dlucarelli Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 I experienced a CATASTROPHIC Engine Failure on my 2006 Ford Escape Hybrid with 65,000 miles. ("Catastrophic" means "The engine was replaced. Repair bill = $6,500.") At this point, I no longer believe Ford's claims that their hybrid technology is safe, reliable, and lowers operating costs. I am having trouble understanding a few things: * Why I would experience a catastrophic failure with a Duratech-block engine at only 65,000 miles? This is extraordinary - I am not aware of any engine failures with Ford's franchise engine with so few miles. * Why I am having difficulty engaging someone from Ford to acknowledge this significant customer issue? Ford's 'Customer Assistance Center' is of no use. In no uncertain terms, the Customer Service Rep told me that the vehicle was out of warranty and Ford could not offer any assistance. I can't even get the courtesy of a phone call from an Area Manager or a Ford Field Service engineer. It appears as if Ford does not care It is ironic that the remanufactured engine the Blue Oval and Hybrid-certified dealer installed in my vehicle has a better warranty than the original engine that experienced a catastrophic failure while on the highway @ 65-70mph with four occupants. I don't know if skilled driving, divine intervention or just plain luck allowed me to bring the vehicle to a safe stop without a crash or injury to my family. The full and gory details are located here: http://www.greenhybrid.com/discuss/f26/200...00-miles-22393/ Does anyone know how to get Ford's attention? --Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 Dan, something broke in the long block and since your not under warranty you have to pay for it. The dealers don't tear down and rebuild engines so they conduct compression test and the like to determine the damage. A rebuilt long block is the cheapest cost and the labor to exchange existing parts and reconnect the eCVT is where your taking the hit from the dealer. There is no need for Ford to be concerned about what broke in your engine because I'm sure they have paid enough for investigating newer causes of engine damage under warranty. I had a '99 Navigator that started using oil just after 10,000 miles and Ford replaced the long block and investigated the cause so I was told. At 65,000 miles the new long block started using oil so I traded the Navigator in on a new Explorer. There was something wrong with the design of the '99 engine to have two of them go bad so soon. You are the first I've heard of a FEH long block going bad, but I'm sure there are others. Ford no longer uses the 2.3L Atkinson and most likely corrected design problems in the new 2.5L Atkinson engine. Sorry to hear about your problem with your FEH but you got caught between a rock and a hard place with no extended warranty. I don't have a concern about my '05 FEH 2.3L engine after hearing about yours because I've followed all the problems of the FEH since it was introduced in the '05 model year. In fact, I'm now looking for a '10 FEH for my wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Transpower Posted August 24, 2009 Share Posted August 24, 2009 I have a 2008 Mercury Mariner Hybrid. The one thing that concerns me about the engine block is the periodic stress of shutting the engine off and turning it back on very frequently; this is called cyclic stress. Of course, engines are built to withstand great fatigue and I would think that regardless of the cyclic stress (far more than for a non-hybrid), there shouldn't be a problem. Time will tell; statistically, one failure doesn't mean much. If many 2005 hybrid engines fail then we know there's a problem, and the hybrid engines will have to be toughened up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 My real issue is not the failed engine. I've had vehicles with poor history and expensive repairs before. However, in all of those cases, when out of warranty, the dealer and manufacturer were willing to examine what happened, examine the service history, and make a decision whether to assist with the repairs - or not. Most of the time, they have assisted due to my habit of 'over-maintaining' vehicles I own. Ford has not done this. Their Customer Service Center examined one fact: 65,000 miles, and concluded "Too bad. You're on your own". Whether you believe the vehicle is reliable - or not - do you want to experience this type of customer service long term? I've had vehicles with poor history and expensive repairs before. Really? How many times? Did you have the oil changed at the same Jiffy Lube? Hee's 19 PAGES of complaints against Jiffy Lube. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/automotive/...ube_damage.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefstang Posted August 25, 2009 Share Posted August 25, 2009 Maybe if he starts ANOTHER thread, the warranty fairy will wave her wand and make his family safe again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kenp77 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Maybe if he starts ANOTHER thread, the warranty fairy will wave her wand and make his family safe again...You are missing the mans point it is because of thinking like yours and fords customer service policies that people are flocking to buy hondas and toyo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlucarelli Posted August 26, 2009 Author Share Posted August 26, 2009 (edited) Missing the point, indeed. It would have been nice to change the oil at a Ford dealer. When I went to make an appointment @ 2500 miles, the next oil change appointment was seven days hence. The other dealer in town had an appointment in nine days. So... the decision was to wait for an appointment (and put another 1500 miles on the vehicle in the meantime), or use a non-Ford lube shop that has Ford's recommended filters and Ford-spec oil. Cost was never an issue. BTW, this is the same shop that maintained my previous vehicles through 85,000 miles, 97,000 miles, and my current other vehicle through 90,000 miles. No issues. Who on this forum waits until 4,000 miles for their first oil change on a vehicle with brandy-new technology? I am not interested in opinions on the quality of one oil brand vs another. The oil meets Ford's spec. I am not interested in a Ford dealer-vs-non-Ford lube shop debate. Yes, I agree that I would have more leverage if all maintenance was done at a Ford dealership. The selling dealer had no issues with the maintenance records I provided. The selling dealer went to bat for me, and struck out. "Out of warranty. Too bad". I was lucky. No one was hurt. No crash. No totaled vehicle. Ironically, any of these terrible scenarios would have helped my cause. My previous vehicle was a GM sport utility. I was able to convince GM to pay for a wheel bearing when it failed the second time (at 44,000 miles) and pay for the 4x4 actuator and electronics when it failed @ 86,000 miles. I tried to convince them to pay to repair the failed electric windows, but alas! not a safety issue. Kudos to GM: They may have said no, but they listened to the customer. Another previous vehicle was a Toyota 4x4 truck. Oil, filters, two sets of tires, front brakes and a muffler in eight years and 97,000 miles. Ford is not listening. No empathy. Not even a returned phone call. No interest. The only interest the repairing dealership has is the mechanic's lien until the repair bill is paid. I am not interested in folks parroting Ford's view: "Past warranty. Too Bad." I have posted a problem, expressed an opinion, and asked for help. Can anyone on this forum offer help with a strategy on how to get Ford's attention? I AM interested in sharing my story, in an attempt to learn what went wrong so others who own this vehicle can potentially prevent a costly repair that, in my opinion, should not be borne by me. And I AM interested in learning: If you had problems with your Ford vehicle, how did you get Ford's attention? And I am interested in educating folks who may be considering a new FEH: Consider a long (7 year? 150,000 mile?) extended powertrain warranty and costs in your purchase decision. Bad things DO happen to these vehicles. Edited August 26, 2009 by dlucarelli Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lantern Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I will join in and say that I am sorry you had this problem. But I do not agree with your attitude of 'unless you agree with me you are wrong and I don't care what your opinion is'. That may not be what you intended to put out there but as an innocent bystander/reader I feel that is what you are saying to everyone here. The simple fact is that you have had a bad problem happen. You have taken the position that because you had a bad problem most other FEH's will have the same issue and drivers should beware and stay away from the vehicle altogether (as you stated on GH, you are 'not a fan' of the FEH anymore...although I dare say you were before this event happened). It is extremely unfortunate that you had this happen outside of the warranty period. Perhaps that is why the warranty level is set where it is. That is one of the inherent risks with an ESP. Sometimes you gamble and win and do not need it and sometimes you gamble and lose. The reality of this is that unless you can prove this is a systemic problem that other FEH drivers have experienced around the same time frame you probably have little chance to win your case. It does not make the FEH a bad vehicle but it MAY make your FEH a bad vehicle. You state you performed all the service at the Ford recommended levels or better and perhaps you did. Only you really know that. Anyone else is just speculating. You state you do not care about the argument of the oil used at Jiffy Lube versus what Ford recommended. You first said it was per Ford specs but when someone pointed out that those were different specs you seemed open to exploring that. Then when you had somenoe write that this was not an issue you changed your position back to one that Jiffy Lube had used what they were supposed to. I am not a mechanic but I work with a lot of contracts regarding engine servicing in an industry other than automotive and I can easily say that every little nuance regarding maintenance recommendations and how those are followed or deviated from weighs in heavily in how a warranty is reviewed and applied. Again I state I am sorry for your troubles and I wish you the best. Unfortunately my gut tells me that yours is an isolated case and unless you can find some evidence to prove otherwise you will not be happy with the outcome. That does not mean that Ford should not show you some empathy but their contractual level of ownership and responsibility does not appear to be there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Let's also point out that the original warranty on this vehicle when purchased was 3/36K. It was later extended to 5/60K. So you're actually 30K miles past the original warranty, and 5K past Ford's free extended warranty. Also remember that Ford does not repair vehicles so it's up to the dealer (the repairing dealer OR your selling dealer) to submit to Ford for help. If the dealer doesn't do that then there's not much that Ford can do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wptski Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I doubt it if the type of oil used even if it wasn't to Ford specs would cause a engine to blow without some early warning like noise, etc. similiar to what happened in the seventies when Ford eliminated a squirter hole on their connecting rods. Lack of oil, the engine would more than likely just seize and fast but it could break something in the process! I'd think a slow leak wouldn't have caught by engine's constant diagnostics system early on. I wouldn't blame the owner like so many are doing! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 Missing the point, indeed. I was lucky. No one was hurt. No crash. No totaled vehicle. Ironically, any of these terrible scenarios would have helped my cause. Ford is not listening. No empathy. Not even a returned phone call. No interest. The only interest the repairing dealership has is the mechanic's lien until the repair bill is paid. I am not interested in folks parroting Ford's view: "Past warranty. Too Bad." I have posted a problem, expressed an opinion, and asked for help. Can anyone on this forum offer help with a strategy on how to get Ford's attention? I AM interested in sharing my story, in an attempt to learn what went wrong so others who own this vehicle can potentially prevent a costly repair that, in my opinion, should not be borne by me. And I AM interested in learning: If you had problems with your Ford vehicle, how did you get Ford's attention? And I am interested in "educating folks who may be considering a new FEH: Consider a long (7 year? 150,000 mile?) extended powertrain warranty and costs in your purchase decision. Bad things DO happen to these vehicles. The point that has been made here and on the Greenhybid site is this: without evidence there can be no solution. Even on Greenhybrid one of the posters noted there were only two known cases of engine failure in an Escape Hybrid, yours....and the other was driver error. You seem oddly compelled to make strangers agree with you without evidence, merely at your word. "I was lucky. No one was hurt. No crash. No totaled vehicle. Ironically, any of these terrible scenarios would have helped my cause." And no Green Martians either. This is less than evidence, it's emotional posturing, something that didn't even happen. It makes me question "your cause." This isn't a Pinto gas tank, or under inflated Firestone tires on SUVs. Did you threaten to sue in part of your discussion of your "cause"? People on here don't even believe 1/4 miles times without verification: photos/time slip. We're hearing one side: yours. But reading between the lines, on their side (I'm guessing here) the mechanic rebuilding your engine must have seen something horribly wrong and relayed the information to your selling dealership. Perhaps that's when they went from going to bat for you to "Out of warranty, too bad." I'm still betting Jiffy Lube screwed something up. You've got one major asset on your side. If/when you pay the $6500 they have to tell you exactly what was repaired and why AND by law you get all the removed parts back.That's evidence. I'd be talking to the mechanic! And if they aren't going to help you out I'd take to an independent shop, cheaper and they won't be bound to Ford and may give you a more honest, impartial opinion. I think it sucks that your engine broke. But we're still not any closer to knowing anything other than your "I have posted a problem, expressed an opinion, and asked for help." "Bad things DO happen to these vehicles." Bad things happen in general. Sorry. I am empathetic. Everyone has had some sort of a mechanical problem. The alternator went out on my Mark VIII. It was way out of warranty at 72,000 miles. I took it to a trusted shop, not the more expensive dealership because I knew I was paying for it ($400.00). But, sorry you haven't presented any proof that the engine failure is inherent, widespread, common or even happened more than once (the other being driver error). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 I doubt it if the type of oil used even if it wasn't to Ford specs would cause a engine to blow without some early warning like noise, etc. similiar to what happened in the seventies when Ford eliminated a squirter hole on their connecting rods. Lack of oil, the engine would more than likely just seize and fast but it could break something in the process! I'd think a slow leak wouldn't have caught by engine's constant diagnostics system early on. I wouldn't blame the owner like so many are doing! BTW I'm not blaming anybody yet, certainly not the owner. So far I'm leaning towards Jiffy Lube screwing something up....really dumb. And not because of oil that wasn't up to Ford specs. Something caused a catastrophic failure. If the oil weight is off a bit it's not going to blow an engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wptski Posted August 26, 2009 Share Posted August 26, 2009 BTW I'm not blaming anybody yet, certainly not the owner. So far I'm leaning towards Jiffy Lube screwing something up....really dumb. And not because of oil that wasn't up to Ford specs. Something caused a catastrophic failure. If the oil weight is off a bit it's not going to blow an engine. This issue was first posted in GreenHybrid. I don't post there anymore or would have jumped in there. Most blame the owner for his use of Jiffy Lube and /or the non-spec oil used. Anything JL could have done wrong the engine diagnostics would have caught. Something just broke! I was a machine repairman in the auto industry for over 35 years and have seen many machines, gearboxes, etc. seize after running without lube oil. Most often they just slow down to a stop. I've seen gearlube turn to a thick paste and stop a machine with no damage what so ever! I've seen many shafts just break and then you see by the fracture that it's been half broken for some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atomaro Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 (edited) OP, why is it that whenever something breaks on your vehicles you try to get someone else to pay for it? Edited August 27, 2009 by atomaro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wptski Posted August 27, 2009 Share Posted August 27, 2009 OP, why is it that whenever something breaks on your vehicles you try to get someone else to pay for it? Something?? It's not a "part" of the engine, it's the whole engine! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Something?? It's not a "part" of the engine, it's the whole engine! Something in the engine broke. It's not as if the whole engine disintegrated. Something broke and a domino effect resulted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timmm55 Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Anything JL could have done wrong the engine diagnostics would have caught. I disagree. There are too many variable to make such a blanket statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereswaldo Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 * Why I would experience a catastrophic failure with a Duratech-block engine at only 65,000 miles? * Why I am having difficulty engaging someone from Ford to acknowledge this significant customer issue? Does anyone know how to get Ford's attention? --Dan These are the only questions he asked in his original post. Sorry Dan, afraid I cant answer them. Hopefully others that cant, just say so and quit piling on. My only experience with Ford Customer Service was resolved but it involved dealership fraud and threatened calls to the state atorney general. Good Luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dlucarelli Posted August 28, 2009 Author Share Posted August 28, 2009 "I picked the vehicle up today. Here are more facts, and a couple of opinions from both the service manager of the repairing dealership and the service technician who replaced the engine. * The bearing on the connecting rod for cylinder #3 was gone. Not 'spun'. Nothing left. As in bare connecting rod clanking around on the crankshaft. * Lots of metal - in the oil pan, of course, but also in the filter, on the top of the engine, and everywhere else he looked. He believes this is the remains of the bearing. I have the remains, and will post pictures for the curious. * No oil leakage. Not around the filter. Not around the dipstick. Not around the pan. Not around the filler tube. * The engine had the correct amount of oil. * There is no evidence of a disintegrating oil filter. No evidence of any clogged oil passages, other than the previously mentioned metal. * There is no evidence of sludge. The technician remarked that the oil and inside the engine was 'remarkably clean'. * There is no evidence of wear or damage on the remaining three connecting rod bearings. The technician believes the bearing was abnormally wearing for 'a while', although he could not define 'a while', due to the distribution of metal. My only indication of trouble was the (I now realize) connecting rod clanking around the crank less than... 15? 20? seconds before the engine shut down. Prior to this event, I had no indication. Normal temp. Normal engine sounds. Normal RPM. Vehicle behaving like it had for the previous 65,000 miles. I suppose you could tear the engine down, clean everything out, replace the crank, bearings and a connecting rod, and put Humpty Dumpty together again. I believe the dealership made the right choice to replace the engine. The better question: Why did the bearing fail? Both the service manager AND the technician have the opinion that this vehicle was "well cared for". They had NO issues with the brand of oil, the frequency of oil changes ("Why are you wasting money by changing it so often?"), or the brand of oil filter. The last oil change was performed on 7/30/09 at 65,029 miles, or 10 days before I left for vacation. I drove the vehicle around town for ten days before we left. No issues. No noises. I checked the oil before we pulled out. All was well. The engine failed at 65,694 miles. " ... "FYI, I have used this same Jiffy Lube for... 15? years and at least 5 vehicles. No issues." ... "So. Back to my original question. Does anyone have any strategies for getting Ford's attention? The repairing dealership is on record: "This is not your fault. There is nothing you could have done. This is an extraordinary event." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wptski Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I disagree. There are too many variable to make such a blanket statement. The OP has posted in GreenHybrid further info which I had hoped that he would have here also but I'll give the details. The tech at the dealer that worked on the replacement has stated that the engine had oil and no sludge. One of the four rod bearing was completly gone and not spun. The other rod bearing were in perfect shape. Pieces of the rod bearing were throughout the engine. So, if one out four bearings fail, what's the cause??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 The OP has posted in GreenHybrid further info which I had hoped that he would have here also but I'll give the details. The tech at the dealer that worked on the replacement has stated that the engine had oil and no sludge. One of the four rod bearing was completly gone and not spun. The other rod bearing were in perfect shape. Pieces of the rod bearing were throughout the engine. So, if one out four bearings fail, what's the cause??? Ethanol! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wptski Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 (edited) Ethanol! Being a great solvent that would have caused sludge which plugs everything up. Since no sludge was found, that isn't it. Edited August 28, 2009 by wptski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GaryG Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 Being a great solvent that would have caused sludge which plugs everything up. Since no sludge was found, that isn't it. What I'm finding in my '05 FEH is a lack of power and higher RPM from the 2.3L Atkinson because of the ethanol. In addition, at highway speeds just going over an overpass on cruise control causes the RPM to go as high as 6,000. This has been causing a severe knock sounding like someone is beating my engine with a hammer. This maybe the computers method of changing the timing to prevent the RPM from going higher but it sounds like hell. I recall in the original post on GH that he was on the highway a good distances from where he lived and could have bought gas that would change his long term fuel trim maps stored in KAM. Just a thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wptski Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 What I'm finding in my '05 FEH is a lack of power and higher RPM from the 2.3L Atkinson because of the ethanol. In addition, at highway speeds just going over an overpass on cruise control causes the RPM to go as high as 6,000. This has been causing a severe knock sounding like someone is beating my engine with a hammer. This maybe the computers method of changing the timing to prevent the RPM from going higher but it sounds like hell. I recall in the original post on GH that he was on the highway a good distances from where he lived and could have bought gas that would change his long term fuel trim maps stored in KAM. Just a thought... Severe knocking can burn a hole in a piston but it isn't going to effect a connecting rod bearing and only one of them. Since three of the four connecting rod were in perfect condition, it seems to me that it was a fits/tolerance issue with the connecting rod, bearing or crank journal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefstang Posted August 28, 2009 Share Posted August 28, 2009 I'll start by saying I'm not blaming this guy for his engine. Could it be his fault? I don't know. I will say that starting multiple threads crying to Ford for: A VEHICLE THAT IS SIGNIFIGANTLY OUT OF WARRANTY Bottom line. I've had my TV for two years, and I just had to pay $300 for two $5 capacitors, and 20 minutes worth of work. Did it suck? You bet. Am I out of warranty? Yup. Am I crying on a Samsung forum all day? Nope. The way you are coming across as saying: "Gee, my family almost died, but if it was covered that would be ok!" You've obviously already skewed things to see them as you want, so why stop there? You are missing the mans point it is because of thinking like yours and fords customer service policies that people are flocking to buy hondas and toyo Pretty sure Ford's sales are up this month, and Toyota's are down. Me telling him he's out of warranty wasn't responsible for that, either. Honda is currently putting off a recall on their small SUV that causes the tranny to miss shifts and not accelerate: Honda POS So there's Honda's customer service in action, hero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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