Ford Seeks to Make Lincoln a Glamour Car Again

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

Nobody disagrees - in fact there was a Global RWD program underway when the financial crisis hit and it had to be cancelled. Right now it's a matter of where Ford spends the money and they have a lot better things to spend money on than a low volume dedicated RWD flagship.

 

It is an interesting enigma for Ford/Lincoln. They produced nearly bumpkiss for desirable cars for about 15 years. Most of u,s who had needs beyond what a Mustang could fill, were happy to go to Expeditions, SuperCrews and Explorers. Gas is now higher and lots of us just plain miss driving a desirable, not insipid and overly pervasive, car. Fusions and Tauri are okay, fleet devices, but kind-of, bleh. Tarting one of these up with electronic bells and whistles,and sticking on Lincoln badges, still makes for a car that is, bleh.

 

The customers who want something more than, bleh, in a Ford product are pretty good customers with some money and security. Keeping them is going to take some investment, losing them is going to be costly over time as they buy future vehicles for spouses, children and themselves. Getting some of us back from the competitors has a positive, similar pay-back.

[NickF1011]

Then how do you explain the strong selling FWD/AWD SRX that consistently out sells CTS?

 

 

Ford does its Trucks and utilities extremely well and reaps the benefit for it which is why I don't understand Lincoln

prioritizing sedans ahead of getting versions of Mercury Mariner, Aviator and a refreshed Navigator with V6 EB.

To me, attracting potential Lincoln customers into SUVs and CUVs would be far easier and more lucrative to boot.

 

Well, I think the priorities are going toward fixing what is already in the lineup as opposed to simply adding to the pile of mediocrity.

[2b2]

...Once the new brand is established and profitable they can go after the smaller volume more expensive models.

...but soon

 

...I don't think all Lincolns need to be RWD, but having a mid-size coupe and sedan, and a large sedan with RWD format would seem to lend credibility to the brand.

bascially

I'm starting to think of this as

• a pair of 'performance-sized' luxury cars: near-3series-sized sportsedan & coupecabrio, Mustang co-platform

• a pair of 'luxury-sized' plush flagships with no lack of performance: closer to S-class than CLS, formal sedan & super sleek "4-door-coupe", Falcon co-platform(GRwdP)((tho a single, fairly-swoopy Continental might be enough))

Edited December 12, 2011 by 2b2

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

...but soon

 

bascially

I'm starting to think of this as

• a pair of 'performance-sized' luxury cars: near-3series-sized sportsedan & coupecabrio, Mustang co-platform

• a pair of 'luxury-sized' plush flagships with no lack of performance: closer to S-class than CLS, formal sedan & super sleek "4-door-coupe", Falcon co-platform(GRwdP)((tho a single, fairly-swoopy Continental might be enough))

 

I completely agree. These sell and anchor the higher profit per unit FWD/AWD vehicles. BMW is the number one selling Luxury brand in the world. They aren't worried about Acura creeping up on them. Yes, Lincoln should sell every CUV that it can make. The problem is, who is going to pay more for an MKT or MK"Aviator-whatever-the-heck-the-letter-is" if the brand doesn't carry some cachet. You can already get those same basic vehicles from Ford with leather and lots of luxury options. The X5 and X3 are much truer to luxury vehicles and they would sell much less without being backed by the reputation of the 3-5-7 series. You just can't up-sell a brand-name that has done nothing to earn any prestige.

[Edstock]

Nearly, or all FWD/V6's have a compromised weight distribution. Adding AWD doesn't change this, or adequately polish the proverbial, uh, banana slug. IIRC, the AWD AUDI banana slugs worked so well in SCCA racing they received weight penalties, plus most WRC sleds have that kind of lay-out, so it seems that it can be made to work quite well. Then there is torque steer....and there is RevoKnuckle/Torsen, have you read about the 300hp RS Focus?. I dream of something like the BMW X-Drive on one Lincoln model. Don't limit yourself, X-Drive is a good system, but nothing to be in thrall about. Offering this on the Mustang and a mid-sized Ford four-door coupe (hardtop) would help with volume.

 

I don't think all Lincolns need to be RWD, but having a mid-size coupe and sedan, and a large sedan with RWD format would seem to lend credibility to the brand.

[papilgee4evaeva]

It hasn't though. Its buyers are marginally younger than Lincoln buyers, and while it certainly garners more press and internet-love than the MKZ, the decision to abandon Sigma and move it to Zeta suggest that it's not a paying proposition for GM.

Alpha, you mean. Zeta's not long for this world, being an older and less flexible platform, whereas Alpha's gonna underpin ATS, CTS, Camaro, and possibly something else.

 

Then how do you explain the strong selling FWD/AWD SRX that consistently out sells CTS?

Lower starting MSRP.

Same reason the Lexus ES has been their top seller even though everything else in the lineup is decidedly better.

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

The Original Audi Quattro configuration, which tore up the SCCA and Rally competitions was very different, more complex and costly to manufacture than what is used today. It was full-time with rear and center differentials. In no-way is this apples to apples comparison to a modern Lincoln.

[RichardJensen]

Fulltime AWD is a waste of gas.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Fulltime AWD is a waste of gas.

New Audi S8 - more efficient (19/28) than the Fusion Sport and every current Taurus. And with obligatory Quattro.

 

As long as they find ways to mitigate fuel efficiency losses while keeping fulltime AWD, they will.

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

Fulltime AWD is a waste of gas.

 

Very true about the gas use, but you can't compare the performance characteristics of a full-time, rear-wheel biased system like the original Quattro with a slip activated AWD, which decides for itself when and how much (little) it should play the game. The first generation Quattro's differentials could be manually disengaged, but when in, they were as full-time 4WD as a truck with locking hubs. I've driven the Ford AWD system and found it to be really unpredictable on slick mountain passes. If you let up on the gas to negate slip, your torque mostly or all goes back to the front wheels. The parallel torque system of Subaru is pretty good, but the American AWD systems are not that big of a deal on slick, steeper pavement, unless you like in-out-in-out-in a lot-in a little-out.

[RichardJensen]

New Audi S8 - more efficient (19/28) than the Fusion Sport and every current Taurus. And with obligatory Quattro.

 

As long as they find ways to mitigate fuel efficiency losses while keeping fulltime AWD, they will.

I can't find that rating anywhere, and it's certainly not on the EPA website.

 

This is what I found:

 

Audi says the 2013 S8 achieves fuel economy ratings of 16 mpg city and 24 mpg highway.

http://www.prlog.org/11717961-2013-audi-s8-one-car-for-all.html

[papilgee4evaeva]

I can't find that rating anywhere, and it's certainly not on the EPA website.

 

This is what I found:

 

 

http://www.prlog.org/11717961-2013-audi-s8-one-car-for-all.html

I pulled from here:

http://www.autoblog.com/2011/11/22/2012-audi-s8-first-drive-review/

 

In the box at the top of the article with the quick specs... and they repeat it within the body.

[RichardJensen]

Those figures are slightly better than the conventional A8 (18/28). I don't believe them and have no idea where AutoBlog got them---or the model year of the vehicle (there is no 2012 S8).

[stpatrick90]

Very true about the gas use, but you can't compare the performance characteristics of a full-time, rear-wheel biased system like the original Quattro with a slip activated AWD, which decides for itself when and how much (little) it should play the game. The first generation Quattro's differentials could be manually disengaged, but when in, they were as full-time 4WD as a truck with locking hubs. I've driven the Ford AWD system and found it to be really unpredictable on slick mountain passes. If you let up on the gas to negate slip, your torque mostly or all goes back to the front wheels. The parallel torque system of Subaru is pretty good, but the American AWD systems are not that big of a deal on slick, steeper pavement, unless you like in-out-in-out-in a lot-in a little-out.

 

I have never had any issues with the AWD in my MKS, nor did I ever have any issues with the Sable AWD I had. My driveway is quite long and winds up the side of a hill and I live in a quite snowy area so I have great experience in testing AWD systems you could say. My MKS is every bit as capable as my S6 with snow tires in climbing up my drive, in some cases I actually think the MKS does a better job because it has greater ground clearance.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Those figures are slightly better than the conventional A8 (18/28). I don't believe them and have no idea where AutoBlog got them---or the model year of the vehicle (there is no 2012 S8).

Looking back at the numbers I posted and then you posted, my best guess is that they used imperial gallons without knowing it.

 

Why they would be given MPG_imp in a German car is a bit beyond me, though.

Edited December 12, 2011 by papilgee4evaeva

[RichardJensen]

Or they used the EU's urban & exurban numbers.

[papilgee4evaeva]

Or they used the EU's urban & exurban numbers.

Also possible.

 

Either way, 16/23 (ish) is pretty good for a full-time AWD 520-hp vehicle that ways 4400 lbs.

[Boss444]

The CTS seems to be the main reason for Cadillac's resurgence. It made the whole brand relevant again.

 

Very true. The CTS was the vehicle that put Cadillac back on the map. And I agree, there should be a balance of RWD/AWD/FWD vehicles in a lineup. Can't hurt.

 

The thing is though, you can't just expect a manufacturer to introduce a RWD vehicle and expect it to sell like wild fire. You have to support it with proper advertising/updates/etc.

 

The G8 was an amazing car, and it was an amazing value. But due to old GM's ineptness...it was never supported, advertised, etc. It's still better than most sedans on the road today. But the manufacturer let it die.

 

RWD certainly isn't a savior...but giving customers a choice isn't all bad either.

[RichardJensen]

The CTS was the vehicle that put Cadillac back on the map.

If by 'map' you mean talked about endlessly by people that don't own one, yes.

 

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

 

The G8 was an amazing car, and it was an amazing value. But due to old GM's ineptness...it was never supported, advertised, etc. It's still better than most sedans on the road today. But the manufacturer let it die.

 

RWD certainly isn't a savior...but giving customers a choice isn't all bad either.

 

Well stated, I walked through a multi-brand dealership which still had a G8 on the floor a few weeks after production ended. It sat near a new CTS and was surrounded by new Pontiacs, Honda's, Nissans, Lincolns and Mercurys. A couple of nearly new BMW's sat about 100 feet away in the same room. You had to add about 20 grand to the G8's price to get to a car that was clearly going to be a nicer driving experience. But few consumers in the showroom likely had any idea that it was any more of a car than just a renamed Grand Prix.

 

The shame is that Lincoln did about the same with the LS. It was a pretty good car, but the styling wasn't inspired and the marketing wasn't good. It was too large to bring in serious drivers from the imports and too small to appeal to traditional Lincoln customers. It is easier to write-off RWD's because of these mistakes than to admit that the attempts were fatally-flawed from the start. So was the 500, but the earlier Taurus was a hit along with the contemporary Camrys and Accords.

[RichardJensen]

Here's the thing about 'writing off RWDs because of these mistakes':

 

When so many people get the formula wrong, it becomes a question of whether the formula can be done right consistently.

 

And, to forestall the inevitable reference to BMW, the two brands that have most slavishly aped BMW--Cadillac and Infiniti--have not mounted a serious challenge to BMW. Infiniti's all RWD products seldom outsell FWD/AWD counterparts from Lincoln and Cadillac's most successful product of late is the FWD/AWD SRX.

[BORG]

Very true. The CTS was the vehicle that put Cadillac back on the map. And I agree, there should be a balance of RWD/AWD/FWD vehicles in a lineup. Can't hurt.

 

The thing is though, you can't just expect a manufacturer to introduce a RWD vehicle and expect it to sell like wild fire. You have to support it with proper advertising/updates/etc.

 

The G8 was an amazing car, and it was an amazing value. But due to old GM's ineptness...it was never supported, advertised, etc. It's still better than most sedans on the road today. But the manufacturer let it die.

 

RWD certainly isn't a savior...but giving customers a choice isn't all bad either.

 

What's amazing about a RWD sedan without AWD or ANY tech innovations to speak of? I can't think of a car less amazing than the G8! What's amazing is that GM thought they could sell a large featureless family sedan here as a BMW and get away with it. Yeah, it's amazing what "amazing" will do to a company.

Edited December 13, 2011 by BORG

[RichardJensen]

Basically, what it amounts to is this:

 

If you want to succeed with RWD, you pretty much have to be BMW or Mercedes. You try to sell 'just like BMW' type products and you'll get those who 'want a BMW but....' with the 'but' being 'but BMWs cost too much' or 'but I want a domestic car.'

 

Essentially, people who don't buy BMWs but want BMW type dynamics are settling for lesser vehicles and they know it.

 

If you think Ford should be in the business of selling poor man's BMWs............

[TBirdStangSkyliner]

Basically, what it amounts to is this:

 

If you want to succeed with RWD, you pretty much have to be BMW or Mercedes. You try to sell 'just like BMW' type products and you'll get those who 'want a BMW but....' with the 'but' being 'but BMWs cost too much' or 'but I want a domestic car.'

 

Essentially, people who don't buy BMWs but want BMW type dynamics are settling for lesser vehicles and they know it.

 

If you think Ford should be in the business of selling poor man's BMWs............

 

 

We disagree, but this is a good discussion, and I respect your point of view. The 300 is supposedly one of Chrysler's most profitable models. I also think that there is lots of white-space for a poor-man's or a lesser expensive BMW or Mercedes. Even with the recent Euro issues, importing these to the USA and into dollars, still adds a lot to the cost without giving any value to the consumer. Only a few models are made in the USA, and even then, the parent company has to get their profits out. BMW's also feature a lot of high-end materials and technology that marginally adds performance, but at a very high cost. Magnesium engine blocks are just one such example. I think it will be hard to restore Lincoln and write-off all of the RWD luxury car buyers who buy BMW's, Mercedes, the CTS, the RWD Infinitis, the RWD Lexi, Jaguars and whatever else I've missed. There are also the near luxury buyers in the 300's and those driving around suburban areas in full-sized, luxury SUV's, while waiting for the right car to call them-back. One of my neighbors traded his Navigator for a CTS last year. I don't know how many of these wayward SUV people are out there, but they certainly exist. Most of these luxo-SUV's don't go hunting or off-road, not even in Montana. Many don't haul several kids and didn't replace mini-vans.

[hbalek]

We disagree, but this is a good discussion, and I respect your point of view. The 300 is supposedly one of Chrysler's most profitable models. I also think that there is lots of white-space for a poor-man's or a lesser expensive BMW or Mercedes. Even with the recent Euro issues, importing these to the USA and into dollars, still adds a lot to the cost without giving any value to the consumer. Only a few models are made in the USA, and even then, the parent company has to get their profits out. BMW's also feature a lot of high-end materials and technology that marginally adds performance, but at a very high cost. Magnesium engine blocks are just one such example. I think it will be hard to restore Lincoln and write-off all of the RWD luxury car buyers who buy BMW's, Mercedes, the CTS, the RWD Infinitis, the RWD Lexi, Jaguars and whatever else I've missed. There are also the near luxury buyers in the 300's and those driving around suburban areas in full-sized, luxury SUV's, while waiting for the right car to call them-back. One of my neighbors traded his Navigator for a CTS last year. I don't know how many of these wayward SUV people are out there, but they certainly exist. Most of these luxo-SUV's don't go hunting or off-road, not even in Montana. Many don't haul several kids and didn't replace mini-vans.

 

Ditto, my coworker traded in his rear-drive/4wd Infiniti SUV for an AWD CTS, choosing that over Lincoln sedans and Taurus SHO, among others. For the record, I traded in a rear-drive Infiniti G35 after 8 years for a new Lincoln. After a year of ownership, I still LOVE my AWD MKZ!!!

Edited December 13, 2011 by hbalek