Ford Delays Launch of Global Transit

[battyr]

The Transit has a reputationsion of being the a leader in vans in Europe. Both in quality and flexibillity.

 

I just saw a video of the crash test with both a Sprinter and a Transit. The Sprinter did well and the Transit failed baddly.

 

Ford has to be doing a major redesign to fix this. A major redesign to both fix the crash test results and make it a global van. This must be taking longer with Fords budget cuts.

[zipnzap]

The Transit has a reputationsion of being the a leader in vans in Europe. Both in quality and flexibillity.

 

I just saw a video of the crash test with both a Sprinter and a Transit. The Sprinter did well and the Transit failed baddly.

 

Ford has to be doing a major redesign to fix this. A major redesign to both fix the crash test results and make it a global van. This must be taking longer with Fords budget cuts.

 

Is there going to be higher-end versions to replace the heavy-duty E-series models?

Edited February 8, 2009 by zipnzap

[theoldwizard]

Is there going to be higher-end versions (of the Transit) to replace the heavy-duty E-series models?

Not likely.

 

I expect the E350 and E450 to soldier on, admittedly with fresh powertrains for a long, long time.

[twintornados]

Not likely.

 

I expect the E350 and E450 to soldier on, admittedly with fresh powertrains for a long, long time.

What do you know....you think that the E150 models don't have twin I beam suspension ....when Ford replaces Econoline....the whole lineup will get changed out. The only thing that may possibly remain is the name itself.

[RichardJensen]

The Transit is a pretty solid replacement for the E150. In fact, the Transit makes the E150 look pretty bad.

 

E250 I'm not so sure about.

 

The E350 & E450, however, are pretty tough monkeys, and (like theoldwizard), I expect they'll soldier on for quite a while.

 

---

 

What's interesting, to me, is the possibility that the Transit may steal passenger hauling volume from the GM vans.

 

The GM vans are quite a bit more passenger friendly (dual sliding doors, more headroom) than the E150. However, the Transit bids fair to exceed the GM vans in passenger accommodations.

 

---

 

Of course something will have to be done about driver accommodations, as (if the Transit is anything like the Sprinter), the driver's position is a cross between standing up, driving a bus, and manning a boat tiller.

[RichardJensen]

BTW: On the E350 & E450: They may not need the supplemental volume of the E150/E250 to carry on.

 

In fact, the E350 & E450 don't share frames with the lighter duty E-Series, so that's one major item that doesn't have to be carried over.

 

The E350 & E450 are only available in cab/chassis, chassis (E450) and cutaway, whereas the E150 & E250 are only available as window and panel vans, so the MOST the E350 & E450 share are hood stampings, front fenders, and front doors, the necessary glass and the front subframes. Everything past that is not shared.

 

So, IMO, you can keep the E450 & E350 going independent of the E150 & E250 with minimal effort.

 

----------------

 

However, I do wonder if the delay in the Transit is due to the US proving grounds having, among other things, the Silver Creek bed.... The Transit's ratings for payload and towing in the EU may not match what they would be rated at stateside.

Edited February 9, 2009 by RichardJensen

[rmc523]

The Transit is a pretty solid replacement for the E150. In fact, the Transit makes the E150 look pretty bad.

 

E250 I'm not so sure about.

 

The E350 & E450, however, are pretty tough monkeys, and (like theoldwizard), I expect they'll soldier on for quite a while.

 

---

 

What's interesting, to me, is the possibility that the Transit may steal passenger hauling volume from the GM vans.

 

The GM vans are quite a bit more passenger friendly (dual sliding doors, more headroom) than the E150. However, the Transit bids fair to exceed the GM vans in passenger accommodations.

 

---

 

Of course something will have to be done about driver accommodations, as (if the Transit is anything like the Sprinter), the driver's position is a cross between standing up, driving a bus, and manning a boat tiller.

 

Perhaps we would see something along the lines of a Transit replacing the E150, but E250+ will remain their own entities? I'm thinking we won't see that, but just throwing it out there to build upon what you said.

[rmc523]

BTW: On the E350 & E450: They may not need the supplemental volume of the E150/E250 to carry on.

 

In fact, the E350 & E450 don't share frames with the lighter duty E-Series, so that's one major item that doesn't have to be carried over.

 

The E350 & E450 are only available in cab/chassis, chassis (E450) and cutaway, whereas the E150 & E250 are only available as window and panel vans, so the MOST the E350 & E450 share are hood stampings, front fenders, and front doors. Everything past that is not shared.

 

So, IMO, you can keep the E450 & E350 going independent of the E150 & E250 with minimal effort.

 

----------------

 

However, I do wonder if the delay in the Transit is due to the US proving grounds having, among other things, the Silver Creek bed.... The Transit's ratings for payload and towing in the EU may not match what they would be rated at stateside.

 

Well if that's true, then perhaps an updated, beefed up Transit will replace the E1/250s while the E3/450s will continue on. Also, if all the E3/450s share with the E1/250s is essentially the front cabin area, in theory, the new front end of the Transconoline could just be tacked onto the E3/450 chassis, cutaway, etc.

[RichardJensen]

There are substantial differences between the overall dimensions of the Transits & E-Series.

 

You couldn't graft a Transit front end onto an E-Series.

 

-----

 

The thing about the E350 & E450 is they're only available as cab/chassis, chassis (450) and cutaways.

 

Now stop and think about that. NONE of those models are sold direct to end consumer.

 

They're all sold to 'body-builders' that add delivery bodies, bus bodies, RV bodies, etc. onto the chassis.

 

That complicates any effort on Ford's part to 'streamline' the global van architecture.

 

Another factor that complicates things is dramatically different performance expectations.

 

Consider, the Transit equivalent of the E450 not only has a significantly lower GVWR & GCWR, it also has roughly 100lb-ft less torque.

 

You cannot drop in the 5-cylinder Transit diesel as a 1:1 replacement for the 6.0L PSD--even assuming all other things were equal, as neither the direct consumer nor the final consumer of E450 products would accept such a drastic decrease in performance (a decrease in performance, I might add, which would not likely yield higher fuel economy, unless drivers adjusted their driving habits accordingly--and assuming that surrounding traffic had patience for a box van that has worse acceleration than a tractor trailer).

[rmc523]

There are substantial differences between the overall dimensions of the Transits & E-Series.

 

You couldn't graft a Transit front end onto an E-Series.

 

-----

 

The thing about the E350 & E450 is they're only available as cab/chassis, chassis (450) and cutaways.

 

Now stop and think about that. NONE of those models are sold direct to end consumer.

 

They're all sold to 'body-builders' that add delivery bodies, bus bodies, RV bodies, etc. onto the chassis.

 

That complicates any effort on Ford's part to 'streamline' the global van architecture.

 

Another factor that complicates things is dramatically different performance expectations.

 

Consider, the Transit equivalent of the E450 not only has a significantly lower GVWR & GCWR, it also has roughly 100lb-ft less torque.

 

You cannot drop in the 5-cylinder Transit diesel as a 1:1 replacement for the 6.0L PSD--even assuming all other things were equal, as neither the direct consumer nor the final consumer of E450 products would accept such a drastic decrease in performance (a decrease in performance, I might add, which would not likely yield higher fuel economy, unless drivers adjusted their driving habits accordingly--and assuming that surrounding traffic had patience for a box van that has worse acceleration than a tractor trailer).

 

I've kinda wondered from the beginning how (or if) the Transit and Econoline could truly be globalized.

[twintornados]

The E350 & E450 are only available in cab/chassis, chassis (E450) and cutaway, whereas the E150 & E250 are only available as window and panel vans, so the MOST the E350 & E450 share are hood stampings, front fenders, and front doors, the necessary glass and the front subframes. Everything past that is not shared.

 

Richard, if you go to the Ford website, you will find that the the E350 is indeed available as a "regular" cargo van, E450 models are available as chassis/cab only.

 

http://www.commtruck.ford.com/

[twintornados]

The full size van market is a valuable market to Ford, I am sure that when they redesign Econoline and Transit into a "One Ford" chassis sharing program Ford will consult with their partners to ensure that there is a smooth transition to the new version. As for naming...I would be betting that in the North American market, the name Econoline will continue to be used on any "One Ford" replacement to the segment.

Edited February 9, 2009 by twintornados

[RichardJensen]

Hmm. Didn't know that about the E350. Wouldn't imagine they sell many of them.....

[twintornados]

Econoline is an enigmatic vehicle in Fords lineup.....a true work horse, and they sell a ton of 'em...but you don't see a lot of them at "XYZ Ford Store"....a kinda "behind the scene" machine that is a profit maker for Ford. They haven't been "re-engineered" in decades, makes the Panther look young in comparison...is the last hold out for Twin I Beam (thats right Wiz...I said Twin I Beam!) So, any changes will significantly alter the landscape of modern work-a-day America....Ford must be very careful when replacing this stalwart.....she will not go quietly into the night for sure!

[Biker16]

BTW: On the E350 & E450: They may not need the supplemental volume of the E150/E250 to carry on.

 

In fact, the E350 & E450 don't share frames with the lighter duty E-Series, so that's one major item that doesn't have to be carried over.

 

The E350 & E450 are only available in cab/chassis, chassis (E450) and cutaway, whereas the E150 & E250 are only available as window and panel vans, so the MOST the E350 & E450 share are hood stampings, front fenders, and front doors, the necessary glass and the front subframes. Everything past that is not shared.

 

So, IMO, you can keep the E450 & E350 going independent of the E150 & E250 with minimal effort.

 

----------------

 

However, I do wonder if the delay in the Transit is due to the US proving grounds having, among other things, the Silver Creek bed.... The Transit's ratings for payload and towing in the EU may not match what they would be rated at stateside.

 

 

I think that you could place the transit body over the Frame of the E350 or E450.

[battyr]

I think that you could place the transit body over the Frame of the E350 or E450.

 

No, but you could design a New E350 or E450 frame that you could place the transit body over.

[theoldwizard]

The E350 & E450 are only available in cab/chassis, chassis (E450) and cutaway,

Maybe you should check the website first !

[theoldwizard]

Richard, if you go to the Ford website, you will find that the the E350 is indeed available as a "regular" cargo van, ...

And if you check the other website you see it is available as a Wagon also.

[theoldwizard]

The Transit is a pretty solid replacement for the E150. In fact, the Transit makes the E150 look pretty bad.

While the SWB Transit with a 2.4L turbo Diesel and automatic is rated to tow 7000 lbs (with a 4.63 rear axle ratio), it might be interesting to see how long it take it to get to the top of Eisenhower pass (or if it can even maintain the legal minimum speed limit) as compared to an E150 towing the same weight with a 5.4L and 3.73 rear axle.

[RichardJensen]

I think that you could place the transit body over the Frame of the E350 or E450.

Objections:

 

1) cutaway products would have to be reengineered for a different cab. Less of a problem for cube vans, etc., but still a problem as some cab/chassis products have coachwork over the roof of the cab.

 

2) vanishing efficiencies: Cost to keep E450 & E350 sheetmetal as is: replacement of dies when they wear out--said dies lasting as much longer as the E150 & E250 represent volume proportionally.

 

I mean, consider it this way: You get x number of stamps per die. That translates to x number of doors, hoods, etc. That translates into the volume paying for the new tooling as a basic math exercise. It's either, say 2 years at present volume or 4 years with E350/E450 only volume. Either way the volume pays for the replacement parts.

 

3) The Transit body would have to be reengineered for the different frame spacing of the E450 & E350. The body has to be braced where it bolts to the frame, and you'd either have to engineer the floorpan for BOTH E-series and conventional Transits or you'd have to widen the frame rails on the Transit.

 

And if you do that, all you've done is move North America's problem (body-builders' reliance on continuity of hardpoints and dimensions) over to Europe, where Europe's body builders would have to reengineer their products for the new frame dimensions.

Edited February 9, 2009 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

No, but you could design a New E350 or E450 frame that you could place the transit body over.

That sentence could also be written thus:

 

You could require all your aftermarket body builders to reengineer all their products because you want to make all your vans look the same.

[RichardJensen]

And if you check the other website you see it is available as a Wagon also.

I did, but it was a while ago and I was relying on memory.

[Biker16]

Objections:

 

1) cutaway products would have to be reengineered for a different cab. Less of a problem for cube vans, etc., but still a problem as some cab/chassis products have coachwork over the roof of the cab.

 

2) vanishing efficiencies: Cost to keep E450 & E350 sheetmetal as is: replacement of dies when they wear out--said dies lasting as much longer as the E150 & E250 represent volume proportionally.

 

I mean, consider it this way: You get x number of stamps per die. That translates to x number of doors, hoods, etc. That translates into the volume paying for the new tooling as a basic math exercise. It's either, say 2 years at present volume or 4 years with E350/E450 only volume. Either way the volume pays for the replacement parts.

 

3) The Transit body would have to be reengineered for the different frame spacing of the E450 & E350. The body has to be braced where it bolts to the frame, and you'd either have to engineer the floorpan for BOTH E-series and conventional Transits or you'd have to widen the frame rails on the Transit.

 

And if you do that, all you've done is move North America's problem (body-builders' reliance on continuity of hardpoints and dimensions) over to Europe, where Europe's body builders would have to reengineer their products for the new frame dimensions.

 

 

Richard your concerns are dually noted.

 

1) they will have to adapt. they have two options A) go to GM Design a all-new coachwork B) stay with ford and design new Coachwork. Hopefully we can sell them on the superiority of our architecture over our competition. but how is this different than any other day?

 

2) right the economy of scale is not in the dies but really in the parts being purchased from suppliers, because while Dies are fixed the cost of buying fewer components from suppliers goes up (per part) as volume goes down. I really don't care about what body is used. It is besides the point.

 

3) you can buy a frame with a transit body on it right now. the cost of redesigning the frame is much less expensive than redesining the body, thus why the E-series's bdy has remained the same for > 15years.

 

Cheers.

[Edstock]

Sic Transit Gloria?

[RichardJensen]

Richard your concerns are dually noted.

 

1) they will have to adapt. they have two options A) go to GM Design a all-new coachwork B) stay with ford and design new Coachwork. Hopefully we can sell them on the superiority of our architecture over our competition. but how is this different than any other day?

 

2) right the economy of scale is not in the dies but really in the parts being purchased from suppliers, because while Dies are fixed the cost of buying fewer components from suppliers goes up (per part) as volume goes down. I really don't care about what body is used. It is besides the point.

 

3) you can buy a frame with a transit body on it right now. the cost of redesigning the frame is much less expensive than redesining the body, thus why the E-series's bdy has remained the same for > 15years.

 

Cheers.

1, 2) So the idea is to force your customers to spend tens of thousands of dollars revamping =their= designs, in order for you to save a few bucks in stamping parts? From RVs to box vans to shuttle buses, I would bet the cost to Ford's suppliers--in the changes to THEIR dies, jigs, etc., would FAR exceed the cost to Ford to keep two sets of dies.

 

I don't like that.

 

3) The 'cost' of redesigning the frame is, again, forcing your customers to spend tens of thousands of dollars revamping =their= designs.

 

While the E-Series frame has been upgraded periodically, its hardpoints and dimensions have not.

Edited February 10, 2009 by RichardJensen