I hate to say "I told you so", BUT.....

[Ovaltine]

This in from the newsroom of Automotive News

 

Sources: Porsche, Hyundai make big gains in quality study

 

Porsche and Hyundai will emerge as the biggest winners Wednesday when J.D. Power and Associates releases its 2006 Initial Quality Study, industry sources say.

 

Porsche will vault to the top spot overall in the study, improving from No. 32 in last year's ranking, making Porsche the top European nameplate.

 

Hyundai will place third, up from No. 11 in 2005. That makes the Korean automaker the top mass-market nameplate.

 

Toyota will round out the top four, moving up three spots from No. 7 last year.

 

The study, which measures quality after 90 days of ownership, asks owners to rate vehicle quality on 135 attributes.

 

 

And yes, we ALL know how the IQS rankings (initial quality studies) aren't the same as Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) rankings over a three year period. We've read it all here before. Just don't forget that a look at the online data online appears to illustrate that a high IQS generally has a very positive effect on VDS for many of the vehicle makers who achieve it..

 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

 

-Ovaltine

Edited June 8, 2006 by Ovaltine

[KWMJ-KTP]

Here is a link to the J. D. Power Press Release......

 

http://www.jdpower.com/corporate/news/rele...pdf/2006082.pdf

 

Here is how everyone ranked.......

 

Edited June 7, 2006 by KWMJ-KTP

[NickF1011]

Lincoln and Jaguar still impress. Looks like Mercury fell a bit from last year if I recall. Ford's still solidly "middle pack"...not great, but not bad. Volvo is a bit higher than I remember them being. Mazda still looks kinda crummy. And WTF is wrong with Land Rover????

 

Glad to see Scion still there near the bottom. :happy feet:

[marc-o]

Can't wait to see range's thoughts on this... :blah:

[Patriotic]

You told us so? :blah: :blah: :blah:

 

You must be Korean. That's the only reason I can think of for your posts. Noone else could be that excited over yet another ubiquitous Asian automakers good fortune.

 

Just another example of the popular anti-American rhetoric. :cheerleader: :cheerleader: :cheerleader: GO HYUNDAI! GO ASIAN! GO, GO, GO! ANY PRODUCT FROM THAT PART OF THE WORLD IS DESTINED TO BECOME THE BEST!!! :cheerleader: :cheerleader:

Edited June 7, 2006 by Patriotic

[one2gamble]

this entire "study" is based on perception

[Michael Reynolds]

That is an impressive showing for Hyundai, but it's nothing new for that brand. Take the Sonata, even before the major refresh, it took the IQS award in 2005 for it's category. Good for Hyundai.

 

I'd be more concerned, as are most consumers, about long term durability. Both Hyundai and Kia have yet to prove themselves from a long-term perspective, which is where the Japanese have typically handed everyone their collective-arses (from a car perspective).

[Anthony]

Nothing wrong with them going up. I have two Hyundais.... No problems at all. They are great cars. I originally bought them as commuter vehicles to just throw miles on without a care, but have grown to really enjoy them.

 

In honesty....most new cars are pretty high quality compared to just 10 - 15 years ago if properly maintained and taken care of.

Edited June 8, 2006 by Intrepidatious

[xstapr]

J.D. Power awards are a dime a dozen, everybody gets one. Hell, my kid got

one out of a bubblegum machine.

[Ovaltine]

You told us so? :blah: :blah: :blah:

 

You must be Korean. That's the only reason I can think of for your posts. Noone else could be that excited over yet another ubiquitous Asian automakers good fortune.

 

 

Sorry, but no, I'm a 4th generation American of German/English descent.

 

I AM a person however that does like using data to affirm observations I've made and stated here that were essentially called "bulls---" in countless responses to discussion threads that I either started or participated in.

 

And as I've stated before, car makers like Ford and GM cannot continue to ignore the likes of supposed "bottom feeders" like Hyundai and Kia. The primary purpose of most of my postings have been to make sure that the people who read this board AND can effect change at FoMoCo hear that message loud and clear.

 

So call me what you will, but perhaps it will be people like myself and the posting of our experiences that help to cause the scales to fall from the eyes of the likes of Ford/GM AND the UAW. Only with clear vision and accurate perception can things change for the better.

 

-Ovaltine

Edited June 8, 2006 by Ovaltine

[swenson88]

I'd be more curious to see if the 90-day studies correlate with the 3-year studies three years later. Anyone have the most recent 3-year study as well as the 90-day study from 3 years ago? From what I remember a few different articles stating was that there was limited correlation at best between the initial quality of a vehicle and the long-term reliability, but it could be true.

[Mark B. Morrow]

I'd be more curious to see if the 90-day studies correlate with the 3-year studies three years later. Anyone have the most recent 3-year study as well as the 90-day study from 3 years ago? From what I remember a few different articles stating was that there was limited correlation at best between the initial quality of a vehicle and the long-term reliability, but it could be true.

 

 

I agree 90 days may have very little predictive reliability about how a car holds up over the long haul. That said, My mother's 2004 Hyundai Sonata LX has performed very well over the last 1.5 years with no problems or dealer service. Granted, she doesn't drive very far with only 5,000 miles to date. It is all city driving over Pittsburgh's less than adaquate (read Crappy) roads.

 

One of the best things Ford can do to change the perception of a quality disparity vs. Honda and Toyota would be to extend the warranty. Hyundai's 10 year warranty is a big selling feature and goes a long way to convince people that its current offerings are of high quality unlike its earlier cars which were POS.

[Spyderman]

The study methodology was changed this year, you can not compare previous years to this years rankings. J.D. Powers now marks down manufacturers like BMW for having complex systems to understand like iDrive. If a system is difficult to use, it is counted as a "design defect" even if it works flawlessly. I think this is a poor decision and gives an inaccurate assessment of the more sophisticated designs like those from BMW and Mercedes. If people can't learn how to use a system, they shouldn't have purchased the car in the first place, but it should hardly be considered defective.

[Guest Sixcav]

And as I've stated before, car makers like Ford and GM cannot continue to ignore the likes of supposed "bottom feeders" like Hyundai and Kia.

 

 

Do you honestly believe that Ford and GM just ignore all these other companies? Do you really believe that all these folks that manage Ford and GM are just some huge group of idiots who don't pay attention to the auto market? You think they don't understand what's at stake for them? Do you have some proof that Ford and GM regard Hyundai and Kia as "bottom feeders". Don't you think maybe there might be some smart people over there at Ford that are saying "Hey, take a look at this new stuff from Kia." ? I mean if we here on this little piss ant, bullshit forum can figure that out, don't you think maybe the guys running Ford can? I mean I know it's a big shot in the arm for your personal ego to make comments about how you figured all of this out and the big dummies over at Ford and GM didn't and oh by the way you told us so. But I got bad news for you buddy, you didn't figure out anything that the rest of us haven't and certainly nothing that the folks running Ford and GM didn't already know. So consider this the needle to burst your little bubble. If Kia makes good cars, good for them. I have to agree with Intrepdatious, the level of quality among most new cars is pretty close these days. It's actually hard to find a car on the US market that is an out and out POS. So if Hyundai gets you all wet, by God drive the damn thing. But please don't try to pretend to the rest of us that its some harbinger of disaster for Ford and GM, because that's just horseshit.

 

And now it's time for the dancing banana :bandance:

[Spyderman]

Kia is rated below average, it ended up in the bottom third of the rankings. So I don't quite understand the "I told you so" part of this thread.

[Ron W.]

J.D. Power awards are a dime a dozen, everybody gets one. Hell, my kid got

one out of a bubblegum machine.

 

 

Man you got that right in my opinion JD (just dumb) Powers and Jessie Jackson have alot in common, both collect money while serving NO pupose.

[Jazzhead]

So Porsche goes from 32nd to first in one year? Same cars, same factories?

 

Toyota's number four, but Scion earns worse marks than almost every domestic nameplate?

 

Buick drops from the top five to below average, even as the plant that builds the LaCrosse earns the Gold Award for quality for the second year in a row?

 

Sorry, folks, but this survey just ain't credible.

[jaydez]

This is the reason my girlfriend and I are going to pick up her 06 Corolla this weekend and that I'm trying to sell my Mazda B-3000 and get a civic.

 

BTW... I dont agree with the Nissan... go test drive an 06 Sentra and tell me it puto together right. It's worse than my mom's 03 SVT Focus!

[Ovaltine]

Kia is rated below average, it ended up in the bottom third of the rankings. So I don't quite understand the "I told you so" part of this thread.

 

Back on May 3 2006, I stated in this thread:

http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index...594entry44594 :

 

"...And finally..... the J.D. Power LTQ stats you keep shoveling out about KIA (and Hyundai too) will most likely be history by around 2009. I've discussed that on this same thread before. KIA's line is 90% revamped as of 2006, and the first car they revamped, my 2004.5 Spectra, took *2nd* place in the 2005 J.D. Powers IQS study... AHEAD of the Corolla and Civic. Read up online, and there's discussion of high IQS being linked to high LTQ. 2006 (all new vehicle lineup) + 3 years = 2009. YOU do the math."

 

 

Granted the topic of this thread is IQS not VDS (LTQ as I erroneously referred to it above), but I still think my point is valid. Hyundai made the biggest IQS jump of the two this time around (8 pts), but KIA also made a 4 pt stride (last year's IQS was 140), putting it within 9 pts of Ford.

 

Also.... if you look at the IQS graph in the earlier post above, KIA's actually in the lower portion of the middle third of the rankings. And as far as being below average, it appears that it's in *good* company down there. To its north is Pontiac, Volvo and Buick, and to its south is Mercedes, Scion, and BMW.

 

Since the operations of Hyundai and KIA are becoming more integrated every day, I can only logically conclude that a good portion of Hyundai's quality control will seep over into the KIA realm, and thus potentially lift it up to near or above average IQS in the next couple of years. My redesigned 2005 Spectra's placement at #2 in IQS last year seems to be some of the "first fruits" of that thinking.

 

Does that help explain the reasoning behind my thread's subject?

 

-Ovaltine

Edited June 9, 2006 by Ovaltine

[Ovaltine]

Interesting article and debate about JD Power and the whole IQS vs. VDS issue.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/03/truedel...er-methodology/

 

 

It doesn't support my position that links IQS and VDS, but it does appear to be a good debate by knowledgable people on the topic. See.... at least I can be objective on issues like this! B)

 

 

I'll keep looking to see if I can find the articles discussing a postive link between the two. I *know* that I read several things in the past that claimed that.

 

 

-Ovaltine

[marc-o]

Sorry, but no, I'm a 4th generation American of German/English descent.

 

I AM a person however that does like using data to affirm observations I've made and stated here that were essentially called "bulls---" in countless responses to discussion threads that I either started or participated in.

 

And as I've stated before, car makers like Ford and GM cannot continue to ignore the likes of supposed "bottom feeders" like Hyundai and Kia. The primary purpose of most of my postings have been to make sure that the people who read this board AND can effect change at FoMoCo hear that message loud and clear.

 

So call me what you will, but perhaps it will be people like myself and the posting of our experiences that help to cause the scales to fall from the eyes of the likes of Ford/GM AND the UAW. Only with clear vision and accurate perception can things change for the better.

 

-Ovaltine

 

Oh you know how people are on here... as soon as something is said that questions Ford/Domestics or the status quo, it's anti-American and must mean you're some twisted, self-destructive psychomaniac. Self-improvement through contemplation is out of question.

 

The 2005 JD Power study was perceived as a reliable and credible report on the reliability of vehicles by board members- who agreed with the ratings. JD Power sure was better than say... Consumer Reports! Now the study is updated to address past concerns about accuracy and fairness - and all of a sudden it's no longer credible...suspiciously when the results change and no back the board's opinion.

 

"Clear vision and accurate perception"... yeah I wish. I've always thought surveys are of only limited use, but this turnaround is just nauseating.

[range]

Whats wrong Marco?...are you mad that Hyundai beat Honda and Acura in quality....again! :lol:

 

Or are you just mad that the Zephyr in it's first year of production outperformed the Acura TL . :lol: :lol:

 

Either way it is hillarious to watch your inconsistency on full display....

 

 

Wasn't it you who said the following: (and I quote)

 

....."As for Hyundai beating Honda, that was in the debatable JD Power IQS survey"

 

......"The one quality survey discussed, as far as I can see, is the JD Power survey, which is perceived by MANY (myself included) as very imprecise, inconsistant and lacking in depth."

 

 

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

So now you are chastising people for debating a survey you YOURSELF called "DEBATABLE"

 

Un-frikin-believable how "very imprecise, inconsistant and lacking in depth" you are Marc-o !!!! :lol:

Edited June 9, 2006 by range

[RichP]

BTW... I dont agree with the Nissan... go test drive an 06 Sentra and tell me it puto together right. It's worse than my mom's 03 SVT Focus!

 

 

The '06 Sentra is ancient. The '07 is a completely new car, due out any day now.

 

Nissan's fall from quality in the last few years is due to the Canton plant, and the entirely new cars coming out of it with an entirely new work force (Quest, Armada, Titan). As you can see, they're righting the ship. I have an '03 Maxima that is a stellar car; it still rides and drives like the day I drove it off the lot. Very tight and well-put together vehicle.

 

That's not to take anything away from Ford, my wife's '04 Explorer has been great as well, and her '01 Escape before that, and the '08 Freestyle coming up next year (she's a Ford-a-holic). :happy feet:

[grbeck]

Whats wrong Marco?...are you mad that Hyundai beat Honda and Acura in quality....again! :lol:

 

Or are you just mad that the Zephyr in it's first year of production outperformed the Acura TL . :lol: :lol:

 

Either way it is hillarious to watch your inconsistency on full display....

Wasn't it you who said the following: (and I quote)

 

....."As for Hyundai beating Honda, that was in the debatable JD Power IQS survey"

 

......"The one quality survey discussed, as far as I can see, is the JD Power survey, which is perceived by MANY (myself included) as very imprecise, inconsistant and lacking in depth."

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

So now you are chastising people for debating a survey you YOURSELF called "DEBATABLE"

 

Un-frikin-believable how "very imprecise, inconsistant and lacking in depth" you are Marc-o !!!! :lol:

 

What's even more hilarious is your silence now that not only Honda, but also Acura, have beaten Lincoln, Ford and Mercury - which confirms the results of the long-term surveys conducted by Consumer Reports.

 

Seems to me that you once placed lots of faith in J.D. Powers. Supposedly Acura was washed up because it was beaten by Lincoln...I guess Lincoln is now on the ropes, as it is beaten not only by Acura, but Honda...and Hyundai!

 

And, anticipating the response that this is an INITIAL quality survey - J.D. Powers itself said in the press release that the initial quality results usually line up with the long-term quality survey results.

[NickF1011]

And, anticipating the response that this is an INITIAL quality survey - J.D. Powers itself said in the press release that the initial quality results usually line up with the long-term quality survey results.

 

Usually, but not always. Look at how Jaguar fares in the Long Term Study.

 

Ford and Mercury in recent years have actually seen an increase in the Long Term Dependability Study compared to the IQS.