7Mary3 Posted January 29, 2011 Share Posted January 29, 2011 The story I am hearing is the Ecoboost/AWD PI is priced out of the market. Many departments still biased against FWD, but some say the Police Explorer will be a surprise big seller. Highway Patrol type departments looking for traditional type partol units said to be eyeing the Caprice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 The story I am hearing is the Ecoboost/AWD PI is priced out of the market. Many departments still biased against FWD, but some say the Police Explorer will be a surprise big seller. Highway Patrol type departments looking for traditional type partol units said to be eyeing the Caprice. AWD would be only for those PDs that feel they really need it and maybe the PI Ute offers better utility at similar price.... The real sleeper could be FWD Taurus, depending on how bad V6 Charger and Impala are seen by various departments, Ford may pick up quite a few sales. all depends on price. Caprice, V8 Charger and EB V6 PI will be in a slug fest, wouldn't surprise me if the whole mess turns into a dutch auction to kill the competition... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt1411 Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 The story I am hearing is the Ecoboost/AWD PI is priced out of the market. Many departments still biased against FWD, but some say the Police Explorer will be a surprise big seller. Highway Patrol type departments looking for traditional type partol units said to be eyeing the Caprice. The Police Interceptor Utility will definitely be a big seller, many believe it will steal the show. Yes the EcoBoost AWD NGPI is more expensive up front but it depends how its sold. I just cant see the elected officials allowing the Police to purchase a vehicle built in Australia with a big V8 6.0L engine and a floor shifter compared to a V6 Ford built in Chicago. No way! The recommendation from most in the know is for Police Agencies to purchase the Interceptors with AWD & the naturally aspirated V6 because the EcoBoost is too much for the average new officer with limited driver training. Dodge has such a bad reputation for service and support along with build quality it will take a few years for them to gain back some customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscalzo Posted January 30, 2011 Author Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) I just cant see the elected officials allowing the Police to purchase a vehicle built in Australia with a big V8 6.0L engine and a floor shifter compared to a V6 Ford built in Chicago. No way! They probably won't. Sales will go toward the Charger or the base level PI. No one is going to pay an additional 5k per unit. The Explorer will fill the AWD needs. The majority of the units will be the base model. If the FWD stands up to the abuse, it will survive. The problem areas of the Charger have been addressed. The majority of the problems were in the front end and that has been redesigned. Agencies can't afford personal so a more expensive police vehicle isn't going to happen at this time. There is no way that I will be paying 25K when a suitable unit is available for 18.5 to 20K. If FMC can produce a new PI in AWD, keep the cost close to the 21.3K as was the old PI and insure the AWD system will stand up to the daily abuse, the could have a winner. But larger urban agencies will have little need for an AWD outside of times like today with snow on the ground. Even then limited ground clearance will make it's use in snow storms of limited value. elected officials allowing the Police to purchase a vehicle built in Australia That will be an issue. it would for me. We had problems just buying cars from a Canadian plant but it wasn't that big of a deal. If production is not eventually moved to the US, it will hurt sales solely on a political level. Edited January 30, 2011 by rscalzo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Cal Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 (edited) I have a couple of brochures I received from Ford while attending an introduction for the Taurus-based PI Sedan last year. In the ones I have, Ford brags that it and the Explorer-based PI Utility will employ the identical drivetrain system (Performance Commonalities) - the 3.5L TiVCT V6 with minimum output at 280 hp, FWD, and available AWD. While attending the Detroit Auto Show last month and the Chicago Auto Show this past weekend, I saw both PIs on display. Next to the PI Utility was a placard that read that the engine in it was a 300 hp 3.7L V6 with AWD standard. The PI Sedan's placard advised that its engine was the 3.5L V6 and it too had AWD standard with FWD optional. In Detroit no one was at Ford at the time to answer any questions. In Chicago, the Ford reps looked at the placards and then mindlessly spewed what they just read without a whole lot of conviction. I was told that FWD was "an option." I asked if that was a delete option and the guy looked at me blankly and then said, "All wheel drive is standard and front wheel drive is optional." Can anyone from Ford confirm any of this? Edited February 14, 2011 by T'Cal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt1411 Posted February 14, 2011 Share Posted February 14, 2011 I have a couple of brochures I received from Ford while attending an introduction for the Taurus-based PI Sedan last year. In the ones I have, Ford brags that it and the Explorer-based PI Utility will employ the identical drivetrain system (Performance Commonalities) - the 3.5L TiVCT V6 with minimum output at 280 hp, FWD, and available AWD. While attending the Detroit Auto Show last month and the Chicago Auto Show this past weekend, I saw both PIs on display. Next to the PI Utility was a placard that read that the engine in it was a 300 hp 3.7L V6 with AWD standard. The PI Sedan's placard advised that its engine was the 3.5L V6 and it too had AWD standard with FWD optional. In Detroit no one was at Ford at the time to answer any questions. In Chicago, the Ford reps looked at the placards and then mindlessly spewed what they just read without a whole lot of conviction. I was told that FWD was "an option." I asked if that was a delete option and the guy looked at me blankly and then said, "All wheel drive is standard and front wheel drive is optional." Can anyone from Ford confirm any of this? TCal I can advise you that some of your questions have not been decided yet. Ford Police Vehicle Team is working closely with their Police Advisory Board (PAB) to fine tune the packages offered to Law Enforcement. Standard engines and drive trains are not 100% set in stone at this point. I can tell you that LASD EVOC drivers who have been working with Ford on these vehicles have suggested the base vehicle be the 3.5L V6 naturally aspirated and AWD. Their opinion as professional driving instructors was that the EcoBoost V6 AWD is for advanced drivers and a lot of power for the average new Patrol officer. The PAB shares this opinion as well and has suggested this combination as a base offering. But the bottom line is Ford will decide how they package the vehicles as a corporate decision after listening to various groups including their PAB. If your passionate about these vehicles go the Ford Fleet Website and email your local PAB member with your thoughts because the PAB members do bring forward other officer concerns to Ford. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 somehow I think if FoMoCo wanted to they could make a system to limit the boost -- maybe 0% - 50% - 100% so one configuration could serve all needs & abilities wonder if that one config would save enough to make it closer to universally affordable for the PD's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Cal Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 TCal I can advise you that some of your questions have not been decided yet. Ford Police Vehicle Team is working closely with their Police Advisory Board (PAB) to fine tune the packages offered to Law Enforcement. Standard engines and drive trains are not 100% set in stone at this point. I can tell you that LASD EVOC drivers who have been working with Ford on these vehicles have suggested the base vehicle be the 3.5L V6 naturally aspirated and AWD. Their opinion as professional driving instructors was that the EcoBoost V6 AWD is for advanced drivers and a lot of power for the average new Patrol officer. The PAB shares this opinion as well and has suggested this combination as a base offering. But the bottom line is Ford will decide how they package the vehicles as a corporate decision after listening to various groups including their PAB. If your passionate about these vehicles go the Ford Fleet Website and email your local PAB member with your thoughts because the PAB members do bring forward other officer concerns to Ford. Thanks! At last year's Chicago Auto Show, before it was announced that the Taurus would be the basis for the next PI, I stopped and talked with a Ford rep. I asked him if he could talk about the next PI and he said he couldn't. I asked if I could give him my take on it and he could respond or not and he agreed. I guessed that the Taurus would be the basis and that the Mustang's new 300+ hp V6 and AWD would be standard. He stated that the next PI would in fact be built in Chicago - the Chicago plant builds Taurus's so that wasn't too hard to figure out. He pointed toward a new SHO and said, "It will be more powerful than that." He said he had heard nothing about AWD as a feature. That threw me off! I began to wonder if Ford would convert the Taurus to RWD and use the 5.0L V8 especially since in Ford's advertising for the CVPI they were bragging about it being RWD and V8 powered. Any way, I'd be happy if they used the 305hp 3.7L V6 and AWD in the Taurus and Explorer. Having the EcoBoost engine as an option is fine but I'll be surprised to see many sold in the Police Interceptors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt1411 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 The story I am hearing is the Ecoboost/AWD PI is priced out of the market. Many departments still biased against FWD, but some say the Police Explorer will be a surprise big seller. Highway Patrol type departments looking for traditional type partol units said to be eyeing the Caprice. I would suggest Highway Patrol type Departments will have nothing to do with the Caprice. Floor shifter, not column?........V8 engine?.....built in Australia? I watched it perform at LASD Car Test day at Pomona Raceway, it was embarrassing to watch it against the Ford and Dodge. Also the Interceptor Utility beat the Tahoe as well. The probable HWY patrol vehicle will be the Interceptor Utility with 3.7L 300HP V6, power with room to store equipment, and handling the same as a the Interceptor sedan. Ford will be doing Ride and Drives with both police vehicles in the next few months, make sure you get a chance to drive both as you will be very surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Cal Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I have to agree about the PI Utility (Explorer). I'll bet it's the sleeper in the group of new squads. Ford introduced it later than the PI Sedan almost as an afterthought or as a secondary lesser option. But, it offers AWD, which the Tahoe does not, and is full pursuit rated with that feature, all at an expected MSRP. I see it as a more direct replacement for the CVPI than the PI Sedan. I'm hoping we get at least some PI Utilitiyies w/AWD for our fleet. Ford was very smart in bringing both it and the PI Sedan out as full pursuit models with available AWD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscalzo Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 I have to agree about the PI Utility (Explorer). I'll bet it's the sleeper in the group of new squads. Ford introduced it later than the PI Sedan almost as an afterthought or as a secondary lesser option. But, it offers AWD, which the Tahoe does not, and is full pursuit rated with that feature, all at an expected MSRP. I see it as a more direct replacement for the CVPI than the PI Sedan. I'm hoping we get at least some PI Utilitiyies w/AWD for our fleet. Ford was very smart in bringing both it and the PI Sedan out as full pursuit models with available AWD. Way too much of a price differential to ever become a direct replacement unless they ca n get them to agencies at 21k per unit. I don't see that happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt1411 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Way too much of a price differential to ever become a direct replacement unless they ca n get them to agencies at 21k per unit. I don't see that happening. Maybe true but remember the new Charger and the new Caprice are all more expensive then their current models as well. Whatever increase you see in the Ford Interceptors will be equivalent to the GM and Chrysler increases. Yes you can probably get a Charger as the cheapest Police vehicle but theres one major difference. The Ford CVPI is currently the only 75MPH Rear crash rated Police vehicle and so will the new Interceptors. Many Police Associations or Unions will NOT agree to putting officers into a less safe vehicle, just think of the vicarious liability when you purchase something that you already know is less safe in a certain impact event. If an officer gets hurt in a rear impact event while using a cheap Charger as the replacement for a CVPI I hope they sue the F$#% out of the Agency who bought based on cheapest bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscalzo Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 (edited) Maybe true but remember the new Charger and the new Caprice are all more expensive then their current models as well. Whatever increase you see in the Ford Interceptors will be equivalent to the GM and Chrysler increases. Yes you can probably get a Charger as the cheapest Police vehicle but theres one major difference. The Ford CVPI is currently the only 75MPH Rear crash rated Police vehicle and so will the new Interceptors. Many Police Associations or Unions will NOT agree to putting officers into a less safe vehicle, just think of the vicarious liability when you purchase something that you already know is less safe in a certain impact event. If an officer gets hurt in a rear impact event while using a cheap Charger as the replacement for a CVPI I hope they sue the F$#% out of the Agency who bought based on cheapest bid. Quite frankly most unions are just trying to maintain status quo and keep personnel on the job. Every city is having major cutbacks. No one in their right mind thinks they will have the ability to demand more expensive vehicles. Getting money for any vehicles is a major effort with state and federal funding gone. Car manufacturers will either have to be competitive of fail. As far as the Chrysler product, it has had problems. but there are a large number on the streets with no apparent crash issues. A association will have no leverage demanding a specific vehicle unless it sells for what the other entries are going for at the time. The Ex will never be more than a specialty vehicle for most departments. There is no way FMC can sell it for a price comparable to the other entries. Many Police Associations or Unions will NOT agree to putting officers into a less safe vehicle, just think of the vicarious liability A few years back they did demand just that. But they were demanding that agencies not buy the VC when we had some high profile incidents. One surviving officer did a tour detailing his incident. Yet little came from it except agencies tried out the Charger. In the end, the union have little say. As far as a law suit, they were filed against Ford. I worked for a law firm handling one such case involving the faulty power steering pumps of early models. Getting an inside look at the workings of the company, I found it somewhat disturbing that a fix for a few dollars per unit was too much to ask. Unfortunately it cost the life of a officer. Edited February 17, 2011 by rscalzo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt1411 Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) Just wanted to provide some factual information so everyone was on the same page. The new Interceptors from Ford Sedan and Utility are coming around the country starting in March with the first one in Atlanta then moving to Texas DPS. You need to contact your Government Account Manager to sign up to drive these at the "Ride and Drives". Officially this is the configuration Sedan Interceptor will be STANDARD AWD with base 3.5L V6 with EcoBoost as an option and FWD also as an option Utility Interceptor will be STANDARD AWD with base 3.7L V6 with NO EcoBoost as an option for Job1. FWD is an option. Edited February 18, 2011 by Sgt1411 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscalzo Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 Just wanted to provide some factual information so everyone was on the same page. The new Interceptors from Ford Sedan and Utility are coming around the country starting in March with the first one in Atlanta then moving to Texas DPS. You need to contact your Government Account Manager to sign up to drive these at the "Ride and Drives". Officially this is the configuration Sedan Interceptor will be STANDARD AWD with base 3.5L V6 with EcoBoost as an option and FWD also as an option Utility Interceptor will be STANDARD AWD with base 3.7L V6 with NO EcoBoost as an option for Job1. FWD is an option. Any idea about fleet pricing? We buy through the NJ State Purchase Bureau and get good pricing plus not bidding requirements. No secret that budgets are beyond tight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt1411 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Any idea about fleet pricing? We buy through the NJ State Purchase Bureau and get good pricing plus not bidding requirements. No secret that budgets are beyond tight. The Police Program Team is aware everyone has to start budgeting very soon so they plan on pricing coming out in the next few months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) Just wanted to provide some factual information so everyone was on the same page. The new Interceptors from Ford Sedan and Utility are coming around the country starting in March with the first one in Atlanta then moving to Texas DPS. You need to contact your Government Account Manager to sign up to drive these at the "Ride and Drives". Officially this is the configuration Sedan Interceptor will be STANDARD AWD with base 3.5L V6 with EcoBoost as an option and FWD also as an option Utility Interceptor will be STANDARD AWD with base 3.7L V6 with NO EcoBoost as an option for Job1. FWD is an option. So the standard vehicles Fords intend selling is AWD 3.5 sedan and AWD 3.7 Utility, Now I can see why Ford were saying that performance/handling should be similar. Good marketing mobe to make FWD and option instead of standard, it removes the FWD emphasis and gets people focused on what types of vehicles they really want to have in their motor pools.. Edited February 20, 2011 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscalzo Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 Good marketing mobe to make FWD and option instead of standard, it removes the FWD emphasis and gets people focused on what types of vehicles they really want to have in their motor pools.. Want and being able to afford are two different issues. Most departments are fighting to maintain minimum manpower and have suffered hiring freezes and layoffs. Coming out with as vehicle in today's climate significantly more than the standard le/fleet unit is a death wish. If the cost is two or three thousand more per unit, even for a department such as mine that's forty thousand per year. Not going to happen. It the Charger was 2k below the CV and comes out even lower than the new PI, it will be the major player. Even at a cost even basic for the FDW units, departments will have to be convinced they will stand up to the abuse. I'm sure we were not to only agency that had major issues with FWD even outside the marked patrol units. As we buy from state contracts direct from fleet dealers, the CVPI was ideal. One unit satisfied everyone. The fleet dealer kept white in stock with some other in the Street Appearance package in various colors. Several hundred units in stock with one stop shopping. Now they will have to keep FWD, AWD in those variations. Not going to be easy or go over well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt1411 Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 If you're buying the Charger I hope your maintenance budget gets a significant increase because you're going to need it. Non existant customer support, two sets of brakes for every set on the CVPI, rattles like a 10 year old vehicle in the first year, and again no 75mph rear crash rating. Ford is well aware that now is not the time to have the most expensive police vehicle on the market because as you said, the take rate will be very low when Agencies are struggling just to keep officers on the payroll. Many are hoping the potential V6 fuel savings will help offset any additional up front costs. The only point that was made by the engineers about the new FWD is that it's not the FWD from years ago. Yes, its still FWD, but torque steer is almost non existent, and repairs are not as costly as FWD repairs of the past. Probably the FWD option will be chosen for Detective emergency vehicle use as apposed to front line Patrol duty. Mark my words, if the Interceptor AWD Utility is priced right, it will take over the entire police Patrol front line market! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Cal Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 (edited) I'm surprized to read that the Utility will have a different engine than the Sedan since Ford has been bragging about "Performance Commonalities" in their early brochures. The AWD/3.7L drivetrain is a good idea for not only the Utility but the Sedan as well. Why not use it in both? Wouldn't it be less complicated to offer only three drivetrains (Both: AWD/3.7L; FWD/3.7L; AWD/EB3.5L) instead of five (Sedan: AWD/3.5L; AWD/EB3.5L; FWD/3.5L. Utility: AWD/3.7L; FWD/3.7L)? Right now, the cheapest police vehicle to own OVERALL is the Tahoe. It has a higher initial cost but its cheaper to maintain, stays in service longer, and retains significantly more of its value in resale. Time will tell if the Utility meets these criteria to make it worth whatever extra cost it demands over the Sedan. What with the Utility being based on the Sedan, though, the cost of R&D had to be way cheaper than what Chevy doled out to certify three distinctly different vehicles - Tahoe, Caprice, and Impala - so the Explorer might not be as expensive as some expect. The cost factor of the EcoBoost, however, will make it rare in these tough economic times. I'd love to know how a fleet manager will be successful at swaying the city council members or trutees to part with an extra $2500 or so per unit just to go fast. In my area, the vast majority of Chargers are V6 powered due to cost and the fact that they are on par with the CVPI V8s in performance. With the much-loved big Ford gone, there may be an argument for the big Caprice, especially from those who loved the '94-'96 Caprice 9C1 even though they share next to nothing. The new one even looks a bit like a sleeker, lowered version of the old one. Edited February 20, 2011 by T'Cal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscalzo Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 I'd love to know how a fleet manager will be successful at swaying the city council members or trutees to part with an extra $2500 or so per unit Good trick if you can do it. We use the V6 version and it has more than enough power for our needs. It has a higher initial cost but its cheaper to maintain, stays in service longer, and retains significantly more of its value in resale. We transfer to another department so resale isn't an issue. Cost differential between the CV and the Tahoe is $3500 per unit 2wd and over $6000 for a AWD. Significant and out of the question for a standard marked unit. Special Service vehicle use is the only way we would consider it. Gas mileage is also significantly less adding to the cost of operation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt1411 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 I'm surprized to read that the Utility will have a different engine than the Sedan since Ford has been bragging about "Performance Commonalities" in their early brochures. The AWD/3.7L drivetrain is a good idea for not only the Utility but the Sedan as well. Why not use it in both? Wouldn't it be less complicated to offer only three drivetrains (Both: AWD/3.7L; FWD/3.7L; AWD/EB3.5L) instead of five (Sedan: AWD/3.5L; AWD/EB3.5L; FWD/3.5L. Utility: AWD/3.7L; FWD/3.7L)? Thats a good question I will find that out for you and advise. Makes good sense to me as well. Simple and consistant is the overall goal. Right now, the cheapest police vehicle to own OVERALL is the Tahoe. It has a higher initial cost but its cheaper to maintain, stays in service longer, and retains significantly more of its value in resale. Time will tell if the Utility meets these criteria to make it worth whatever extra cost it demands over the Sedan. What with the Utility being based on the Sedan, though, the cost of R&D had to be way cheaper than what Chevy doled out to certify three distinctly different vehicles - Tahoe, Caprice, and Impala - so the Explorer might not be as expensive as some expect. We tried to show our Municipal Finance people that cost projection on the Tahoe showing it the cheapest vehicle to operate and they laughed at us. There response was they can make the numbers show any vehicle to be the cheapest. Our Tahoes are 100 % K9 use only because the bean counters and politicians seem to have a rather poor opinion of cops driving around in big SUV's. The cost factor of the EcoBoost, however, will make it rare in these tough economic times. I'd love to know how a fleet manager will be successful at swaying the city council members or trutees to part with an extra $2500 or so per unit just to go fast. In my area, the vast majority of Chargers are V6 powered due to cost and the fact that they are on par with the CVPI V8s in performance. With the much-loved big Ford gone, there may be an argument for the big Caprice, especially from those who loved the '94-'96 Caprice 9C1 even though they share next to nothing. The new one even looks a bit like a sleeker, lowered version of the old one. I'm just surprised more people aren't concerned about the Caprice being built in Australia, thats a showstopper for us, never mind the floorshifter and big V8. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscalzo Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 I'm just surprised more people aren't concerned about the Caprice being built in Australia, thats a showstopper for us, never mind the floorshifter and big V8. It will be a huge issue. We had issues when it was made known that the CV was a Canadian product back in the mid 90's. We had to change some ordinances to allow it. But a product from half way around the world..Not going to happen unless they cut the price thousands below any comparable product. GM is screwing themselves by not bringing production over to the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T'Cal Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 (edited) Good trick if you can do it. We use the V6 version and it has more than enough power for our needs. You're using civilian Tauruses as squads? Or do you mean that you're using V6 powered Chargers? The PI Sedans aren't out till fall, right? Edited February 22, 2011 by T'Cal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rscalzo Posted February 23, 2011 Author Share Posted February 23, 2011 You're using civilian Tauruses as squads? Or do you mean that you're using V6 powered Chargers? The PI Sedans aren't out till fall, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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