Big Old Fords

[156n3rd]

I know the CV (and the TC) will die off soon. I also know that many words have been displayed on this site regarding this subject. But BMW, Mercedes-Benz and even Hyundai are selling RWD's and taking the money. What happens if the Taurus is not bought as a police unit? It has to be proven that it's chassis setup can compete with RWD. And the Towny will also be gone. I do not see a luxury Lincoln product anywhere. The alphabet game that Lincoln is playing with several re-done Fords doesn't cut it. I rented a Mondeo last year. It really felt like a luxurious car. And it was a 6-speed manual turbo-Diesel. What is wrong with Ford, Lincoln and the way cars are sold in this country? Lastly, when I drove limos part time back from 1991-1998, the Towny was always viewed as THE CALSS of the segment. Yeeesh.

[rscalzo]

Ford Retires the Crown Victoria

 

By Jerry Edgerton | Aug 24, 2011

 

 

 

The last of the big cars is retiring.

 

One of the last last exemplars of the bygone big Detroit sedan — and a favorite of police departments and taxi drivers across the country — the Crown Victoria is being put out to pasture by Ford, according to the Detroit Free Press.

 

The Crown Victoria, which was originally introduced in 1983, hasn’t been sold to consumers since 2008; sales have remained strong, however, for the Police Interceptor version.

 

Now, in the face of increased competition for police business from Chevrolet Caprice and Dodge Charger, Ford is introducing new police vehicles based on the Taurus large sedan and Explorer SUV.

 

Police officials appear to be unconvinced about the transition: Police departments have been stockpiling the model while they still could, driving sales up 64% through the first seven months of this year, the Free Press noted.

 

Big and soft-riding, with bench seats and with low gas mileage, the Crown Vic was favored in its consumer years by families, real estate agents and anyone else who wanted to haul passengers in a sedan. But the model’s low gas mileage made it less feasible for Ford as the automaker had to meet tightening federal MPG standards. And as for families who needed to haul kids, SUVs and minivans became more practical alternatives.

 

But for those who owned Crown Victorias over the years — many of them replacing their old ones with new models — it will be missed.

Edited August 24, 2011 by rscalzo

[Topgun]

Ford Retires the Crown Victoria

 

By Jerry Edgerton | Aug 24, 2011

 

 

 

The last of the big cars is retiring.

 

One of the last last exemplars of the bygone big Detroit sedan — and a favorite of police departments and taxi drivers across the country — the Crown Victoria is being put out to pasture by Ford, according to the Detroit Free Press.

 

The Crown Victoria, which was originally introduced in 1983, hasn’t been sold to consumers since 2008; sales have remained strong, however, for the Police Interceptor version.

 

Now, in the face of increased competition for police business from Chevrolet Caprice and Dodge Charger, Ford is introducing new police vehicles based on the Taurus large sedan and Explorer SUV.

 

Police officials appear to be unconvinced about the transition: Police departments have been stockpiling the model while they still could, driving sales up 64% through the first seven months of this year, the Free Press noted.

 

Big and soft-riding, with bench seats and with low gas mileage, the Crown Vic was favored in its consumer years by families, real estate agents and anyone else who wanted to haul passengers in a sedan. But the model’s low gas mileage made it less feasible for Ford as the automaker had to meet tightening federal MPG standards. And as for families who needed to haul kids, SUVs and minivans became more practical alternatives.

 

But for those who owned Crown Victorias over the years — many of them replacing their old ones with new models — it will be missed.

I guess Mulally knows best.

[packardbob]

What is the difference in gas mileage between my Marauder and the standard CV, GM, TC? I got 27.7 mpg between here and Grand Island Nebraska on my way to St. Thomas to take a tour of the assembly plant and the worst I've gotten cruising in town is 21. I hear people complain about the fuel economy of the Panther and blame it as the reason the platform will be retired, but I just don't see it with mine. Are the DOHC and SOHC engines that different?

 

Tonight on Top Gear a 1994 Crown Vic with 422,000 miles on it won the $500 used car challenge. The contest was between it, a Ford Festiva, and I think a 1989 Mercedes E series.

Edited August 29, 2011 by packardbob

[hee haw]

What is the difference in gas mileage between my Marauder and the standard CV, GM, TC? I got 27.7 mpg between here and Grand Island Nebraska on my way to St. Thomas to take a tour of the assembly plant and the worst I've gotten cruising in town is 21. I hear people complain about the fuel economy of the Panther and blame it as the reason the platform will be retired, but I just don't see it with mine. Are the DOHC and SOHC engines that different?

 

Tonight on Top Gear a 1994 Crown Vic with 422,000 miles on it won the $500 used car challenge. The contest was between it, a Ford Festiva, and I think a 1989 Mercedes E series.

 

 

I agree the bad gas mileage is an overblown myth. I very seldom get less than 28 MPG from a tank. Longest trip taken was to Atlanta GA when car was new, we ran from next door from STAP to Port Huron, crossed border and went through MI, OH. and well into KY on tank of gas, next tank took us into Atlanta.You will not find a more cost controlling group than taxi companies and they love this car. A total lack of sales effort killed this car.

[rscalzo]

I agree the bad gas mileage is an overblown myth. I very seldom get less than 28 MPG from a tank. Longest trip taken was to Atlanta GA when car was new, we ran from next door from STAP to Port Huron, crossed border and went through MI, OH. and well into KY on tank of gas, next tank took us into Atlanta.You will not find a more cost controlling group than taxi companies and they love this car. A total lack of sales effort killed this car.

 

 

Highway mileage is totally useless for fleet service. City mileage is dismal compared to the newer technologies. Even a two mile per gallon savings will more than equal a savings in excess of the cost of the vehicle. In large fleets that means a savings of a mid six figure number. The old technology is dead.

[Bored of Pisteon]

Highway mileage is totally useless for fleet service. City mileage is dismal compared to the newer technologies. Even a two mile per gallon savings will more than equal a savings in excess of the cost of the vehicle. In large fleets that means a savings of a mid six figure number. The old technology is dead.

 

The old technology is dead on the fleet/ city mileage point. But I can still pull 27 to 30 mpgs out of a 430,000 mile Town Car... The only thing dead is people's brains because the car has the established history of safety, room and gas mileage that fits my needs. And you can still buy a used C.V./GMQ/T.C. at a good price depending on what it is.

 

Build junk cars and sell 'em. That's the auto industry in 2011. Sell them 40 mpg vehicles you can't even work on yourself and prepare to grab your ankles when you shell out all that cash/credit...to pay for the repairs.

Edited August 31, 2011 by Bored of Pisteon

[rscalzo]

[

But I can still pull 27 to 30 mpgs out of a 430,000 mile Town Car...

 

As long as you don't leave the open highway with a steady speed and no traffic. I ran a fleet of thirty of them. In an urban setting, they rarely got more than 15 mpg. So a new vehicle getting 18 mph in town saves over 10k per unit. That's why the old model is going. The motor can just about eqwual the v^m model of our newer Chargers.

 

You run one unit in a scenario not even close to most fleet users. There is no similarity at all.

 

Even better, this week with parts of the town flooded due to the recent events with Irene, the CV can not go anywhere near the high water. We lost a few cars when the location down low of the air intake sucked up water into the engine.

Edited September 1, 2011 by rscalzo

[Bob Rosadini]

[

 

As long as you don't leave the open highway with a steady speed and no traffic. I ran a fleet of thirty of them. In an urban setting, they rarely got more than 15 mpg. So a new vehicle getting 18 mph in town saves over 10k per unit. That's why the old model is going. The motor can just about eqwual the v^m model of our newer Chargers.

 

You run one unit in a scenario not even close to most fleet users. There is no similarity at all.

 

Even better, this week with parts of the town flooded due to the recent events with Irene, the CV can not go anywhere near the high water. We lost a few cars when the location down low of the air intake sucked up water into the engine.

OK- now for some reality on YOUR part- your 15 mpg was in police service-and what percentage of that time were they idling??????? Very high I'm sure.

Oh and a knock on the CV because it doesn't have a snorkel??? what PV CAN take high water??

[rscalzo]

OK- now for some reality on YOUR part- your 15 mpg was in police service-and what percentage of that time were they idling??????? Very high I'm sure.

Oh and a knock on the CV because it doesn't have a snorkel??? what PV CAN take high water??

 

 

what PV CAN take high water

The Chargers got through the twoo feet of water just fine. A foot of water with a vehicle passing causing a wave shuts down the CV engine. In two cases, destroying them.

 

 

This is reality. Ford's major purchaser of the CV was LE. So what the relatively minor portion of non commercial users get from the vehicle is immaterial. Gas mileage is piss poor in urban operations. when gas was cheap, it wasn't an issue. When budgets were fat, it wasn't an issue. As far as their ability to operate in higher than normal water conditions, that's also piss poor planning. when a emergency vehicle can't get through water higher than a foot or so, it becomes useless in the conditions seen during the last week in the town. The charger has no problem in those conditions yet Ford for years never corrected the problem. Ford continued to produce the same vehicle for year after year, taking the profits with little upgrades in return. In 2011 Ford was using the same basic engine first installed in 1992 ending at 250hp. With the exception of some suspension and frame changes in 03. the change to rack and pinion was made after Ford lost a multi million dollar law suit of under preforming power steering systems.

 

the time for the car is long past and Ford knows it was going to be able to keep uop sales. In 2011, they were down to less than 50 percent of the market and sinking fast with only one valid competitor. If for nothing else, the cost of operating the charger is a significant saving over the CV.

[Bob Rosadini]

The Chargers got through the twoo feet of water just fine. A foot of water with a vehicle passing causing a wave shuts down the CV engine. In two cases, destroying them.

 

 

This is reality. Ford's major purchaser of the CV was LE. So what the relatively minor portion of non commercial users get from the vehicle is immaterial. Gas mileage is piss poor in urban operations. when gas was cheap, it wasn't an issue. When budgets were fat, it wasn't an issue. As far as their ability to operate in higher than normal water conditions, that's also piss poor planning. when a emergency vehicle can't get through water higher than a foot or so, it becomes useless in the conditions seen during the last week in the town. The charger has no problem in those conditions yet Ford for years never corrected the problem. Ford continued to produce the same vehicle for year after year, taking the profits with little upgrades in return. In 2011 Ford was using the same basic engine first installed in 1992 ending at 250hp. With the exception of some suspension and frame changes in 03. the change to rack and pinion was made after Ford lost a multi million dollar law suit of under preforming power steering systems.

 

the time for the car is long past and Ford knows it was going to be able to keep uop sales. In 2011, they were down to less than 50 percent of the market and sinking fast with only one valid competitor. If for nothing else, the cost of operating the charger is a significant saving over the CV.

Really? A Charger can handle two feet of water and a Ford can't do a foot-if you say so- and what is the difference that makes the Charger TWICE as capable as a CV? Please elaborate. And a Charger is cheaper to run than a CV? Now I know by your avatar that you are a LEO fleet administrator in Secaucus NJ and you must have hard documentation to support that, but it seems that everyone I talk to who has first hand experience has one four letter word for the Charger-it begins with "J".

 

On another note, we know that government will drastically alter the Taxi market, but IF it hadn't, do you think we would see an influx of Chargers in the cab business after they finish their police service?? I don't think so.

 

You attack Ford for not investing in the Panther over the years- no argument there-many, myself included would agree with that. But that doesn't diminish the toughness of the vehicle-in particular when compared with the competition.

 

Last question- Ford has less than 50% of the market? If that is the case it sure as hell must be happening in other parts of the country because I don't see it in the Northeast. About a month ago I drove through the lot of MHQ in Marlboro MA. They handle most of the municipal business in this part of New England. I would say the CV's outnumbered the Chargers awaiting delivery by 10 to 1. Show me the numbers.

[rscalzo]

what is the difference that makes the Charger TWICE as capable as a CV

 

Because the air intake isn't mounted down low under the front bumper. A wave in a one foot or so flooded area will take out the CV. Chrysler mounted the air intake up higher.

 

we know that government will drastically alter the Taxi market, but IF it hadn't, do you think we would see an influx of Chargers in the cab business

 

The government never altered the taxi industry. The Charger is not a popular taxi vehicle. Minivans have taken over that spot in the cities.

 

The Charger came vastly warranty than the CV. While it certainly wasn't without it's problems, that was in the earlier years. Latly the chargerr is holding up as well as the CV The CV had more than it';s share. Manifolds would last a matter of weeks in the early years. Interiors fell apart after several months of hard use. Then there was the well known power steering pump issue. Whatever vehicused used, the environmentroment is tough. But anyone who ever drove one would change back to the old Caprice 9C1. The only reason Ford gained as much as they did was the fact GM dropped that vehicle from it's line when sales would not support a fleet only vehicle. The Caprice ran circles around anything on the road in the fleet areas.

 

As far as cars on the lot, a drive through Winner or Warnock in NJ will find a large number on the lot. Dealers bought up a large number before the line shut down. Yet the NJ state contract was extended into 2112 because the dealer still has unsold units in stock. As far as the New England area, the Charger is very common. The CV will still be purchased to avoid the requirement to purchased supplimentry equipment not transferable from the CV to the Charger. But the charger is a much more economic vehicle to operate in the urban area using the V-6 that can match the proformance of the old 4.6ltr. motor. A fleet of 20 units can mean a savings of 4 to 500K in fuel over a year. Not insignificant money.

 

The ratios will chance as the Caprice and new Ford come on line and the CV are retired when they build up mileage.

[T'Cal]

I had an '03 Marauder that I got in the middle of MY '05 with 11K miles on the clock. It ran wonderfully but I consistently got in the 16 MPG range in an even mix of city/suburban/highway driving. The roar of the pipes was so intoxicating that I would accelerate just to hear them. I'm sure that didn't help but even when I drove very calmly, I was still in the 16 MPG range, high 16s but nothing better. I bought it just as gas prices spiked and it burned premium but it was worth the extra cost.

[Bored of Pisteon]

I had an '03 Marauder that I got in the middle of MY '05 with 11K miles on the clock. It ran wonderfully but I consistently got in the 16 MPG range in an even mix of city/suburban/highway driving. The roar of the pipes was so intoxicating that I would accelerate just to hear them. I'm sure that didn't help but even when I drove very calmly, I was still in the 16 MPG range, high 16s but nothing better. I bought it just as gas prices spiked and it burned premium but it was worth the extra cost.

 

That's a problem right there. Putting premium gas in will make it get less mileage. So much for the octane boost? The only time I ever ran premium in any vehicle I ever owned was with one that had a carburetor on it or the gas was getting old and needed an octane boost so it doesn't turn into varnish!

[T'Cal]

That's a problem right there. Putting premium gas in will make it get less mileage. So much for the octane boost? The only time I ever ran premium in any vehicle I ever owned was with one that had a carburetor on it or the gas was getting old and needed an octane boost so it doesn't turn into varnish!

 

This vehicle required premium - it wasn't merely recommended. "PREMIUM FUEL ONLY" was imprinted on the fuel/temp gauge face. When fuel prices skyrocketed, I tried mid-grade but performance was down noticeably and I even heard very mild pinging, which wasn't worth 12 cents a gallon. It ran flawlessly on premium but it was a big car. I had it two years and never took it on a long trip where I might have broken 20 mpg but it was rated at 18/23 and that was with heavy 18" rims and 3.55 gears. What made this difficult for me was I had traded an '02 Monte Carlo SS for it and that thing got phenomenal mileage on regular gas. Stepping up to the Marauder meant premium fuel for the bigger engine in a heavier car, which resulted in lower fuel economy. I expected that, but it was the huge jump in price at the pumps that made it even worse. Still, what a great car! It combined the best attributes of a performance sedan, a luxury car, and a safe family vehicle. And, as I said, the pipes were intoxicating. I miss it a lot.

Edited September 13, 2011 by T'Cal

[packardbob]

If I recall correctly, St. Thomas Assembly ends production this Friday.

 

I've only put non-premium fuel in my car once, but I got away with it I guess. The only thing I notices was a little worse fuel mileage but no pinging. Perhaps the altitude here helps out with that, our premium is 91, midgrade is 87 and lowest is 85 octane.

[Topgun]

If I recall correctly, St. Thomas Assembly ends production this Friday.

 

I've only put non-premium fuel in my car once, but I got away with it I guess. The only thing I notices was a little worse fuel mileage but no pinging. Perhaps the altitude here helps out with that, our premium is 91, midgrade is 87 and lowest is 85 octane.

400 Crown Vics left to build.

[packardbob]

400 Crown Vics left to build.

 

Last June I took a tour of St. Thomas Assembly with the guys from CV.net. We knew being that close to closing that getting a tour was going to be difficult, so we really appreciated it. I hope they take a few more pictures of the last Crown Vic and Town Car than they did of the last Grand Marquis.

[rscalzo]

Last June I took a tour of St. Thomas Assembly with the guys from CV.net. We knew being that close to closing that getting a tour was going to be difficult, so we really appreciated it. I hope they take a few more pictures of the last Crown Vic and Town Car than they did of the last Grand Marquis.

 

 

I'm sure they will do something tocommemoratee the last one built.

[akirby]

When they closed the Ford Hapeville plant that built the fleet Taurus, they ran one final Taurus down the line and it went to Truett Cathy - founder of Chick-Fil-A. The original Chick-Fil-A restaurant was near the plant and the workers ate there a lot. So he bought the last one and put it on display. Nice......

[packardbob]

I hope Ford gives it to The Henry Ford Museum to put it on display as the last Full Size Ford that has its roots from the original Model A. Body on frame, RWD... I heard there was also some interest from LAPD to buy it and put it on display. I hope that doesn't happen as I would like to see the car in person some day but don't really care to go to California to see it. Either way, I hope it is something special and not end up getting sold as a fleet sale like the last Grand Marquis.

[hee haw]

I hope Ford gives it to The Henry Ford Museum to put it on display as the last Full Size Ford that has its roots from the original Model A. Body on frame, RWD... I heard there was also some interest from LAPD to buy it and put it on display. I hope that doesn't happen as I would like to see the car in person some day but don't really care to go to California to see it. Either way, I hope it is something special and not end up getting sold as a fleet sale like the last Grand Marquis.

 

 

No it will go to Sahab the Arab, they got to get the last $$$$

[Topgun]

I'm sure they will do something tocommemoratee the last one built.

They did nothing, just a lot of pics and videos from employees only....no press allowed in the plant.

[rscalzo]

Surprised. they could have done a old generation, new generation event.

[Bob Rosadini]

They did nothing, just a lot of pics and videos from employees only....no press allowed in the plant.

Dumb move on Ford's part. Scalzo's suggestion is a good one- I have seen just about every news channel I watch including the Networks and Fox giving the story coverage. What a lost opportunity..."our old car was the vehicle of choice-our new one will be too"