Ford Halts Plans for RWD Cars

[jpd80]

Big Al doesn't drive a right-hand-drive Falcon around in the U.S. on a regular basis, that much I can assure you of.

 

 

 

The D3 program really hasn't cost anything more than any other regularly-updated program. The '10 redesign likely got moved forward a year, at the most. Aside from that, you're really not talking about an update schedule that's different from any other model, and thusly, it probably didn't cost more than any other vehicle program either.

 

Continual improvement is the new name of the game at Ford. It has been the name of the game at Honda and Toyota for decades. It's about time one of the Detroit 3 caught on.

Oh Nick, they spent an absolute packet on the Taurus and then included an new roof line to boot.

 

Actually, what I was cracking on about is the loss of sales like the unloved Panther.

How many sales would the Fivehundred have today if it had Panthers update budget, Hmmm?

Edited January 12, 2009 by jpd80

[NickF1011]

Oh Nick, they spent an absolute packet on the Taurus and then included an new roof line to boot.

 

Actually, what I was cracking on about is the loss of sales like the unloved Panther.

How many sales would the Fivehundred have today if it had Panthers update budget, Hmmm?

 

We're not going to get into this debate AGAIN. Without concrete numbers from Ford, we have NO idea what they have spent on it, so debating it is pointless.

 

It's tired. It's worn out. Panthers are dead. There is no future for a RWD sedan in Ford's near-term NA lineup. D3's success or failure has no bearing on that fact. Accept it. Embrace it. That's life. We move on.

[jpd80]

We're not going to get into this debate AGAIN. Without concrete numbers from Ford, we have NO idea what they have spent on it, so debating it is pointless.

 

It's tired. It's worn out. Panthers are dead. There is no future for a RWD sedan in Ford's near-term NA lineup. D3's success or failure has no bearing on that fact. Accept it. Embrace it. That's life. We move on.

We do Know that FoA spent Approximately US$450 million on the Falcon and changed A,B and c pillars

as well as new doors, roof line, EUCD Slimline door (Approx $25 million/door) Interior, Trans upgrades.

It was no where near as comprehensive as the Taurus redo/tear up and redo.

 

So there you have it, I now have quite a few less friends.....

[NickF1011]

We do Know that FoA spent Approximately US$450 million on the Falcon and changed A,B and c pillars

as well as new doors, roof line, EUCD Slimline door (Approx $25 million/door) Interior, Trans upgrades.

It was no where near as comprehensive as the Taurus redo/tear up and redo.

 

So there you have it, I now have quite a few less friends.....

 

Here is the difference though: The Falcon spreads those costs across how many platform mates? None.

 

The Taurus spreads those costs across how many platform mates? I'm sure all of them will benefit on at least some level from the improvements done here.

[rkisler]

The money was already spent on what was called internally as Project 123 and one prototype was built.

The reason the I-6 got a reprive was because somebody actually computer modelled the emissions of the I-6 and found that the engine and plant could be upgraded for a mere AUS$21 million - USD$14 million.

 

It was cheaper to keep a castings factory, 600 employees and spend $21 million upgrading the I-6

and engine line than introduce an American engine and transmission.

The drop in power and performance was also considered unacceptable by the engineering team.

 

GRWD project was halted in February, Mulally told us then and FoA were doing the engineering.

The Falcon has not been cancelled and it will remain a regional project until 2013.

 

At the moment, Falcon sedan sales range between 2,500 and 3,500 - not too bad compared to Taurus

I'd be more concerned if Taurus numbers don't come up to scratch, it's flat out beating the old CV!!!

 

 

Now having said all that,

If this Taurus is an example of Ford's new direction, then bring it on and let's make it a global car.

I only hope that Taurus, Fusion and Mondeo all become unified on one large FWD/AWD platform.

That would be something worth changing for, something that really Aces Toyota in the market place.

 

 

The news of the demise of GRWD is no surprise whatsoever to me.

 

As I mentioned previously, I have a couple of T-shirts from previous efforts.

 

The problems with this project are numerous and it makes it very, very difficult to come up with any business case that makes sense. They include the physical separation of manufacturing facilities, product demands, lack of a manufacturing site in NA, and on and on and on. These difficulties haven't changed over the last 20 years or so -- in fact they have gotten worse as Falcon family volumes have declined.

 

But, in the end, for the US market, RWD is not a priority, and the money will have to be spent elsewhere (primarily fuel economy) just to survive.

 

The Panther is dead, dead, dead. There is no need for a car in the showroom bigger than a Taurus or MKS.

 

However, I'm not totally a D3 fan either. It is an extremely robust platform, nice to drive, but expensive. And, for a car, it's.......uhhhhh......a bit unusual. The seating position was set high from the beginning to make entry/egress easier. But that sets up a very tall car -- I think the MKS is about 3" higher but the same length as an S-Class Merc. That makes the proportions unusual. To improve appearance, the beltline of the MKS was moved up, but everything else moved up with it. The doors are quite large with the combination of the height and the fact that the door has to cover the recessed rocker. When you park an MKS next to most anything, it looks massive and out-of-scale. And not necessarily in a good way.

 

Personally, given the cost and other factors, I can see D3 being continued ultimately as a crossover platform, but doing something different next generation for the sedans. But that's going to be quite some time in the future given the new MKS and Taurus and other investment demands. I don't see the D3 platform being planted in Oz. But, I could see FoA being the lead for a next-gen stretched and widened Fusion/Mondeo with local production???

[jpd80]

Here is the difference though: The Falcon spreads those costs across how many platform mates? None.

 

The Taurus spreads those costs across how many platform mates? I'm sure all of them will benefit on at least some level from the improvements done here.

The Taurus spreads those costs across how many platform mates?

Do you mean: Taurus -MKS or do you mean SE, SEL and Limited?

 

If you mean Taurus - MKS I think you'll find the Top hats are unique and not much interchanges.

You'd be lucky if 40-50% of the parts interchange and they're mostly mechanical and electrical.

Your Taurus SE, SEL and Limited are similar to our XT Base, G Luxury Series and XR Sports Series.

 

Edit,

I do like what Ford has done with this Taurus and MKS, I just wish they would market them internationally.

Edited January 12, 2009 by jpd80

[NickF1011]

The Taurus spreads those costs across how many platform mates?

Do you mean: Taurus -MKS or do you mean SE, SEL and Limited?

 

If you mean Taurus - MKS I think you'll find the Top hats are unique and not much interchanges.

You'd be lucky if 40-50% of the parts interchange and they're mostly mechanical and electrical.

Your Taurus SE, SEL and Limited are similar to our XT Base, G Luxury Series and XR Sports Series.

 

Edit,

I do like what Ford has done with this Taurus and MKS, I just wish they would market them internationally.

 

No, I mean ALL of the D3's. Many of the benefits done for the Taurus will be seen on ALL of the D3's in short order, including the crossovers. I'm not talking about sheet metal here. I'm talking about everything under the skin that gets reworked during a refresh -- you know, the part that's probably the most expensive -- that will spread elsewhere to share those costs. Falcon doesn't really have that benefit, except with the Territory I suppose.

[jpd80]

No, I mean ALL of the D3's. Many of the benefits done for the Taurus will be seen on ALL of the D3's in short order, including the crossovers. I'm not talking about sheet metal here. I'm talking about everything under the skin that gets reworked during a refresh -- you know, the part that's probably the most expensive -- that will spread elsewhere to share those costs. Falcon doesn't really have that benefit, except with the Territory I suppose.

The 5-speed and 6- speed autos are sourced from FoE.

New Territory is next probably this time next year - all new top hat and further engine upgrades.

You're right, Falcon/Terry and Taurus/MKS have the same zig zag upgrade pattern.

A very economical move - far better than GM divisions and their badge engineered clones.

 

Our numbers will come back with cheap gas and fresh Territory( it gets Falcon engine upgrades)

Edited January 12, 2009 by jpd80

[armadamaster]

You know what has carried Chrysler for the past few years? Rams. They are up shit's creek otherwise, LX cars included.

 

Yes they have as well.

 

And GM is in trouble for reasons that go far beyond its lack of RWD vehicles. Man, that G8 is sure saving them now, huh?

 

You talking about the RWD import no one asked for that looks like a 5 year old Grand Prix from the start with a naming scheme from a bingo tournament? Who in their right mind thought that was gonna "right the ship"?

 

And if those Panther customers are so dedicated, why has the vehicle suffered a year-over-year loss of customers for over a decade now?

 

Because even the most dedicated customers want a bone tossed their way every now and then. I agree who wants to buy the same Grand Marquis verbatum for the third or fourth time when the one they've got is doing the job just fine?

 

 

 

Because it is following the example set the the continually refreshed Fivehundred/Taurus?

How many billions since 2004 inception?

 

Bingo.

 

The Taurus spreads those costs across how many platform mates? I'm sure all of them will benefit on at least some level from the improvements done here.

 

We counting the D3 nameplates that have FAILed or the ones still in use?

Edited January 13, 2009 by Armada Master

[NickF1011]

Because even the most dedicated customers want a bone tossed their way every now and then. I agree who wants to buy the same Grand Marquis verbatum for the third or fourth time when the one they've got is doing the job just fine?

 

Ford threw them the Marauder several years back. What did those "dedicated" Panther followers do? They flat out ignored it. Had the Marauder been a success, I bet Ford would have been much more willing to spend more money on them moving forward.

 

Let's face it. The few people who buy Panthers retail anymore do it because they can buy a fullsize car at huge discounts and for little other reason. That's not a sustainable business model.

Edited January 13, 2009 by NickF1011

[Footballfan]

I am going with the side that Linclon cannot be a true luxury brand without RWD offerings. Remembmer Cadillac before the CTS? A stable of FWD cars although good, never really aspired to the folks who were considering a BMW or Benz. There is just a different handling dynamic and feel with RWD that luxury buyers prefer. I know that I am going to get slammed here, but Lincoln really missed the boat by not retaining or developing the LS into more vehichles. Lincoln will be a good competitor for Acura and a tick up from Buick- not necessarily a bad thing- but it will always be in the shadow of the volume luxury brands of BMW, Cadillac, and Benz until there is a RWD offering.

[Blueblood]

Ford threw them the Marauder several years back. What did those "dedicated" Panther followers do? They flat out ignored it. Had the Marauder been a success, I bet Ford would have been much more willing to spend more money on them moving forward.

 

Let's face it. The few people who buy Panthers retail anymore do it because they can buy a fullsize car at huge discounts and for little other reason. That's not a sustainable business model.

 

The Marauder was not a update in any way to the ancient Panthers, the car needed a ground up 100% re-do, not a slight power bump.

 

Maybe if Ford had ever updated the cars over the years their sales wouldn't be in the dumps.

 

You blame people for not buying them, but you let Ford off the hook, when it is Ford who by not ever updating the cars caused people to stop buying them.

 

What would Camry sales be if the 09 was identical to the 91? What about the F-150? What if it was the 91 model on sale today, with zero updates? Do you think it would still be the #1 selling truck?

 

Leaving a car to rot on the vine is not a "sustainable business model", you can't blame customers for not wanting to keep buying the same car every 5 years.

 

Look at the Ranger, same thing, sales keep dwindling because Ford refuses to give it the updates it needs, why should anyone buy it? Ford isn't giving people a reason to.

 

If Ford gave us a fully modernized CV with reduced overhangs, Taurus-like interior, completely new sheetmetal, 5 star safety, powertrain choices that weren't 20 years old, and quality materials I'd sure want one, and I bet many many others would as well. How on Earth do you expect people to line up to buy them when Ford abandoned them?

[Blueblood]

The Taurus spreads those costs across how many platform mates?

Do you mean: Taurus -MKS or do you mean SE, SEL and Limited?

 

If you mean Taurus - MKS I think you'll find the Top hats are unique and not much interchanges.

You'd be lucky if 40-50% of the parts interchange and they're mostly mechanical and electrical.

Your Taurus SE, SEL and Limited are similar to our XT Base, G Luxury Series and XR Sports Series.

 

Edit,

I do like what Ford has done with this Taurus and MKS, I just wish they would market them internationally.

 

How do you feel about the Falcon becoming a nose heavy, ugly, understeering Camry clone?

[Blueblood]

I am going with the side that Linclon cannot be a true luxury brand without RWD offerings. Remembmer Cadillac before the CTS? A stable of FWD cars although good, never really aspired to the folks who were considering a BMW or Benz. There is just a different handling dynamic and feel with RWD that luxury buyers prefer. I know that I am going to get slammed here, but Lincoln really missed the boat by not retaining or developing the LS into more vehichles. Lincoln will be a good competitor for Acura and a tick up from Buick- not necessarily a bad thing- but it will always be in the shadow of the volume luxury brands of BMW, Cadillac, and Benz until there is a RWD offering.

 

Agreed, I find it really sad when even Hyundai can build a better car than Lincoln..

[jpd80]

How do you feel about the Falcon becoming a nose heavy, ugly, understeering Camry clone?

the D3 Taurus is comparable to our discontinued Fairlane and LTD and if Ford was to import

the Taurus, it think they would sell well as the full size flagship and not compete with Falcon.

The Taurus would certainly cause Holden's LWB Statesman and Caprice some grief though!!!

Edited January 13, 2009 by jpd80

[silvrsvt]

I am going with the side that Linclon cannot be a true luxury brand without RWD offerings. Remembmer Cadillac before the CTS?

 

Whats your point? What has changed at Cadillac? They might have improved their "image" with some, but for all that money they've dumped into it, have the sales significantly improved?

 

Agreed, I find it really sad when even Hyundai can build a better car than Lincoln..

 

But Hyundai has no cashe vs Lincoln. The only thing the Geneis has going for it is its price, and how can you be a successful "cheap" luxury company? Luxury is all about charging a preium over your standard products so you make more money off them

[NickF1011]

The Marauder was not a update in any way to the ancient Panthers, the car needed a ground up 100% re-do, not a slight power bump.

 

Maybe if Ford had ever updated the cars over the years their sales wouldn't be in the dumps.

 

You blame people for not buying them, but you let Ford off the hook, when it is Ford who by not ever updating the cars caused people to stop buying them.

 

What would Camry sales be if the 09 was identical to the 91? What about the F-150? What if it was the 91 model on sale today, with zero updates? Do you think it would still be the #1 selling truck?

 

Leaving a car to rot on the vine is not a "sustainable business model", you can't blame customers for not wanting to keep buying the same car every 5 years.

 

Look at the Ranger, same thing, sales keep dwindling because Ford refuses to give it the updates it needs, why should anyone buy it? Ford isn't giving people a reason to.

 

If Ford gave us a fully modernized CV with reduced overhangs, Taurus-like interior, completely new sheetmetal, 5 star safety, powertrain choices that weren't 20 years old, and quality materials I'd sure want one, and I bet many many others would as well. How on Earth do you expect people to line up to buy them when Ford abandoned them?

 

I don't give Ford a "free pass". In every argument about the freaking Panther I've said it's Ford's fault for not updating them. But what's done is done. The past is the past. It's simply too late to save them now. And looking at how the other more modern fullsize RWD sedans are doing on the market now, what exactly is Ford's incentive to launch such a vehicle again? They aren't going to suddenly get back all the Panther owners from 15 years ago if they launched a new RWD sedan now. Those customers, by and large, have moved on (many in the spiritual sense).

 

As for the Ranger though, nobody is really buying ANY small pickups anymore. Even once great sellers like Dakota and Tacoma aren't exactly burning up the sales charts, despite being kept up-to-date. I do still hope Ford comes out with a new Ranger though. As the leader in trucks, I think they stand to gain the most from this segment if they can come up with a package that people actually want.

 

Agreed, I find it really sad when even Hyundai can build a better car than Lincoln..

 

Better because it's RWD? I think most would take an MKS over a Genesis after having some seat time in both.

Edited January 13, 2009 by NickF1011

[Footballfan]

Whats your point? What has changed at Cadillac? They might have improved their "image" with some, but for all that money they've dumped into it, have the sales significantly improved?

 

 

 

But Hyundai has no cashe vs Lincoln. The only thing the Geneis has going for it is its price, and how can you be a successful "cheap" luxury company? Luxury is all about charging a preium over your standard products so you make more money off them

 

What's changed at Cadillac? Cadillac is a serious competitor to BMW and Benz. Cadillac would be dead without the CTS; sales have remained stable for Cadillac- not collapsed as in the case of Lincoln. I am sure there are more conquest sales for Cadillac from competing luxury brands than there are for Lincoln.

[jpd80]

Except that Cadillac sales dropped 24.9% last year to 161,159 as opposed to 214,726 in 2007

but you are right about CTS, it increased by 3.1% to 58,774 over the 2007 figure of 57,029.

 

Ford needs to ensure all of it volume products perform at optimum before it can even

consider niche products. A rear wheel drive would be nice but rather than a Global RWD,

niche products like the RWD Falcons could be handled by Ford Australia.

That way the US can concentrate on the job at hand, selling volume products.

Edited January 13, 2009 by jpd80

[NickF1011]

What's changed at Cadillac? Cadillac is a serious competitor to BMW and Benz. Cadillac would be dead without the CTS; sales have remained stable for Cadillac- not collapsed as in the case of Lincoln. I am sure there are more conquest sales for Cadillac from competing luxury brands than there are for Lincoln.

 

Want to rephrase that?????

 

 

 

2008 Results:

 

Lincoln -18.4%

 

http://media.ford.com/images/10031/dec08sales.pdf

 

Cadillac -24.9%

 

http://media.corporate-ir.net/media_files/...December_08.pdf

 

 

 

From Ford's December's sales release: "In the fourth quarter, however, Lincoln increased its share in the luxury market as its 16-percent sales decline was less than half of the average decline of all other luxury brands."

 

Aside from the CTS, there really is no Cadillac.

[Hemiman]

I'm feeling lazy or tired of this argument.

 

So, I'll defer to Blueblood. He seem to sum up my feelings.

[armadamaster]

As for the Ranger though, nobody is really buying ANY small pickups anymore. Even once great sellers like Dakota and Tacoma aren't exactly burning up the sales charts, despite being kept up-to-date. I do still hope Ford comes out with a new Ranger though. As the leader in trucks, I think they stand to gain the most from this segment if they can come up with a package that people actually want.

 

Well said.

 

The Marauder was not a update in any way to the ancient Panthers, the car needed a ground up 100% re-do, not a slight power bump.

 

Maybe if Ford had ever updated the cars over the years their sales wouldn't be in the dumps.

 

You blame people for not buying them, but you let Ford off the hook, when it is Ford who by not ever updating the cars caused people to stop buying them.

 

What would Camry sales be if the 09 was identical to the 91? What about the F-150? What if it was the 91 model on sale today, with zero updates? Do you think it would still be the #1 selling truck?

 

Leaving a car to rot on the vine is not a "sustainable business model", you can't blame customers for not wanting to keep buying the same car every 5 years.

 

Look at the Ranger, same thing, sales keep dwindling because Ford refuses to give it the updates it needs, why should anyone buy it? Ford isn't giving people a reason to.

 

If Ford gave us a fully modernized CV with reduced overhangs, Taurus-like interior, completely new sheetmetal, 5 star safety, powertrain choices that weren't 20 years old, and quality materials I'd sure want one, and I bet many many others would as well. How on Earth do you expect people to line up to buy them when Ford abandoned them?

 

Well said.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

RWD Car makers BMW, Ferrari, Lamborghini Maserati, Mercedes & Porsche look like they will all post profits and don't look like they will need bailouts despite falling sales, maybe they are doing the wrong thing maybe they should be building FWD cars? Good job Ford NA has a RWD F-Series to prop it up a bit.

 

RWD What no profits, it's good job Ford are going to build FWD only it should be very interesting watching Ford try to put 700 BHP through a FWD Mustang?

 

Ferarri & Maserati RWD

http://www.gtspirit.com/2008/04/28/1868/

 

Porsche RWD

http://www.motorauthority.com/vw-share-tra...rd-profits.html

 

Lamborghini RWD

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/23/lamborg...profit-in-2008/

 

BMW RWD

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaki.../breaking45.htm

[silvrsvt]

RWD Car makers BMW, Ferrari, Lamborghini Maserati, Mercedes & Porsche look like they will all post profits and don't look like they will need bailouts despite falling sales, maybe they are doing the wrong thing maybe they should be building FWD cars? Good job Ford NA has a RWD F-Series to prop it up a bit.

 

You have to be fucking kidding me...add up all of those car companies and they don't even come close to producing what Ford sells F-Series in a year.

 

 

RWD What no profits, it's good job Ford are going to build FWD only it should be very interesting watching Ford try to put 700 BHP through a FWD Mustang?

 

And since when did Ford say the Mustang is going FWD?

[Ford Jellymoulds]

You have to be fucking kidding me...add up all of those car companies and they don't even come close to producing what Ford sells F-Series in a year.

 

 

 

 

And since when did Ford say the Mustang is going FWD?

 

 

I am not talking numbers l am talking BIG profits not BIG losses have a look at the links it's a clue.

 

Mustang will have no option in the future other than FWD or die, gotta say l can see it coming l used to think the same thing as you back in the early 80's when everything Ford made in Europe was RWD apart from the Fiesta. Sierra and Capri in Europe were the last two to get left to rot on the vine like the Falcon & Mustang are at the moment. Ford just wanted them out the way and used the ole commanche trick sell the Capri in only on country in Europe for its last two years of production (It still outsold the Mini which was sold worldwide at the time) a bit like the Mustang only getting sold in Hawaii only to get the sales numbers down, FOE didnot want the Capri RWD as a stand alone platform.

 

Gotta say l don't think Ford will be brutal and ever take the axe to Mustang and end production, but l think the writing is on the wall it will end up a FWD shitbox its getting a to stand alone platform bean counters won't like that. Gotta say you are looking more like FOE with every day that passes by - Fiesta, Focus & Transit with more to follow.