UAW hails auto bailout but will work to remove 'unfair conditions'

[simplesituations]

people look at the unions so harshly is because of its past in other industries: Please explain the past

Walter Reuther???

 

I feel that everyone should pay for their own retirement like a TSP, 401K, mutual funds,and IRA's because trusting in someone else to do it is an accident waiting : So all the money I've paid into Social Security is a donation for the Government to abuse?

 

union worker write out of high school? Did you mean right or was the person writing something? Please explain

 

so looking unbiasedly at both of those pictures I understand the frustration of everyone else and the union worker.

I don't! It's like the game called Life you know as you go around the board there are decisions that have to be made go to college, get a job, get married, have kids etc. So people get pissed that the decision they made didn't work to the best of their advantage, so the answer is to attack the people who had better luck. Yeah that makes sense.... If I have to take a pay cut then everybody should.....yeah okay then if I get cancer then everybody should get cancer, right I mean we are talking about shared sacrifice here.

 

If you want to put something under the microscope start with the government and failed trade policies.

And for neglecting our domestic policies and infrastructure!

 

I give the government 90 days to see positive results on a domestic agenda!

 

I want a national health care plan that covers all Americans, with the tax payer money that has gone into research and development of cures and treatments of illnesses I feel I've paid for my health care in advance.

I don't want to see any more bridge collapses like in Minnesota, my tax money help build the highway and bridge systems I grade the government failing to maintain the system. We had 750 billion for Irag, 700 billion for the banking system, did we demand pay cuts from the top CEO's and managers? Why not, they failed didn't they!

What has Congress and the Senate done to improve the US lately, record deficit, no domestic oversight are they not the checks and balances of the Executive Branch. They should take a pay cut, the President should be working for a dollar a year until the country is financially stable and then pay increases should be voter approved. The Senate wants to dictate what Union workers make in compensation, they want to grade my abilities, hey they work for me I don't work for them. It's easy to give your self a raise when you hold the purse strings, well HOW DARE YOU COME AT ME AND TALK ABOUT MY WAGES, YOU USELESS PIECE OF SHIT!

 

Sorry I tried to remain nice, but sometimes you have to call them as you see them. Happy New Year!

 

Lets just put it at this conclusion, most people want the UAW to die cause they view it as the unions fault for companies not surviving when the issues have been compiling since the Reagan days and continued through the last of the Bush days. So many people here don't see what the real big picture is all coming from policies of the gov't but just go after the little man and his wages whether union or non union. People claim that people can make too much on an hourly basis but then try to figure out "can I replace this person for cheaper" if he/she asks for a raise. With continued mind set to get labor on the cheap has put this country and the economy to 2nd world toward 3rd world wages. It's the policies or lack of policies of this gov't that has put this country in trouble but it's the wages of the working man that people keep blaming as this issue here.

Edited December 28, 2008 by simplesituations

[nvsked]

Lets just put it at this conclusion, most people want the UAW to die cause they view it as the unions fault for companies not surviving when the issues have been compiling since the Reagan days and continued through the last of the Bush days. So many people here don't see what the real big picture is all coming from policies of the gov't but just go after the little man and his wages whether union or non union. People claim that people can make too much on an hourly basis but then try to figure out "can I replace this person for cheaper" if he/she asks for a raise. With continued mind set to get labor on the cheap has put this country and the economy to 2nd world toward 3rd world wages. It's the policies or lack of policies of this gov't that has put this country in trouble but it's the wages of the working man that people keep blaming as this issue here.

 

 

Well said...except it should be working person. Non-gender specific

[simplesituations]

Well said...except it should be working person. Non-gender specific

I meant to put it that way but you're right, it's all whether female or male

[Ralph Greene]

I don't think people hate Unions. They know there was a time when Unions came to the aid of overworked underpaid workers during the early years of the industrial revolution. When business owners took advantage of workers bcause there were no laws o protect them. This also was a time when there were no child labor laws. So the Unions paid an important part in the history of our country. And this history should be acknowledged and taught. I have great respect for the history of the UAW, and what it did.

 

However....times are now different. And the day of the need for a Union is past. You cannot compete in the automobile business in the US with a Union work force. I know this, you know this, Congress knows this, and President Bush knows this. Sure....you can talk all you want about what issues the Union will yield on, but that is how the Union works. They see everything as a negotiation.

 

In order for Ford, GM, and Chrysler to really compete with the southern competitors, the labor costs of the D 3 have to be the same overall. That's the botom line. However you get to that point probably doesn't matter. There are also other fairness issues to work out as well, regarding favorable treatment to the non union shops, and I imagine that needs to be addressed as well. But I don't see this as us hating you Union workers. I feel nothing but sadness, as one more American institution gets destroyed by global competition. We lost the textile business, the furniture business, and now the auto business is in jeopardy. At least there is a chance it can survive as a lean manufacturing industry.

 

Economics teaches us that "creative destruction" eventually happens to all industries, and new takes the place of the old. New industries are created that offer even higher paying jobs than the ones that are lost....example Microsoft, Goggle, Apple, and innovative compamies like that. Companies that were once leaders and innovators, fall by the wayside, and get replaced. It's a natural process. In the past century, there have been over 100 US companies manufacturing automobiles, and they are gone, with only 3 left. This process did not start this year.

Edited December 28, 2008 by Ralph Greene

[jpd80]

The people I feel most sorry for are the stock holders.

 

Think about it, they invested in the Auto industry to make money - that hasn't happened for years.

Everyone else keeps getting paid and paid well all the way from the Gardener to the CEO and Board.

The Stock holders keep getting put off and their stock value has plummeted - imagine if your income

fell to a fraction of what it was three years ago.

 

I wonder what Larry the Liquidator would say:

Other People's money

 

Edit,

This post is not intended as an attack on the UAW

I know others are keen to do that but my empathy is with investors.

Edited December 29, 2008 by jpd80

[nvsked]

I don't think people hate Unions. They know there was a time when Unions came to the aid of overworked underpaid workers during the early years of the industrial revolution. When business owners took advantage of workers bcause there were no laws o protect them. This also was a time when there were no child labor laws. So the Unions paid an important part in the history of our country. And this history should be acknowledged and taught. I have great respect for the history of the UAW, and what it did.

 

However....times are now different. And the day of the need for a Union is past. You cannot compete in the automobile business with a Union work force. I know this, you know this, Congress knows this, and President Bush knows this. Sure....you can talk all you want about what issues the Union will yield on, but that is how the Union works. They see everything as a negotiation.

 

In order for Ford, GM, and Chrysler to really compete with the southern competitors, the labor costs of the D 3 have to be the same overall. That's the botom line. However you get to that point probably doesn't matter. There are also other fairness issues to work out as well, regarding favorable treatment to the non union shops, and I imagine that needs to be addressed as well. But I don't see this as us hating you Union workers. I feel nothing but sadness, as one more American institution gets destroyed by global competition.

 

You know what, you make me want to Ralph....I'm glad someone has it all figured out, have you ever been inside an automotive business. You've seen the money that is wasted on bull shit processes, flavor of the month shit starting with Trottman and Ford 2000, the Golden Parachutes for Nasser and his global perspective. Ford will capture the automotive world with the Premier Group, it took an outsider to come in and make some common sense moves, something an insider couldn't do because they were institutionalized by growing up in the Ford System. Lets not forget Padilla and all the others, I wish I would have kept the list going just so I could point to the millions being spent on past salaries.

 

Laws my ass...have you kept record of the people who have died in Ford plants in past couple years! Have you ever tried to work within the institution known as Ford and tried to effect change in a positive manner.

The salary people I know walk through life with blinders on, repeating the sentence, I'm doing what my boss told me to do. Otherwise they know they will have their head caved in or a pink slip. Rule by intimidation, and those damn UAW people walk around like their human or something.

 

All those labor laws you speak of are now rolled into NAFTA, brought about by tried and true American Businesses like Wal-Mart. The problem with the UAW and any other unions you speak of is they see people as human beings not a profit loss statement.

 

You want to get rid of Unions, good, I'll go along with that. But then we get rid of all the Fucking lobbyist in the US. Former House and Senate people no longer have access to floors of Congress or the Senate, their banned from working for Lobbyist. We have public funded elections no soft money anywhere. Politicians run on the issues.

 

The people in the south (members of my immediate family) HATE government involvement in their life, why do you think the transplants locate there. Remember the war between the states, some of those ancestors are still alive in the south, they don't trust the government, they don't trust unions, and the republican machine tries to play to those strengths. So take Bush and all his buddies because they're laughing all the way to bank with the money they made off of like minded individuals like yourself.

 

You want fairness, talk to your elected representatives in the House or the Senate, or you could form a UNION. :hysterical: :hysterical:

[simplesituations]

The people I feel most sorry for are the stock holders.

 

Think about it, they invested in the Auto industry to make money - that hasn't happened for years.

Everyone else keeps getting paid and paid well all the way from the Gardener to the CEO and Board.

The Stock holders keep getting put off and their stock value has plummeted - imagine if your income

fell to a fraction of what it was three years ago.

 

I wonder what Larry the Liquidator would say:

Other People's money

 

Edit,

This post is not intended as an attack on the UAW

I know others are keen to do that but my empathy is with investors.

So I guess the workers don't own any stock in the company according to you

[jpd80]

So I guess the workers don't own any stock in the company according to you

You talk in extremes but I'll try again:

Everyone else to do with the Auto industry has been paid except for the investors.

 

Employees holding stock is common and as such have not seen a return on their money.

I know people that use those investments as a form of pension and they are now broke.

Edited December 29, 2008 by jpd80

[simplesituations]

You talk in extremes but I'll try again:

Everyone else to do with the Auto industry has been paid except for the investors.

 

Employees holding stock is common and as such have not seen a return on their money.

I know people that use those investments as a form of pension and they are now broke.

you jump to conclusions, I do have stock outside outside of my 401k but what stock hasn't taken a beating

[jpd80]

you jump to conclusions, I do have stock outside outside of my 401k but what stock hasn't taken a beating

Apology for assuming.

Lots of stocks have taken a battereing but I do recall a lot of Moms amd dads pension funds were investing in GM, Ford and Chrysler a couple of years ago. It's them I feel for.

Edited December 29, 2008 by jpd80

[Ralph Greene]

You know what, you make me want to Ralph....I'm glad someone has it all figured out, have you ever been inside an automotive business. You've seen the money that is wasted on bull shit processes, flavor of the month shit starting with Trottman and Ford 2000, the Golden Parachutes for Nasser and his global perspective. Ford will capture the automotive world with the Premier Group, it took an outsider to come in and make some common sense moves, something an insider couldn't do because they were institutionalized by growing up in the Ford System. Lets not forget Padilla and all the others, I wish I would have kept the list going just so I could point to the millions being spent on past salaries.

 

Laws my ass...have you kept record of the people who have died in Ford plants in past couple years! Have you ever tried to work within the institution known as Ford and tried to effect change in a positive manner.

The salary people I know walk through life with blinders on, repeating the sentence, I'm doing what my boss told me to do. Otherwise they know they will have their head caved in or a pink slip. Rule by intimidation, and those damn UAW people walk around like their human or something.

 

All those labor laws you speak of are now rolled into NAFTA, brought about by tried and true American Businesses like Wal-Mart. The problem with the UAW and any other unions you speak of is they see people as human beings not a profit loss statement.

 

You want to get rid of Unions, good, I'll go along with that. But then we get rid of all the Fucking lobbyist in the US. Former House and Senate people no longer have access to floors of Congress or the Senate, their banned from working for Lobbyist. We have public funded elections no soft money anywhere. Politicians run on the issues.

 

The people in the south (members of my immediate family) HATE government involvement in their life, why do you think the transplants locate there. Remember the war between the states, some of those ancestors are still alive in the south, they don't trust the government, they don't trust unions, and the republican machine tries to play to those strengths. So take Bush and all his buddies because they're laughing all the way to bank with the money they made off of like minded individuals like yourself.

 

You want fairness, talk to your elected representatives in the House or the Senate, or you could form a UNION. :hysterical: :hysterical:

 

I retired 10 years ago from Merrill Lynch. A company that is now gone. It was a company that paid extremely high wages. But it's business model no longer worked in the 21 st century, and profits began to slide.

 

In order to keep profits high, and to contunue paying high wages, Merrill Lynch began to leverage the company into the trading and packaging of mortgages. This didn't work. They gambled with the company and lost the company. Same thing happened to all the Wall Street firms. These were the Investment companies that were responsible for bringing all our great public companies to market, and making it so the ordinary working person could own a share of America. They are all gone now. And employees (and retirees) lost billions. No one has offered yet to send me a check.

 

So it's not just manufacturing that's going thru this natural process. All industries go thru this creative destruction process. Seen any manufacturers of 8 tracks lately? I memtioned Microsoft as an example of a new kind of company. But it's days are numbered also I think, as new innovators take it's place.

 

Unfortunately....it's a mean tough world.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Ralph Greene

[Pioneer]

united auto workers= big snotnosed crybaby bullies.

 

 

mustangman9494 = all talk.

 

What's the matter? Can't make up sufficient answers to my questions?

[TomServo92]

Does this mean something???

 

It means he agrees with you.

[nvsked]

It means he agrees with you.

 

Thanks for the translation. Sorry, but you know us simple autoworkers.

[nvsked]

I retired 10 years ago from Merrill Lynch. A company that is now gone. It was a company that paid extremely high wages. But it's business model no longer worked in the 21 st century, and profits began to slide.

 

In order to keep profits high, and to contunue paying high wages, Merrill Lynch began to leverage the company into the trading and packaging of mortgages. This didn't work. They gambled with the company and lost the company. Same thing happened to all the Wall Street firms. These were the Investment companies that were responsible for bringing all our great public companies to market, and making it so the ordinary working person could own a share of America. They are all gone now. And employees (and retirees) lost billions. No one has offered yet to send me a check.

 

So it's not just manufacturing that's going thru this natural process. All industries go thru this creative destruction process. Seen any manufacturers of 8 tracks lately? I memtioned Microsoft as an example of a new kind of company. But it's days are numbered also I think, as new innovators take it's place.

 

Unfortunately....it's a mean tough world.

 

So what are you saying Merrill Lynch is bullshitist on America....The investment companies brought Ford to market. All those history books talking about Ford, Edison and Firestone when all along it was the investment bankers.

 

Thank heavens for investment banking, where would the country be without them, and the golf resorts what would they do..... Probably sit around and bitch how Unions brought this country to it's knees.

Damn Unions.......

[jpd80]

Thank heavens for investment banking, where would the country be without them,

Where we were two months ago.....

Thanks to TARP we don't have to find out how to live without them.. :shades:

Edited December 29, 2008 by jpd80

[mnm]

So what are you saying Merrill Lynch is bullshitist on America....The investment companies brought Ford to market. All those history books talking about Ford, Edison and Firestone when all along it was the investment bankers.

 

Thank heavens for investment banking, where would the country be without them, and the golf resorts what would they do..... Probably sit around and bitch how Unions brought this country to it's knees.

Damn Unions.......

:party2: nvsked=my favorite on BON

[Ralph Greene]

What I'm saying is industries come and go, and get replaced by other industries. As older industries become irrelevant to our society, our economic system replaces them. That is a process economists call "creative destruction". I am seeing that phrase used a lot these days.

 

Merrill Lynch (and others), after a 100 year history, became irrelevant. They could not accept lower wages and profits, so gambled with their company to maintain those levels of wages and corporate profits, and lost. They will become a division of Bank Of America, and be just a shell of their former self. I will get some Bank Of American stock for my Merrill shares, and life goes on. I may or may not make the money back some day. But this is how the system works. I understand that.

 

I can sit here and talk about this as if we were sitting in an economics class talking in the abstract. But this is personal and we are not in a class room. The financial loss to each of us is an emotional one, and tough to accept. The Union guys are reacting in a natural emotional way, as they watch their old way of life go away. I'm just saying I understand their pain, but have no answers about how to stop a natural economic process.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Ralph Greene

[nvsked]

What I'm saying is industries come and go, and get replaced by other industries. As older industries become irrelevant to our society, our economic system replaces them. That is a process economists call "creative destructive". I am seeing that phrase used a lot these days.

 

Merrill Lynch (and others), after a 100 year history, became irrelevant. They could not accept lower wages and profits, so gambled with their company to maintain those levels of wages and corporate profits, and lost.

 

I can sit here and talk about this as if we were sitting in an economics class talking in the abstract. But this is personal and we are not in a class room. The financial loss to each of us is an emotional one, and tough to accept. The Union guys are reacting in a natural emotional way, as they watch their old way of life go away. I'm just saying I understand their pain, but have no answers about how to stop a natural economic process.

 

I don't entirely disagree with what you say, and at some point if the automotive sector doesn't work on some internal weakness they too will replaced by new technology. I don't see this happening in the next five years but I don't disagree with your assessment either.

 

I think solar energy is an emerging area. We will need to replace aging fossil fuel plants, and industries like Westinghouse and General Electric will be key in some of this. Regardless of the company, the wages, and benefits, that the industry pays are the reason that the industry attracts top tier talent. Which is the reason Ford offered his $5.00 a day wage way back when.

 

But when internal, and external, forces become such a factor within the operating structure of the company, that the company requires workers to work for free (Wal-Mart), or the company requires the worker to endanger their life in order to put food on the table, the worker needs a voice of reason to deal with those forces.

 

Which is where a union plays a role. You know the United States the voice of reason against British rule.

United Autoworkers voice of reason against external pressures such as investment banking, depraved politicians. The union is not there as a deterrent to growth, but again the voice of reason. If Merrill Lynch workers would of had a voice in the operation of the company, maybe some of the decisions that took the company down would have been different.

 

I'm sorry you feel Unions are irrelevant, but just as the Union played a role in the social order of things in the 20th Century, it's the goal of the Union to bring about social change that strengthens the United States for all working people. A national health care plan, strengthening our social security program, removing trade barriers that put the USA at a competitive disadvantage etc. It's a tough task given all the opposition from companies that are willing to exploit the US for that bottom line, but I have a vested interest, my children and grand children. Enough said Ralph, I hope you are enjoying your retirement from Merrill Lynch, have a Happy Prosperous New Year.

[bondo007]

What I'm saying is industries come and go, and get replaced by other industries. As older industries become irrelevant to our society, our economic system replaces them. That is a process economists call "creative destruction". I am seeing that phrase used a lot these days.

 

Merrill Lynch (and others), after a 100 year history, became irrelevant. They could not accept lower wages and profits, so gambled with their company to maintain those levels of wages and corporate profits, and lost. They will become a division of Bank Of America, and be just a shell of their former self. I will get some Bank Of American stock for my Merrill shares, and life goes on. I may or may not make the money back some day. But this is how the system works. I understand that.

 

I can sit here and talk about this as if we were sitting in an economics class talking in the abstract. But this is personal and we are not in a class room. The financial loss to each of us is an emotional one, and tough to accept. The Union guys are reacting in a natural emotional way, as they watch their old way of life go away. I'm just saying I understand their pain, but have no answers about how to stop a natural economic process.

 

 

"Creative destruction". What we need is "creative construction". The real estate boom was just the latest in a series of "financial vehicles" which were driven into the ditch. Savings and loan scandal, dot com stocks, (remember pump and dump), which were all bubble markets that popped! The problem with the latest real estate bubble burst is that the vehicle was a bus and all the taxpayers of the United States are along for the ride. It was all due to high risk mortgages being bundled into neat little packages and sold off to foriegn banks and other buyers for commissions. These neat lttle bundles were insured by unregulated credit default swaps to reduce the risk. When the whole thing started to collapse this fall our Legislators in Washington were told by Paulson that if they didn't come up with 700 billion to bail out the banks and investment houses, like Merrill Lynch, there would be a collapse in the banking system and Martial Law may have to be declared. "Too big to fail" was the buzz term used. Congress took the bait and now, we the taxpayers, are stuck with the bill. We, the people, are paying for the risk taken, by the Wall Street geniuses and their algorithmic mathematics, in the subprime mortgage driven real estate bubble which just blew up! It is theft, pure and simple. It is definitely "creative destruction". It is true, however, that nothing was created and the future of available credit in this country for small business and such has been destroyed.

 

On the other hand, "creative construction" is something like manufacturing, like building an automobile! There is no speculative hand switching of billions in Capital, there is only the production of a durable good which fills a need. I have been somewhat harse to the men and women who build the domestic automobile here in the United States. No MORE! I now turn my glare on the Wall Street gang who fly over head in their Gulfstreams and Falcon Jets toasting single malt Scotch to one another on how smart they have been in pulling off the largest theft of taxpayer money in history! Cheers!

 

What an irony it is that the heads of the Big 3 were chastised by Congress for flying to Washington in their corporate jets.

[Ralph Greene]

I don't entirely disagree with what you say, and at some point if the automotive sector doesn't work on some internal weakness they too will replaced by new technology. I don't see this happening in the next five years but I don't disagree with your assessment either.

 

I think solar energy is an emerging area. We will need to replace aging fossil fuel plants, and industries like Westinghouse and General Electric will be key in some of this. Regardless of the company, the wages, and benefits, that the industry pays are the reason that the industry attracts top tier talent. Which is the reason Ford offered his $5.00 a day wage way back when.

 

But when internal, and external, forces become such a factor within the operating structure of the company, that the company requires workers to work for free (Wal-Mart), or the company requires the worker to endanger their life in order to put food on the table, the worker needs a voice of reason to deal with those forces.

 

Which is where a union plays a role. You know the United States the voice of reason against British rule.

United Autoworkers voice of reason against external pressures such as investment banking, depraved politicians. The union is not there as a deterrent to growth, but again the voice of reason. If Merrill Lynch workers would of had a voice in the operation of the company, maybe some of the decisions that took the company down would have been different.

 

I'm sorry you feel Unions are irrelevant, but just as the Union played a role in the social order of things in the 20th Century, it's the goal of the Union to bring about social change that strengthens the United States for all working people. A national health care plan, strengthening our social security program, removing trade barriers that put the USA at a competitive disadvantage etc. It's a tough task given all the opposition from companies that are willing to exploit the US for that bottom line, but I have a vested interest, my children and grand children. Enough said Ralph, I hope you are enjoying your retirement from Merrill Lynch, have a Happy Prosperous New Year.

 

You make good reasoned points. Happy New Year to You also.

[mustangman9494]

mustangman9494 = all talk.

 

What's the matter? Can't make up sufficient answers to my questions?

you only prove my point over and over and over your a dinosaur!!! an ancient fossill. in the words of rambo, it,s over jonny, your extinct!!!!!