Ford Flaterates

[30 OTT 6]

FoMoCo is moving progressively to get back to doing business the right way in the automotive industry. One problem that used to be discussed a lot on BON was the dealer flatrates for warranty repairs. Ford dealer technicians (mechanics) used to get screwed with impossible flatrates impossed under previous regimes (Jack the Knife). I haven't read much about this since the Flatrate guys split from BON. Does anybody know if this is still an issue?

Edited February 6, 2010 by 30 OTT 6

[fordtech1]

FoMoCo is moving progressively to get back to doing business the right way in the automotive industry. One problem that used to be discussed a lot on BON was the dealer flaterates for warranty repairs. Ford dealer technicians (mechanics) used to get screwed with impossible flatrates impossed under previous regimes (Jack the Knife). I haven't read much about this since the Flaterate guys split from BON. Does anybody know if this is still an issue?

 

Yes it is still a problem. Ford warranty also looks for any possible excuse not to pay a claim. Alot of the warranty times are rediculous. For instance, a transmission cooler in a 08 escape pays 1.1 hours. This time is supposed to include. Checking out the leak to make sure thats whats leaking, go to the parts window and get the cooler, go back to vehicle and remove bumper, evacuate a/c system, replace cooler, charge a/c system, reinstall bumper, clean off fluid from leak, turn in old parts, top fluid level,and test drive, the write up repair order and turn in. Customer pay time should be close to 2.5 hours. Normal Evac and recharge a/c pays 1.4 hrs.

Another interesting warranty time is power window motors on 02-05 explorer. To replace one rear it pays something like 0.4 to replace one rear window motor. Thats 24 mins. Give me a break. Same job should pay a 1.0hr for customer pay.

 

From a Techs standpoint, we don't care whos paying, the job is the same.

Edited February 6, 2010 by fordtech1

[Marginal Economist]

Depends on the job and the tech. I know many techs who routinely flag 18 hours in less than 10. I also have seen a tech spend 22 hours on a rattle. M-Time is still very common

 

The biggest problem for Technicians is the lack of warranty work to do. Ford is selling a lot less cars and they are of much better quality. UIO is dropping and will continue to drop. Maintenance is where the customer retention is and dealerships that don't do a great job here will suffer.

 

Diesels are about the only place where there is still plenty of warranty work.

[theDuff]

Last fall I became the dealer's sole diesel drivability guy, and let me tell you, the diesel warranty pays a lot better then anything else. I'm digging that. But I agree with Fordtech, any door's interior repair is a joke. .2 to pull panel without breaking anything, .2 for minor internal door adjustment, .1 for a door handle, its rediculous. TSB's that you can't claim with any other operation even though it took more than just doing a tsb. Hopefully you get some customer pay work sprinkled in there somewhere, because if all you did was warranty all week you would probably only make 35 hours in a 45 hour week. Even then you're looking pretty good. Hey Fordtech, do you figure out your own slts ops? I found that most warranty clerks can't make heads or tails of the warranty write up and end up shorting you. I normally write a novel on the back of the r.o., you probably do too. Use the slts tab in oasis and search through the ops after your repair. You might be leaving hours on the table. You might already be doing this, I don't know.

[fordtech1]

Last fall I became the dealer's sole diesel drivability guy, and let me tell you, the diesel warranty pays a lot better then anything else. I'm digging that. But I agree with Fordtech, any door's interior repair is a joke. .2 to pull panel without breaking anything, .2 for minor internal door adjustment, .1 for a door handle, its rediculous. TSB's that you can't claim with any other operation even though it took more than just doing a tsb. Hopefully you get some customer pay work sprinkled in there somewhere, because if all you did was warranty all week you would probably only make 35 hours in a 45 hour week. Even then you're looking pretty good. Hey Fordtech, do you figure out your own slts ops? I found that most warranty clerks can't make heads or tails of the warranty write up and end up shorting you. I normally write a novel on the back of the r.o., you probably do too. Use the slts tab in oasis and search through the ops after your repair. You might be leaving hours on the table. You might already be doing this, I don't know.

 

I am very fortunate that my warranty clerk is very good at getting us the max he can. He used to be a tech. I have worked at other dealers that this was not the case. To be a good warranty clerk, you have to know about a car,if not, you will miss some ops. The only way I can make up my time on warranty is M-time from electrical. I do a ton of electrical,interior. and water leaks. If a TSB is involved, your screwed, doesn't matter how much you write. However, a good story on everything else is the key. But still, Ford has gotten really tight on diag times. A/C used to be great money. Not anymore. They have cut a/c times so much, I hate to do it.

I still think flat rate is out dated. I almost always get more that the 50hrs I put in. When times were good, I was doing 85-95hrs no sweat. Now its hard because we are slower and the times are cut down. I think that if you want the best customer satisfaction then the techs need to be paid a base pay and a commission over a certain production level. Its hard to spend the neccessary time needed to repair some complicated systems. Its also hard to have the desire to spend hours on something that you know you will not get paid on. I am actually looking to change professions in a couple of years. I used to love this trade. Now I am burn't out. I want to do this as a hobbie not a career. The issue I have is the money. Its hard to find other fields that will make the same money as a good productive tech makes. As I posted before, its hard to go into work and deal with the dealership BS. Some of us really try and have integrity. However, the crook of the shop is protected by management and has terrible work ethics, and makes more money doing flushes and brake jobs, then me doing Nav installs and water leaks and tedious work.

 

Ok I am done ranting.

[fordtech1]

one thing you have to note is that per hour labor rates are already much much higher than in many other countries. in a lot of places, labor cost is like 10% of parts cost. here in the US its like 50/50.

 

Speaking of parts. Recently it seems parts prices are out of sight. Its hard to sell a job when a OEM part costs so much. A fuel pump for a 00 Navigator was $500.00. Thats hard to sell.

[theDuff]

for a consumer, $500 of labor is a much harder sell. People who have white collar jobs earn about $15 an hour. Why are mechanic labor rates $75/hour then?

 

Are you serious?! Your not just paying a mechanic. Your paying a mechanic, plus shop supplies, plus shop equipment, plus power to run the tools, plus diagnostic software, plus your salesman's commission (a service writer), plus the cumulative knowledge of every mechanic there, plus environmental disposal, plus heat for the building, etc... I wish I made $75 an hour. Are you saying that any white collar job is more deserving of $15 an hour than a mechanic?! I hope not. You know, I have a degree too.

 

Say I'm going to do a job that takes 6.6 hours($75 X 6.6 = $500). Thats over 75% of the day using special tools, equipment, and a specialized skill. What do you think a plumber or electrician would charge if he was at your house all day. Furthermore, he's not even using 10% of the amount of specialized tools required to do any job on a car that takes 6.6 hours. I love how people think we should give everything away. We have free diagnosis at our dealer and some people come to the shop just for that so there brother can fix whatever we said was wrong. I just love that. I don't know of any other profession that an employee is required to purchase tens of thousands of dollars worth of tools out of their own pocket to do their job properly. Lawyers and clergy were close with all their books a while back but nowadays you can get a lot of that on a dvd for quite a bit less.

[theDuff]

one thing you have to note is that per hour labor rates are already much much higher than in many other countries. in a lot of places, labor cost is like 10% of parts cost. here in the US its like 50/50.

 

10%? Puhleaze. Link? Maybe in a third world country where you're paying a grease monkey $5 a day. Would it be fixed right the first time though? If I replace a head gasket say, parts really aren't that high. But it will take me all day. On a diesel, two days. So yeah, labor can be higher than parts. Say I replace your $600 HID headlight assembly. Labor on that might be real low, like $20 depending. Now parts are crazy and labor is low.

[Ralph Greene]

I am very fortunate that my warranty clerk is very good at getting us the max he can. He used to be a tech. I have worked at other dealers that this was not the case. To be a good warranty clerk, you have to know about a car,if not, you will miss some ops. The only way I can make up my time on warranty is M-time from electrical. I do a ton of electrical,interior. and water leaks. If a TSB is involved, your screwed, doesn't matter how much you write. However, a good story on everything else is the key. But still, Ford has gotten really tight on diag times. A/C used to be great money. Not anymore. They have cut a/c times so much, I hate to do it.

I still think flat rate is out dated. I almost always get more that the 50hrs I put in. When times were good, I was doing 85-95hrs no sweat. Now its hard because we are slower and the times are cut down. I think that if you want the best customer satisfaction then the techs need to be paid a base pay and a commission over a certain production level. Its hard to spend the neccessary time needed to repair some complicated systems. Its also hard to have the desire to spend hours on something that you know you will not get paid on. I am actually looking to change professions in a couple of years. I used to love this trade. Now I am burn't out. I want to do this as a hobbie not a career. The issue I have is the money. Its hard to find other fields that will make the same money as a good productive tech makes. As I posted before, its hard to go into work and deal with the dealership BS. Some of us really try and have integrity. However, the crook of the shop is protected by management and has terrible work ethics, and makes more money doing flushes and brake jobs, then me doing Nav installs and water leaks and tedious work.

 

Ok I am done ranting.

 

 

If you are a good tech with a good dealership....stick with it. All careers have good years and tough years. The grass is not greener on other side of fence....usually. Vehicles are just going to get more complicated, and someone has to repair them. You'll have work your whole life. Not many professions can say that.

[theDuff]

mechanic should get 15 an hour just like the regular white collar guy gets. plumbers, electricians, doctors and lawyers are other bullshit overpaid jobs just like mechanics are. If the mechanic gets $15 an hour, the shop should be charging something like 30/hour, not 75/hour. and you are right, the shop should be purchasing the tools and sharing them with mechanics to improve utilization instead of each mechanic having their own personal tools.

 

the service writer should be paid with a salary and not by commission so they will not recommend unnecessary repairs

 

 

Calling my occupation bull is unacceptable bahavior.

[Marginal Economist]

mechanic should get 15 an hour just like the regular white collar guy gets. plumbers, electricians, doctors and lawyers are other bullshit overpaid jobs just like mechanics are. If the mechanic gets $15 an hour, the shop should be charging something like 30/hour, not 75/hour. and you are right, the shop should be purchasing the tools and sharing them with mechanics to improve utilization instead of each mechanic having their own personal tools.

 

the service writer should be paid with a salary and not by commission so they will not recommend unnecessary repairs

 

You have no idea what you are talking about.

 

1. Please look at the overhead at a dealership. I know stores that pay over 100K month in rent. They have over $1M in parts inventory. They carry 300+ cars in stock. They do purchase special tools, pay for training, advertise, dispatch work, pay the utlities, and maintain the facility.. This is before a technician, advisor, porter, parts counterperson, or manager is paid.

 

2. There are different levels of technician. A "C" level tech may make 12-15/hour and do LOFs and basic maintenance work. A "B" technician may do brakes, light line, and trim repair and make 15-20/hour. The"A" techs do the heavy repair, diesel, tranny, and heavily specialized repair and make 22-30/hour. A Senior Master Technician has been through hundreds of hours of classroom training, much more web based courses, ASE certs, and 5 years of experience.

 

3. An advisor on salary would be the last to your car to greet you, call you back, or go above the minimum for you. Incentive based pay is the way to go. An advisor needs to be quick to your car, perform a walkaround, present a multipoint inspection, write up your car, present the findings, inform you of any addiional work, get prior approval, work with aftermarket warranty companies, follow up on SOP, and achieve a great CSI score. For this they earn about 5% of the ticket.

 

Once again, you are entitled to your opinion, but you are way off base.

[Blue II]

i meant to say your rates are bull. if that is unacceptable to you then so be it.

 

The tech's rates are not bull.

 

A dealer will charge $75-$85/hr. A top tier tech should see $30/hr. It's not unreasonable to see a 100% mark up on parts either.

 

Go bitch to the dealer not about the tech salary. Go find a plumber or electrician for $30/hr. Good luck finding one.

[Noah Harbinger]

an engineer who designs the car only sees $15/hr why should a top tier tech get $30?

 

only in the US are plumbers and electricians that expensive. no other society is willing to pay so much for labor.

 

 

Please elaborate on your methodology. What wage surveys did you examine, and how did you normalize their figures?

[Sixt9coug]

an engineer who designs the car only sees $15/hr why should a top tier tech get $30?

 

only in the US are plumbers and electricians that expensive. no other society is willing to pay so much for labor.

 

 

What engineer is only making $15 an hour? That's roughly $30K a year. Seriously?

 

Techs take home less than half of that $75/hr gross.

[Noah Harbinger]

If you look at china for example

http://www.worldsala...org/china.shtml

car mechanics earn a monthly income of $122, which is lower than that of a carpenter, office clerk, etc.

 

what kind of extra service to american mechanics provide that allow them to earn in one day than a chinese mechanic earns in a month?!?!?

 

So.... You want to be more like China?

[RichardJensen]

with what you said technicians make an average of 20/hr. when i pay for labor, it should not become 80. think about it. the dealership, given that they add value by providing the facility, etc, buys parts and labor at a certain price, and sells parts and labor to the consumer at a higher price. Whats with jacking up the price of labor by 400%?

'add value'?

 

Stop looking at this from a Marxist perspective.

 

Shop rates are about costs and profit.

 

How much does that shop cost to heat? How much does it cost to train the techs? How much does their equipment cost? How much does the service staff cost? How much does the computer software cost per month? How much does their unemployment insurance cost? How much does their workman's comp insurance cost? How much does their liability insurance cost? How much do medicare and SSI cost? And so on and so forth.

 

Want to save money?

 

DO IT YOURSELF

Edited February 7, 2010 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

Why can I get an oil change and brake job at a dealership in romania for $20US

Did you just compare the US to Romania?

 

 

[RichardJensen]

Why can I get an oil change and brake job at a dealership in romania for $20US

Again:

 

 

Edited February 7, 2010 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

Edited February 7, 2010 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

[RangerM]

A movie theater owner doesn't charge $5.00 for popcorn because the guy behind the counter is paid so much. He charges it because it's where he carries his overhead and makes most (if not all) the profit.

 

From what I know of car dealer inner-workings, the service bay could be considered a parallel.

Edited February 7, 2010 by RangerM

[RichardJensen]

Parts & service are higher profit than new cars, but I don't know if they're higher profit than used cars. Dealer originated loans and insurance also carry very high margins.

 

In fact, I would venture to guess that an F&I rep turns more profit over to the dealership than any other single employee--If an F&I rep originates only two twenty thousand dollar loans a day, between the origination fees & the buy rate, the F&I rep would be kicking out around $1400 (if the buy rate's .25% lower than the sell rate and the origination fees are $500 each), and taking considerably less than a service tech in overhead. A good service tech @ $90/hour might do $800-$900 billable, with a lot more overhead. Say a 40% commission on a $1100 credit life policy, and you're looking at another $440--something in the neighborhood of $1800 for writing three deals in a day (although my memory fails me when it comes to the typical commission for F&I policies--so I could be totally off on that one).

 

On the whole the service department probably puts more money in the till than the F&I office, but the F&I office has a higher margin, I think.

[MY93SHO]

heating is an unnecessary luxury. it shouldn't cost anything to train techs. their equipment is a fixed cost. half the service staff should be fired. computer software is unnecessarily expensive and programmers should be paid half of what they are being paid these days. insurance is unnecessary. and so forth.

 

Why can I get an oil change and brake job at a dealership in romania for $20US while the same package costs $200 in the US? There's something wrong with shops in the US.

 

"heating is an unnecessary luxury."

 

Fuck you Nr9. YOU work in a shop when it's -25F out. Even when it's heated it's no fun when the big door is being opened every 10 minutes.

 

You sir are a complete waste of skin! :slap:

Edited February 7, 2010 by MY93SHO

[RichardJensen]

tell me what the US has with quality of life over romania, or china, for that matter.

That's it. Thread's closed.

 

Anyone capable of asking a question like this in all seriousness is utterly incapable of understanding an answer to it.

 

You, sir, have forfeited the honor of receiving a rational response.