Full Electric Fiesta, Focus, Fusion?

[joihan777]

Pardon me if this has been discussed before:

 

The good folks at MIT came up with a better way to cook Lithium-Ion batteries.

 

The result is a battery that can recharge in seconds and, assumingly, a complete battery pack in a few minutes.

 

This can lead to Ford offering a slew of smaller, commuter/economy oriented Full Electric vehicles. Said vehicles could now recharge at work or at a gas electric fill station. Add to this increasing use of Nuclear/Solar & other alternative forms of electricity production and we may well kiss OPEC goodbye. (Perhaps more than a kiss!)

 

The current Hybrids can have their gasoline engines scaled down to mere emergency power or deleted altogether.

 

The future's so bright I gotta wear shades :shades:

[twintornados]

Very interesting article....I hope MIT can convince an American company to invest in this technology, it looks to be a game changer.

[battyr]

This is being developed by a University not a business. They tend to report huge capabilities in theory. They tend to prove the theories. Often the theory works, but there are a hundred other road blocks that keep it from working as well in the real world. One road block is cost.

 

Lithium technology is so new and different, that there is likely hundreds of different projects underway that improve the performance and cost of lithium ion batteries. Some of them promise huge improvements. I hope that atleast 2% to 5% of them work. Then we will get a huge improvement in these batteries and the the PHEV will become a reality for the common person.

 

In the case of the MIT battery. The improvement is in the rate of charging and I assume rate of releasing power. It could have very little difference in total storage capacity. This could be good for HEV. They need a lot of power for very short periods of time. They also need to recharge very quickly from regenerative braking. If the battery releases power 10 time faster, then you only have to pay for a batter that is 10 th of the size. Bang! HEV is now affordable. With the smaller battery, you would not be able to travel very far on a charge. You would need a different technology for a Plugin HEV or an Battery EV.

[theoldwizard]

One glitch, Ceder said, would be handling the extra surge of power. "All of the wiring has to get beefed up," he said.

 

440V 100A (which no average home has) and a power cable that is bigger than the average mans bicep !

[battyr]

440V 100A (which no average home has) and a power cable that is bigger than the average mans bicep !

 

Electronics will control the rate fo charge. At home you could charge it slowly over night. The fast charge would be done at service station. A three phase commercial service should be able to charge many cars at this rate. Keep the voltage up and the cable would be no more larger than that used in standard house wiring. Voltage is not a danger because they will not be making a physical connection from the charger to the car. The connection will be made through induction.

[jpd80]

While it's true the MIT is developing the technology, the the modifications needed are a change in

base material composition and heat treatment. For manufacturing facilities, these are relatively

easy steps to modify but still cost money and time to implement.

 

Industry has known about the techniques for a while now, so why the publicity now?

I think there's a bit of hidden politics going on between Auto manufacturers and battery producers.

Edited March 12, 2009 by jpd80

[twintornados]

I think there's a bit of hidden politics going on between Auto manufacturers and battery producers.

 

You forgot to include Oil inc. Why, they'll put this technology on a shelf next to the 100MPG carburetor.

Edited March 12, 2009 by twintornados

[Catalepsy]

It's not just for automakers. I'm sure the laptop and portable devices companies are interested as well. There is simply too many other factors to call it a conspiracy.

 

You can't just slap an Li-Ion battery pack into a car. There's a lot of safety issues involved. Also it is almost certainly that every company that offers Li-Ion electric cars will have to offer recycling as well. Those batteries are extremely toxic especially if thousands of them end up in landfills.

 

The biggest problem with Li-Ion right is cost and safety. Cost will come down over time, but battery fires are still a fairy frequent occurrance. Unlike other portable devices, a couple of fires will trigger a recall. Imagine having to replace that many battery packs. It would bankrupt any company.

 

We can overcome the technical issues but I think we're still a good 50 yrs away from a functional and practical full electric vehicle.

 

 

While it's true the MIT is developing the technology, the the modifications needed are a change in

base material composition and heat treatment. For manufacturing facilities, these are relatively

easy steps to modify but still cost money and time to implement.

 

Industry has known about the techniques for a while now, so why the publicity now?

I think there's a bit of hidden politics going on between Auto manufacturers and battery producers.

[battyr]

 

You forgot to include Oil inc. Why, they'll put this technology on a shelf next to the 100MPG carburetor.

 

The patents on the 100MPG carburator would have expired long ago. Anyone can go to the patent office, see how it works and make their own.

[jpd80]

It's not just for automakers. I'm sure the laptop and portable devices companies are interested as well. There is simply too many other factors to call it a conspiracy.

 

You can't just slap an Li-Ion battery pack into a car. There's a lot of safety issues involved. Also it is almost certainly that every company that offers Li-Ion electric cars will have to offer recycling as well. Those batteries are extremely toxic especially if thousands of them end up in landfills.

I think the idea is to use less batteries in hybrids and PEVs not more . Battery heat comes from internal resistance, something the MIT battery seems to overcome in releasing charge at a much faster rate.

[Catalepsy]

To extend the range of these vehicles to a practical level, they will need more batteries. Don't forget batteries are not just about charge & discharge. There's also life cycles involved and the need to replace the battery packs once they begin to deteriorate. Unlike other portable devices, once it drops below the 50% level, most likely they would have to be replaced. Li-ion batteries deteriorate pretty darn fast.

 

Battery heat is not the problem. We can already overcome that issue in other portable devices. The issue with Li-ion batteries is fire. Any type of defect or foreign element that gets in will cause fires. These fires happen relatively frequently in current applications. It isn't like a defective engine part where the car will simply stop working. Once these battery catch on fire, there's very little you can do to put it out.

 

 

 

I think the idea is to use less batteries in hybrids and PEVs not more . Battery heat comes from internal resistance, something the MIT battery seems to overcome in releasing charge at a much faster rate.

[Edstock]

Here's the MIT web site

 

http://www.technologyreview.com/index.aspx

 

There's all sorts of stuff about to make an appearance in our technology.

[battyr]

It's not just for automakers. I'm sure the laptop and portable devices companies are interested as well. There is simply too many other factors to call it a conspiracy.

 

You can't just slap an Li-Ion battery pack into a car. There's a lot of safety issues involved. Also it is almost certainly that every company that offers Li-Ion electric cars will have to offer recycling as well. Those batteries are extremely toxic especially if thousands of them end up in landfills.

 

The biggest problem with Li-Ion right is cost and safety. Cost will come down over time, but battery fires are still a fairy frequent occurrance. Unlike other portable devices, a couple of fires will trigger a recall. Imagine having to replace that many battery packs. It would bankrupt any company.

 

We can overcome the technical issues but I think we're still a good 50 yrs away from a functional and practical full electric vehicle.

 

The safety issues of Li-Ion batteries comes from electrical resistance, causing heat, fire and explosions. This problem is solved in the MIT battery and many other types of Li-ion batteries.

 

What are the toxics found in Li-Ion?

 

These batteries are classified by the federal government as non-hazardous waste.

 

http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/batteries.php#Hazards

 

Li-Ion, Alkaline (manganese), Carbon Zinc, Nickel Metal Hydride (Rechargeable) also considered Non-hazardous with California as the exception. California only considers Li-Ion as non-hazardous. This link also tells where you can have Li-Ion batteries recycled. To prevent fire hazard in old Li-Ion battery, they can be carefully opened and soaked in salt water. Then they are completely harmless.

 

The recall issue is why Ford is currently using Nickel Metal Hydride batteries. Over the last 5 years, a huge improvement has been made with Li-Ion batteries. They are now as safe as Nickel Metal Hydride and cheaper. Ford decided to use the older battery design rather than wait for years of testing needed to avoid recalls. Once the testing is done they will be using Li-Ion.

 

From what I see, about 20 different companies think they have a Li-ion battery with 10 times the performance of the current ones. If only one of these companies can bring their batteries to market at a reasonable cost, then you have a practical electric car.

[battyr]

Here's the MIT web site

 

http://www.technologyreview.com/index.aspx

 

There's all sorts of stuff about to make an appearance in our technology.

 

Good web site.

[Catalepsy]

When you're talking the quanity involved in this type of application, there's a risk of forming fluoro organic compounds. You're talking millions of battery packs that most of which will not be recycled. Look at the current batteries that we already have the ability to recycle but mostly end up in landfills and 3rd world countries.

 

Performance & cost is not the main issues here. Li-ion have a very limited life cycle. That's the major thing they have to overcome, and I have no doubt eventually a battery will solve those problems. The safety issue is a biggie as well. If they solved those problems, they certainly have to filtered down to the current devices...because they are still catching fire and exploding.

 

 

 

The safety issues of Li-Ion batteries comes from electrical resistance, causing heat, fire and explosions. This problem is solved in the MIT battery and many other types of Li-ion batteries.

 

What are the toxics found in Li-Ion?

 

 

 

http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/batteries.php#Hazards

 

Li-Ion, Alkaline (manganese), Carbon Zinc, Nickel Metal Hydride (Rechargeable) also considered Non-hazardous with California as the exception. California only considers Li-Ion as non-hazardous. This link also tells where you can have Li-Ion batteries recycled. To prevent fire hazard in old Li-Ion battery, they can be carefully opened and soaked in salt water. Then they are completely harmless.

 

The recall issue is why Ford is currently using Nickel Metal Hydride batteries. Over the last 5 years, a huge improvement has been made with Li-Ion batteries. They are now as safe as Nickel Metal Hydride and cheaper. Ford decided to use the older battery design rather than wait for years of testing needed to avoid recalls. Once the testing is done they will be using Li-Ion.

 

From what I see, about 20 different companies think they have a Li-ion battery with 10 times the performance of the current ones. If only one of these companies can bring their batteries to market at a reasonable cost, then you have a practical electric car.

[battyr]

While it's true the MIT is developing the technology, the the modifications needed are a change in

base material composition and heat treatment. For manufacturing facilities, these are relatively

easy steps to modify but still cost money and time to implement.

 

Industry has known about the techniques for a while now, so why the publicity now?

I think there's a bit of hidden politics going on between Auto manufacturers and battery producers.

 

Yeah. I am just saying the motive behind the research is to publish a paper on how well the research was done. And then get a grant to do more research.

[Edstock]

Actually, if you follow the MIT site for some time, you may see that the attitude of research for more research is changing. It takes time, for sure, but a lot of what you see on that site is being developed with commercial usage in mind. Slowly, the ivory tower becomes more practical.

[battyr]

To extend the range of these vehicles to a practical level, they will need more batteries. Don't forget batteries are not just about charge & discharge. There's also life cycles involved and the need to replace the battery packs once they begin to deteriorate. Unlike other portable devices, once it drops below the 50% level, most likely they would have to be replaced. Li-ion batteries deteriorate pretty darn fast.

 

Battery heat is not the problem. We can already overcome that issue in other portable devices. The issue with Li-ion batteries is fire. Any type of defect or foreign element that gets in will cause fires. These fires happen relatively frequently in current applications. It isn't like a defective engine part where the car will simply stop working. Once these battery catch on fire, there's very little you can do to put it out.

 

The newer Li-Ion batteries don't deteriorate darn fast.

 

Overheating causes the insulator between the Anode and Cathod to fail. This results in a dead short, producing enough heat to cause a fire. Older Li-ion batteries had more resistance causing the overheating and poorer quality control in the insulator. Yes, foreign elements in any typle of battery can cause a fire. Note that less than 1% of Li-ion batteries have had to been recalled, all of them of old design. The real problem is that the more power a battery has, the more heat that has to be dissipated during a failure. Just means these batteries have better performance.

[battyr]

Actually, if you follow the MIT site for some time, you may see that the attitude of research for more research is changing. It takes time, for sure, but a lot of what you see on that site is being developed with commercial usage in mind. Slowly, the ivory tower becomes more practical.

 

I am a little prejudice from my Canadian Sociallist experience. I think MIT is a non-profit organization that make huge profit based on its research. All the profits go back into higher education and more research. But you still have an Ivory tower which is a necessary evil since private enterprise will not do much of the type of needed research that a University does.

[Pioneer]

Voltage is not a danger because they will not be making a physical connection from the charger to the car. The connection will be made through induction.

 

Huh?

[Pioneer]

440V 100A (which no average home has) and a power cable that is bigger than the average mans bicep !

 

 

A 600V, 100A 4 conductor SuperTrex cord is about the same diameter as a dollar coin.

[battyr]

A 600V, 100A 4 conductor SuperTrex cord is about the same diameter as a dollar coin.

 

I've seen stuff like this. They are used to connect large boats to shore power. With 600V and 4 conductors, then my guess is that more than 80% of the cord is insulation. Very important when using this amount of voltage around water. About the same thickness as a gas filler hose. I don't know the specks on this cord but I have seen shore power cables run to 100 feet length. A shorter cable can be made much thinner.

 

Remember 200A is what comes into your house. Amps are amps. As long as the Amps don't increase, the Voltage only increased the thickness of the insulator.

 

I am a little confused. At 600V that would be 3 phase power. Would that be 100A for each phase?

[battyr]

Huh?

 

Electricity does not jump from one wire to another. Instead a magnetic force is formed by current in one wire causing a current to form in another wire. This is the same way that a transformer works.

 

http://ci.pasadena.ca.us/waterandpower/pro...g_inductive.asp

[Pioneer]

I don't know the specks on this cord but I have seen shore power cables run to 100 feet length.

 

This cord is for industrial use. Very tough. You can run this over with forklifts day after day and it will not be damaged.

 

I am a little confused. At 600V that would be 3 phase power. Would that be 100A for each phase?

 

Yes. I was just giving an example of a cord that could carry the power, but smaller than the example given.

 

There is a way to get 3 phase-440V out of a standard single phase-220V service. All you need is a rotary phase converter.

[battyr]

When you're talking the quanity involved in this type of application, there's a risk of forming fluoro organic compounds. You're talking millions of battery packs that most of which will not be recycled. Look at the current batteries that we already have the ability to recycle but mostly end up in landfills and 3rd world countries.

 

Performance & cost is not the main issues here. Li-ion have a very limited life cycle. That's the major thing they have to overcome, and I have no doubt eventually a battery will solve those problems. The safety issue is a biggie as well. If they solved those problems, they certainly have to filtered down to the current devices...because they are still catching fire and exploding.

 

If I understand correctly this is more of an issue of Li-Ion polymer batteries. If these quantities of batteries are used, I would think there would be huge shortages of lithium. With the price spike, all used lithium would be recycled.

 

Fluoride is one of the most toxic minerals on the planet. It is more toxic than plutonium. I get natural Fluoride in my well water. I give even more Fluoride to my children because it is good for their teeth. It is all a matter of concentration.