off. There are a lot of great jobs out there and new ones popping up all the time.

Your kids and my kids will have awesome opportunities available to them.

Manufacturing jobs have been taking the route of north to south to further south to east for at least 40 years. Why is the uaw surprised that it is now happening to them?

simplifying and cutting production costs are the natural routes for all mature manufacturing processes.

I have had many jobs in my working career but to compare I will say that I can't fathom the fact now that in 1984 I was doing circuit board repair for a company named data general. Actually fixing a cirucit board! Times change.

I need to take them off, PAAAALEASE!!!! All kinds of new jobs popping up all the time??? Well I guess we need to tell the unemployed that seeming that they can't find jobs right now and so many others laying off workers of all types.

This is what will happen in the future, mark my words on this. In the medical field, when it finally gets saturated, they will be the next ones to get hammered due to getting payed too much, no one will be able to afford healthcare and government will have to take that over because they never acted now, wont's in the future and they didn't act in the past.

 

what kind of awesome jobs will they get???? A service job, is that what we want this country to be?

[davdog]

You have no idea what the hell your talking about. Have YOU read OUR contract? WE HAVE addressed our healthcare costs. WE HAVE increased copays. WE HAVE decreased benefits. WE CAN transfer and retain our benefits (I did). AND WE can be disciplined for cause. You people think we can just go to work and do what the hell we want and its NOT that way. But it's nice of you to acknowledge that the wages aren't the biggest problem. Now that the truth comes out and people know that our hourly rate IS comparable to the transplants (and in some cases lower) you will move on to something else about autoworkers to bitch about. Get over it, the UAW isn't going anywhere- and THATS what you don't like.

 

The problem the uaw has is that a majority of its members are getting paid above market wages for the job they are doing and everyone knows it.

Are you telling me that they couldn't fill the majority of the positions in an auto plant for $20 and some decent benefits?

 

You folks can say you negotiated those wages but it's pretty tough to negotiate when you have a many billion dollar plant with no possibility of relocating and no possibility of bypassing the union due to labor laws . They could take the losses of a strike or they could settle for just a little less than the strike would cost them. Wohoo big win we took a hit for a little less than the cost of a 1 month strike. That strategy was extremely successful for the uaw but it wasn’t going to work forever. Sooner or later the excessive labor costs were going to become more visible as margins shrunk. Any sane person who is running one of these companies would have labor costs at the top of his/her list of things needing to be cut.

 

This is kind of like OJ finally getting thrown in the slammer, it kind of affirms that things do work out in the long run usually.

[davdog]

I need to take them off, PAAAALEASE!!!! All kinds of new jobs popping up all the time??? Well I guess we need to tell the unemployed that seeming that they can't find jobs right now and so many others laying off workers of all types.

This is what will happen in the future, mark my words on this. In the medical field, when it finally gets saturated, they will be the next ones to get hammered due to getting payed too much, no one will be able to afford healthcare and government will have to take that over because they never acted now, wont's in the future and they didn't act in the past.

 

what kind of awesome jobs will they get???? A service job, is that what we want this country to be?

 

NO, what's going away are the days of getting out of high school and going straight into a job that will take you to the "American Dream."

But you know what? It's been that way for a while now.

A 4 year degree today is the equivalent of a high school diploma of 40 years ago.

There are so many jobs out there that deliver real products that I'm not going to sit here and list them.

[jm2607]

NO, what's going away are the days of getting out of high school and going straight into a job that will take you to the "American Dream."

But you know what? It's been that way for a while now.

A 4 year degree today is the equivalent of a high school diploma of 40 years ago.

There are so many jobs out there that deliver real products that I'm not going to sit here and list them.

"so many jobs out there"----they may "deliver real products" BUT ARE THEY HIRING????? Go ahead, list them.

[davdog]

"so many jobs out there"----they may "deliver real products" BUT ARE THEY HIRING????? Go ahead, list them.

 

To start with, I've got two open reqs, one for a senior SAN/VMware guy and one for an entry level system admin.

[simplesituations]

The problem the uaw has is that a majority of its members are getting paid above market wages for the job they are doing and everyone knows it.

Are you telling me that they couldn't fill the majority of the positions in an auto plant for $20 and some decent benefits?

 

You folks can say you negotiated those wages but it's pretty tough to negotiate when you have a many billion dollar plant with no possibility of relocating and no possibility of bypassing the union due to labor laws . They could take the losses of a strike or they could settle for just a little less than the strike would cost them. Wohoo big win we took a hit for a little less than the cost of a 1 month strike. That strategy was extremely successful for the uaw but it wasn’t going to work forever. Sooner or later the excessive labor costs were going to become more visible as margins shrunk. Any sane person who is running one of these companies would have labor costs at the top of his/her list of things needing to be cut.

 

This is kind of like OJ finally getting thrown in the slammer, it kind of affirms that things do work out in the long run usually.

Where do you get the term way overpaid?? You just don't do your research, the transpalnts are in line of what the UAW makes. Oh, you must be one of the people that believe that the pay is $72/hr which is so off base because retirees are included in that number and you still wanna live in the past about strikes.

If you wanna really talk about pay then maybe the UAW needs to come up in pay since the Toyota pays $30.52 and hour. I guess that tells me that the UAW isn't at market value. But I guess you don't take into account that different states are more expensive to live than others which makes a difference.

 

Then what should be labor costs since you wanna use the term "excessive" so much. The labor cost in a restaurant can be 15 to 20% and maybe they should cut that down to 5% and you can wait an hour and a half for your food. Do you wanna talk about food cost too, that can be 25 to 30% and not even talking about anything else like utilities and such. So next time you pay $30 for a steak, think about what goes into it. So I guess the cost of $2500 of labor per car at $30,000 is too much to you but what about the rest of the money. What about the cost of engineering the car, utilities, material cost, and so much more. Oh and also big payouts to the top brass and that's ok with you

 

So basically you are saying is instead if the USA being the leaders, we need to conform to the rest of the world and come down to their level standard of living and not ours. We can be all worker Bee's and know our roll. That's what it sounds like you want it to be like.

[davdog]

Where do you get the term way overpaid?? You just don't do your research, the transpalnts are in line of what the UAW makes. Oh, you must be one of the people that believe that the pay is $72/hr which is so off base because retirees are included in that number and you still wanna live in the past about strikes.

If you wanna really talk about pay then maybe the UAW needs to come up in pay since the Toyota pays $30.52 and hour. I guess that tells me that the UAW isn't at market value. But I guess you don't take into account that different states are more expensive to live than others which makes a difference.

 

Then what should be labor costs since you wanna use the term "excessive" so much. The labor cost in a restaurant can be 15 to 20% and maybe they should cut that down to 5% and you can wait an hour and a half for your food. Do you wanna talk about food cost too, that can be 25 to 30% and not even talking about anything else like utilities and such. So next time you pay $30 for a steak, think about what goes into it. So I guess the cost of $2500 of labor per car at $30,000 is too much to you but what about the rest of the money. What about the cost of engineering the car, utilities, material cost, and so much more. Oh and also big payouts to the top brass and that's ok with you

 

So basically you are saying is instead if the USA being the leaders, we need to conform to the rest of the world and come down to their level standard of living and not ours. We can be all worker Bee's and know our roll. That's what it sounds like you want it to be like.

 

that's an old and tired comeback. I know what you make roughly. You skipped this question.

 

Are you telling me that they couldn't fill the majority of the positions in an auto plant for $20 and some decent benefits?

If they could then you are overpaid, and we both know they could fill those slots even in the state of Michigan.

 

I think we all realize the transplants pay what they do to keep the uaw out.

[simplesituations]

that's an old and tired comeback. I know what you make roughly. You skipped this question.

 

Are you telling me that they couldn't fill the majority of the positions in an auto plant for $20 and some decent benefits?

If they could then you are overpaid, and we both know they could fill those slots even in the state of Michigan.

 

I think we all realize the transplants pay what they do to keep the uaw out.

And what question did I miss???? That's starting pay, just like any new hires as it's the same in the UAW

 

they pay what they do because the standards were set as you claimed.

 

It just sounds like you want autoworkers to be beneath you and that's it, but maybe we can get a bunch of monkeys to work with computers and everyone can be happy since it only pays in bananas

Edited December 21, 2008 by simplesituations

[bondo007]

It is not a question of how much a UAW member is paid. The point of contention is do they earn what they make. The link to the video I posted yesterday shows UAW members definitely caught drinking at bars when they should be at work earning the money they fell they deserve. I have no problem with people who go to work and put in a diligent 8 hours and earn what they make. What I grow tired of is seeing this kind of behavior from grown men, leaving work to go drink at a bar, while they are on the clock.

 

The bigger problem is that they will not be fired! I work in transportation design and I have seen several people fired on the spot for drinking alcohol on the work premises or returning to work after ingesting alcohol. Unfortunatly, the UAW members in the video are protected by their fellow members and UAW management. For far too long the UAW has acted like a spoiled child and got by with way too much. All I ask is that the UAW members ask themselves, do I work a full day and earn my paycheck, or did I get to the man today and get paid for working at getting out of work. I have seen the latter so many times and I have been in the auto business, in design, since 1982.

 

I hope those guys in the video get some help. The whole undercover report was caused by a concerned wife calling a local TV station because she was afraid her husband my get hurt going back to work drunk! That is dangerous and shows a blazen lack of respect for those in the workplace. All I ask is that you the UAW members look in the mirror and ask yourself, did I work a diligent 8 hours today? Did I perform to the best of my ability? Did I earn the money I was paid today?

 

If you can honestly answer yes to these three questions, then you are not fooling yourself. For you see, you are not fooling any of us.

[simplesituations]

It is not a question of how much a UAW member is paid. The point of contention is do they earn what they make. The link to the video I posted yesterday shows UAW members definitely caught drinking at bars when they should be at work earning the money they fell they deserve. I have no problem with people who go to work and put in a diligent 8 hours and earn what they make. What I grow tired of is seeing this kind of behavior from grown men, leaving work to go drink at a bar, while they are on the clock.

 

The bigger problem is that they will not be fired! I work in transportation design and I have seen several people fired on the spot for drinking alcohol on the work premises or returning to work after ingesting alcohol. Unfortunatly, the UAW members in the video are protected by their fellow members and UAW management. For far too long the UAW has acted like a spoiled child and got by with way too much. All I ask is that the UAW members ask themselves, do I work a full day and earn my paycheck, or did I get to the man today and get paid for working at getting out of work. I have seen the latter so many times and I have been in the auto business, in design, since 1982.

 

I hope those guys in the video get some help. The whole undercover report was caused by a concerned wife calling a local TV station because she was afraid her husband my get hurt going back to work drunk! That is dangerous and shows a blazen lack of respect for those in the workplace. All I ask is that you the UAW members look in the mirror and ask yourself, did I work a diligent 8 hours today? Did I perform to the best of my ability? Did I earn the money I was paid today?

 

If you can honestly answer yes to these three questions, then you are not fooling yourself. For you see, you are not fooling any of us.

the video you posted is old and those guys have been dealt with more than you think and to answer all 3 of your questions is Yes.

 

You along with so many other people are stuck in the past. All we want is to be paid fairly and we do. Enough said

[simplesituations]

Quit putting all member into one category. That's like saying all Muslims are terrorists and you know that's not true.

[96 Pony]

I started to respond to some of these posts and then I got thoroughly disgusted. So I will just leave it at this:

 

Remember when we could buy televisions made in the U.S.A.?

 

Zenith, Motorola and RCA are where now?

 

Here endeth the lesson.

[ANTAUS]

There's quite some bickering back and fourth on the issue, but to sum it up...many citizens seem to be upset at some of the pay rates they are hearing. This isn't just for the UAW, but for all these executives of all these financial companies... and now that many are having severe economic problems, and the media is reporting some of the obscene pays/bene/pensions, they are starting to ask questions and they aren't happy.

 

This isn't just at the national news level, but even in local news you'll find that as well. I know in my neighborhood we are finding out the rediculous amount of overtime the Fire Dept is racking up... how top management heavy they are...taking the ladder truck out to get one item at the local market? Buying fire trucks every 4-6 years... Now that they are finding out how much of their property taxes if funding their caviar tastes and residents aren't happy.

 

I think as more people are hurting you'll see citizens asking not only MORE questions, but more intuitive questions..and not surprisingly, they are shocked at what they are hearing...

[simplesituations]

There's quite some bickering back and fourth on the issue, but to sum it up...many citizens seem to be upset at some of the pay rates they are hearing. This isn't just for the UAW, but for all these executives of all these financial companies... and now that many are having severe economic problems, and the media is reporting some of the obscene pays/bene/pensions, they are starting to ask questions and they aren't happy.

 

This isn't just at the national news level, but even in local news you'll find that as well. I know in my neighborhood we are finding out the rediculous amount of overtime the Fire Dept is racking up... how top management heavy they are...taking the ladder truck out to get one item at the local market? Buying fire trucks every 4-6 years... Now that they are finding out how much of their property taxes if funding their caviar tastes and residents aren't happy.

 

I think as more people are hurting you'll see citizens asking not only MORE questions, but more intuitive questions..and not surprisingly, they are shocked at what they are hearing...

Sure there's all kinds of issues pertaining to this, but to solely put the blame on unions is hogwash. Why should I or anybody else take a pay cut and sacrifice my way of a nice living solely on the bad decisions made from the Nasser days and even before that. This overpaid nonsense needs to stop but if I sit at a desk working on a computer and getting paid $90,000/yr that's okay, but getting paid less than $55,000/yr tearing your body apart like broken fingers, cuts, getting hit by moving parts or even death, that's getting over paid, yea right. Oh yea we people at the plant work with computers to set machines up, work with gauges, micrometers, tooling to make quality parts but some people seem to think we just stand there and do nothing.

 

Antaus, I have no beef with you, just venting on how I feel. I respect all peoples opinions but when you go after my way of life, I'll take it personal, especially if you haven't walked the shoes that people claim are getting over paid. I respect you and read plenty of your post and you seem very open minded and i thank you

Edited December 21, 2008 by simplesituations

[simplesituations]

Oh, before I forget, if someone is making $60,000-$140,000/yr, I would say great and more power to ya but when someone says I'm overpaid, I take offense and have issues with that.

 

Thank you and have a good night

[navlys32]

But wages aren't even the biggest problem - it's the FORCED jobs bank and other work rules that handcuff the mfrs.

 

Make the jobs bank optional at the company's discretion - just like every other business. If it makes sense to keep people on payroll they will. If not they won't. It shouldn't be mandatory.

 

Give the companies flexibility to address health care costs by increasing copays or decreasing benefits as necessary. Just like every other company has been doing for decades.

 

Give the companies the ability to lay people off as necessary. Negotiate early retirements and good severance packages to help but accept that in some cases workers have to leave the payroll.

 

Work out a deal between Ford, GM and Chrysler so workers can transfer and retain their benefits.

 

Allow unproductive employees to be disciplined or terminated for cause - just like every other business.

 

 

Bingo!!! good post. couldnt agree more!!

 

But I do think the auto workers are a vital part for any auto manufacture so its unfortunant auto workers cant find a better way to be more flexible and to represent themselves other than the obsolete UAW which has been demonized by congress.

 

 

 

so if labor cost is 10 percent of a car, how much is legacy and retiree cost? an additional 10 percent? 20?

Edited December 21, 2008 by navlys32

[simplesituations]

Bingo!!! good post. couldnt agree more!!

 

But I do think the auto workers are a vital part for any auto manufacture so its unfortunant auto workers cant find a better way to be more flexible and to represent themselves other than the obsolete UAW which has been demonized by congress.

 

 

 

so if labor cost is 10 percent of a car, how much is legacy and retiree cost? an additional 10 percent? 20?

So the jobs bank that Toyota has should stay???? The UAW has been changing but I guess not a single person wants to realize that and keep bringing up the words like handcuffed, extortion, the UAW is the cause of all evil in the world.

 

All that stuff that was mentioned by akirby has been discussed but we can keep rehashing the old and keep beating a dead horse.

[pdmustgt]

It's not so much picking on your union. It's just we see what they make doing a simple job a unskilled. I'm mechanic it's sicking seeing a guy getting paid 30.00 a hour to push a button on a press WOW what skill that is. I buy my tools go to many training programs, schooling plus using your brain to find problems that no training can teach. Kicker part they make more than me. Funny part that factory is closed since they have no real training they have to start over. That Next you going to say go union HELL NO plus I make more than the union shops in my area and don't have union dues.

 

UAW has bullied the auto manufactures in the pass when they was selling cars and trucks. So to keep the plants going and not stop production they gave in. But times are tight either you going to have to take a cut or just loose your jobs all together. The reason why the UAW is pressing the Gov to help is to save there retirement.

 

The other thing your union spend your money on to get poeple elected into office. Shouldn't that stay in the union instead of wasting your money. You must be paying to much on dues if they have money to gave away on trying to get poeple elected.

[Critic]

It's not so much picking on your union. It's just we see what they make doing a simple job a unskilled. I'm mechanic it's sicking seeing a guy getting paid 30.00 a hour to push a button on a press WOW what skill that is. I buy my tools go to many training programs, schooling plus using your brain to find problems that no training can teach. Kicker part they make more than me. Funny part that factory is closed since they have no real training they have to start over. That Next you going to say go union HELL NO plus I make more than the union shops in my area and don't have union dues.

 

UAW has bullied the auto manufactures in the pass when they was selling cars and trucks. So to keep the plants going and not stop production they gave in. But times are tight either you going to have to take a cut or just loose your jobs all together. The reason why the UAW is pressing the Gov to help is to save there retirement.

 

The other thing your union spend your money on to get poeple elected into office. Shouldn't that stay in the union instead of wasting your money. You must be paying to much on dues if they have money to gave away on trying to get poeple elected.

It's so unbelievable these answers floating around here. No, it's such small-minded thoughts that get us to this point. I'm better than you because I bought some tools and I did this. Or I make 80 to 140K because my boss can't find anyone to do it cheaper. Your all sitting here able to write this because someone else did something to allow you to be able to say how much better you are than the next person, because you judge yourself by what you have and the other person doesn't. OR, I can grab the plate of food faster than you, so that makes me superior.

 

Until you can secure your ability to live completely and totally without one external help in anyway, your no more better than anyone else. Someone designed the equipment to produce electricity and someone dug coal to operate a power-plant, meanwhile someone grew food so a miner could dig coal and someone provided fuel so the farmer could operate a machine and grow the food so the miner could dig coal and a person could make a machine to provide electricity so you could sit and say how much superior I am because I can do this and you can't. And I judge how much superior I am by how much someone else is willing to pay me, until someone else is willing to undercut me and do it cheaper than I. And onward and onward goes the downward spiral.

 

It's tear the other person down to make yourself feel better about yourself day.