The idiocy of a compact Lincoln

[Ford Jellymoulds]

You can't buy a 4-pot 3-Series in the US.

 

If Lincoln want to stay alive sell outside the isolation of North America they will need them, the current trend is for buying 4 pots in the USA.

 

 

[NickF1011]

If Lincoln want to stay alive sell outside the isolation of North America they will need them, the current trend is for buying 4 pots in the USA.

 

The current trend in luxury vehicles in North America is anything but 4-cylinder engines. Stick with your European commentary.

Edited June 28, 2010 by NickF1011

[RichardJensen]

If Lincoln want to stay alive sell outside the isolation of North America they will need them, the current trend is for buying 4 pots in the USA.

 

 

 

BMW needs way more volume than Lincoln to turn a profit. To speak of their relative needs as though they were similar ignores the fundamental difference between the company BMW and the brand Lincoln.

[Biker16]

 

Building a compact Lincoln assumes one, if not two things:

 

1) Lincoln is enough of an aspirational brand that customers will gladly suffer the inconveniences of a compact car, in order to own a Lincoln (cf. BMW 1-series).

 

Your opionin is based upon the asuption that there are no compact cars that are Comfortable, and that people are unwilling to sacrifice size to own a luxury car.

 

2) That there is a meaningful demand for compact luxury cars period.

WRong the best selling luxury car in the world is a compact car

 

there is demand for a compact luxury car.

 

Frankly, assumption number one is so ridiculous it doesn't deserve a rational response, and assumption number two can be addressed by looking at the TWO other car companies that make compact luxury cars besides BMW (we'll do MB a kindness and call the C-class a midsizer).

 

Total compact luxury sales in the US in May of this year were 496 A3s, 844 1-Series, and 368 C30s for a grand total of 1,708 compact luxury vehicles.

 

 

the 3 series and lexus IS are compact cars, about the same size as the Compact focus. you are excluding the heart of the market, to proof your point.

 

Hold your own posts up to the mirror, Biker, and look at them.

 

Tell me if they are in anyway defensible as a rational contribution to the topic at hand:

 

The question, as laid out in the original post is whether a car like the Concept C should be built. My opinion is quite clear, and supported primarily by reference to 2-box sub $30k luxury vehicles--vehicles that are approximately the size and price of this putative "MKC"

 

I've clearly elucidated my opinions on small Lincolns that have strong chances of success and small Lincolns that seem doomed to failure.

 

What have you provided in rational opposition? Have you done anything besides refer to the size of the BMW 3-Series and attack me personally?

no where in your original psot do you mention the MKc by name, you only refered to the " compact lincoln" which to me meant any small lincoln model. so either you hate all small lincolns or just the MKc you never make it clear in the title of this thread, nor in your first post.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Biker16

[Biker16]

The current trend in luxury vehicles in North America is anything but 4-cylinder engines. Stick with your European commentary.

the trend is towards msaller engines in luxtury cars ,.lincoln is no exception, V8s are becoming rarer and audi and acura have been using I4s for decades.

 

It is not out of the question that the migration to I4s that has happened in mainstream models would spread to luxury makes, too.

 

the MKz already offers a I4.

[NickF1011]

the MKz already offers a I4.

 

Only in the hybrid.

[Ford Jellymoulds]

BMW needs way more volume than Lincoln to turn a profit. To speak of their relative needs as though they were similar ignores the fundamental difference between the company BMW and the brand Lincoln.

 

If you think Lincoln will survive with just above 1,000 per model you are living in cloud Cuckkoo Land Richard, how much profit did Lincoln last year? How much does it cost to develop a car with 1,000 sales a month will Ford be able to afford the luxury. Americans in the USA are moving out of the V6 in 4-pots wake up on mass at the moment.

 

Ford need a luxury brand like Lincoln to compliment it, if its to survive have a future it will have to sell outside North America to pay its way.

 

This is the sort of car folk drive out the isolation of North America that the other 95% of the world wants, and the sort of car Lincoln should sell in Europe.

 

 

BMW is enhancing its most popular model's range with the introduction of the new 320d EfficientDynamics Edition, Based on the 320d, the EfficientDynamics Edition is claimed to be the most fuel-efficient and lowest-emission car in BMW's current model range with a combined fuel consumption of 4.1 lt diesel/100km, which is equal to 57.4mpg US or 68.9 mpg UK, and a CO2 rating of 109g/km in the EU test cycle.

The 320d EfficientDynamics is powered by a 2.0-liter four-cylinder diesel engine with a single turbocharger that develops 163 HP between 3,500rpm to 4,200rpm and 360Nm or 266 lb-ft of torque from 1,750rpm to 3,000rpm.Just to get an idea of how low these figures are, in the EU test cycle, Honda's dedicated mild-hybrid, the smaller-sized Insight, is rated at 4.4 lt petrol/100km (53.5mpg US or 64.2mpg UK)

 

The sprint from zero to 100 km/h (62mph) comes in 8.2 seconds while acceleration in fifth gear from 80km/h to 120km/h (50mph to 75mph) takes 9.6 seconds. The saloon can reach a top speed of 220 km/h or 137mph

 

LINK

 

 

[RichardJensen]

the best selling luxury car in the world is a compact car

Yes. A compact BMW.

 

What is the title of this thread?

 

Does it refer to BMW?

 

No.

 

It refers to LINCOLN.

 

Further, you cannot go from a midsize car to a compact car without sacrificing both interior volume and cargo volume as that is, by very definition, the difference between a midsize car and a compact car. Buying a car with less interior volume entails sacrificing accommodations and cargo hauling ability.

 

you never make it clear in the title of this thread, nor in your first post.

 

I beg your pardon. I had thought the selection of vehicles for comparison (cheap 2-boxes) as well as the general familiarity of the board with the ONLY compact Lincoln concept shown to date was sufficient.

[RichardJensen]

Only in the hybrid.

 

Which isn't even on the market yet.

[NickF1011]

Which isn't even on the market yet.

 

Eh, close enough. :P

[RichardJensen]

how much profit did Lincoln last year

 

Understand that about the only costs Ford has to amortize with Lincoln are the costs of the sheet metal design and tooling.

 

Compare that with the costs that BMW has to amortize with a new 3-Series.

 

Ford is going to build a C-sized Lincoln (hopefully a CUV). Components on that platform will be amortized over a global production count that will exceed--and may almost double--the total number of BMWs sold per year.

 

The base platform for the C/D Lincoln will be amortized over close to, if not over 500k sales per year.

 

The base platform for the D Lincoln will be amortized over about 200-300k sales per year.

 

BMW would LOVE to have Ford's volume efficiencies.

Edited June 28, 2010 by RichardJensen

[Ford Jellymoulds]

The current trend in luxury vehicles in North America is anything but 4-cylinder engines. Stick with your European commentary.

 

Lincoln won't survive as a brand with Ford unless they can become Fords Luxury brand worldwide Nick where have you been hiding these last few years?

 

Aston Martin bit of a lull

 

Jaguar/Land Rover bit of a lull

 

Volvo bit of a lull

 

Mercury bit of a lull

 

Lincoln North American makes big cars only we don't, can't ("Have no BMW can do") do the rest of the world, V8's are a dodo & USA buyer moving out of V6's into 4 pots on mass current trend -

bit of a lull coming?

 

Lincoln need to make a compact!!

Edited June 28, 2010 by Ford Jellymoulds

[RichardJensen]

http://www.bmwcoop.com/2010/05/06/bmw-teams-up-with-mercedes-in-order-to-cut-costs/

 

Do you think this is a decision that the boys in Bavaria enjoyed making?

 

BMW and Mercedes are under pressure from Audi (and, in the US, Toyota). Do not underestimate the efficiencies Ford can bring to bear on Lincoln, as opposed to copying BMW's strategies.

[Biker16]

Yes. A compact BMW.

 

What is the title of this thread?

 

Does it refer to BMW?

 

No.

 

It refers to LINCOLN.

 

Further, you cannot go from a midsize car to a compact car without sacrificing both interior volume and cargo volume as that is, by very definition, the difference between a midsize car and a compact car. Buying a car with less interior volume entails sacrificing accommodations and cargo hauling ability.

 

So lincoln cannot offer a Compact Car?

 

did you know the CTS has as much interior room as a Focus?

 

Or the Focus has as much interior room as the 1995 contour?

 

or the focus has ~ as much interior room as the 5 series BMW?

 

What are you sacrificing?

 

if people wanted practicality they would buy a minivan.

 

I beg your pardon. I had thought the selection of vehicles for comparison (cheap 2-boxes) as well as the general familiarity of the board with the ONLY compact Lincoln concept shown to date was sufficient.

 

So we are supposed to infer you are taking about the MKc without you ever mentioning it?

 

to Clarify lincoln should not have a compact Sedan, CUv or anything else period in your opinion.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Biker16

[RichardJensen]

the focus has ~ as much interior room as the 5 series BMW?

The 5-Series is a $45k car with a 230hp base engine.

 

Are you suggesting that Ford pursue that strategy as well?

 

Why are you continuing to refer to BMW?

 

Lincoln is NOT BMW.

What are you sacrificing?

Did you just mention the Contour? Did you just mention the biggest failure of Ford in its entire history? A car that was a failure on not just one but five of the six inhabited continents?

 

If that doesn't tell you what you are sacrificing by 'upgrading' to a smaller car.........

So we are supposed to infer you are taking about the MKc without you ever mentioning it?

If you bothered to read subsequent posts, you'd see that I mentioned the Concept C almost immediately

to Clarify lincoln should not have a compact Sedan, CUv or anything else period in your opinion.

ibid.

 

READ MY POSTS.

[NickF1011]

Lincoln won't survive as a brand with Ford unless they can become Fords Luxury brand worldwide Nick where have you been hiding these last few years?

 

I'm sure Lincoln will be rolled out more internationally as time passes...eventually.

 

Lincoln need to make a compact!!

 

I'm sure Lincoln will make a compact....eventually.

 

Do they need one immediately in order to survive? Of course not.

Edited June 28, 2010 by NickF1011

[Ford Jellymoulds]

BMW would LOVE to have Ford's volume efficiencies.

 

When will Ford be doing a V8 stretched Fiesta Continental?

 

Why is Ford bringing the 4-pot Fiesta Stateside if you all drive V6's Richard?

 

Current trend is Americans are downsizing on mass into 4-pot cars.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Ford Jellymoulds

[Ford Jellymoulds]

I'm sure Lincoln will be rolled out more internationally as time passes...eventually.

 

 

 

I'm sure Lincoln will make a compact....eventually.

 

Do they need one immediately in order to survive? Of course not.

 

When Lincoln goes international l will be first to buy one its gotta to have quality BMW Mercedes RWD.

 

If they don't offer a compacts soon they will joining Mercury in the graveyard.

 

Chances of staying with Ford if Lincoln continue making big cars only and they don't wake up just ask Aston Martin, J/LR, Volvo & Mercury what happens.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Ford Jellymoulds

[NickF1011]

When Lincoln goes international l will be first to buy one its gotta to have quality BMW Mercedes RWD.

 

If they don't offer a compacts soon they will joining Mercury in the graveyard.

 

Chances of staying with Ford if Lincoln continue making big cars only and they don't wake up just ask Aston Martin, J/LR, Volvo & Mercury what happens.

 

I feel sorry for all you people in those cramped countries who think the MKZ is a "big car".

[RichardJensen]

I feel sorry for all you people in those cramped countries who think the MKZ is a "big car".

 

Yeah. And *YOU* live in Maryland!

 

FJM, the next time you feel obligated to pontificate on what Americans are doing, look at these pictures and ask yourself if you really know what you're talking about:

 

(Ansel Adams took that picture?)

 

You don't get it.

[NickF1011]

Yeah. And *YOU* live in Maryland!

 

I did live in Nebraska too though, so I do know what open space looks like. :lol: Realistically though, the area of Maryland I live in is more rural than the part of Nebraska I grew up in.

[RichardJensen]

I did live in Nebraska too though, so I do know what open space looks like. :lol: Realistically though, the area of Maryland I live in is more rural than the part of Nebraska I grew up in.

 

And what do you make of the Big Ten thing?

 

IMO the Big East won't outlive its TV contract.

[ausrutherford]

O come now...I wouldnt show that pic of Atlanta, that S-Curve is not a good example of the interstate as a whole.

[akirby]

O come now...I wouldnt show that pic of Atlanta, that S-Curve is not a good example of the interstate as a whole.

 

You're right - way too much space between those cars and they're obviously moving way too fast.............

[BrewfanGRB]

If you think Lincoln will survive with just above 1,000 per model you are living in cloud Cuckkoo Land Richard, how much profit did Lincoln last year? How much does it cost to develop a car with 1,000 sales a month will Ford be able to afford the luxury. Americans in the USA are moving out of the V6 in 4-pots wake up on mass at the moment.

 

 

 

 

 

First of all, it's "en masse". You guys allegedly invented the language (as my stepfather likes to tell it), the least you could do is use it correctly. While I'm at it: What about Germans in the USA? Or Japanese in the USA? Are they also moving out of V6's into 4-cylinders? Or just Americans in the USA? :shades:

 

One last time: People are NOT moving out of anything into 4-cylinders IN THE LUXURY MARKET. And even if they are buying 4-cylinders, it's certainly not en masse. For crying out loud, the poster boy for the case to have Lincoln make a compact (the 3-series) doesn't even OFFER a 4-cylinder (as Nick noted).

Edited June 29, 2010 by BrewfanGRB