7Mary3 Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Medium duty sales figures are in for January-December 2011, published by Ward's Auto. I think the results are a little surprising. Dodge (or 'Ram' if you want to call it that) is still holding first place in class 3-7 sales, with 103,716 total. This compares to Ford's 99,316 total units. What makes it a bit of a surprise to me is Dodge competes in class 3-5 only, while Ford is active in 3-7 (I believe Ford's class 6 and 7 sales were somewhere around 8,400 units for the year). I thought that Ford would retake the lead as the 6.7L Powerstroke proves itself (and I believe it has). Of the 'Big 3', GM is a distant 3rd., with 34,883 sales. Of course, GM is only in class 3 at the present time, though many believe they will be back in 4 and 5 in the not too distant future. International's class 3-7 sales were 37,001 units, an increase of 15% over 2010. That was another surprise. I was expecting to see a larger increase as International is now formally in class 4 and 5 with their new TerraStar line. Must not be selling all that hot I guess...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packardbob Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 It seems understandable to me, we can't get a bid on a Ford around here, the competition keeps getting the lowest bid. We have Ford guys having to drive Dodge and Chevy trucks since we have to go with lowest responsible bid and it is never Ford. Is Ford not wanting to sell at a competitive price or are dealerships pricing themselves out of competition? I sure would like to know, these trucks we're getting don't seem to hold up under abuse as well as a Ford, or in Chevys case they don't hold up at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted March 14, 2012 Author Share Posted March 14, 2012 It seems understandable to me, we can't get a bid on a Ford around here, the competition keeps getting the lowest bid. We have Ford guys having to drive Dodge and Chevy trucks since we have to go with lowest responsible bid and it is never Ford. Is Ford not wanting to sell at a competitive price or are dealerships pricing themselves out of competition? I sure would like to know, these trucks we're getting don't seem to hold up under abuse as well as a Ford, or in Chevys case they don't hold up at all. Around here, Ford is VERY competitive price-wise in class 3-7. All the municipalities are predominately Ford in class 3-5, and I see quite a few 6's and 7's in their fleets as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 Around here, Ford is VERY competitive price-wise in class 3-7. All the municipalities are predominately Ford in class 3-5, and I see quite a few 6's and 7's in their fleets as well. For what its worth, on the Tractorbynet website, there has been a lot of discussion on one of the truck threads on this subject. Keep in mind we are talking primarily pick ups but the consensus is that Ford and Tundra dealers won't deal. Dodge and GM on the other hand will. I have to believe that Dodge's success is still a carryover from Ford's black eye with the old Powerstrokes. Until the 6.7 proves itself, I would bet the Cummins powered Dodge will continue to make inroads. And Like I've said before-lets hope the Dodge-excuse me- Ram- marketing guys don't wake up to the fact that...."our engine is so good, its the only diesel Ford uses in its class 6 and 7 trucks"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 And Like I've said before-lets hope the Dodge-excuse me- Ram- marketing guys don't wake up to the fact that...."our engine is so good, its the only diesel Ford uses in its class 6 and 7 trucks"! Good thing it's a 3rd party supplied engine from Cummins, not Chrysler or Ram or Dodge or Plymouth, even. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lfeg Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 One big thing is pricing. The Dodge dealers went into the market (class 3 - 5) with very agressive pricing to break into it a few years ago, and they have kept up with the agressive pricing. And to many, pricing is a big part of the decision. Plus the Cummins is a known quantity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 14, 2012 Share Posted March 14, 2012 One big thing is pricing. The Dodge dealers went into the market (class 3 - 5) with very agressive pricing to break into it a few years ago, and they have kept up with the agressive pricing. And to many, pricing is a big part of the decision. Plus the Cummins is a known quantity. Amen! Edstock- do you disagree with my point on the 650/750? Not sure I got your drift Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 (edited) Amen! Edstock- do you disagree with my point on the 650/750? Not sure I got your drift I think his point is that Dodge can't advertise the fact that Ford is also using the Cummins without (unintentionally) underscoring the fact that they, unlike Ford, are using someone else's powertrains in the vehicles that compete head-to-head with Ford. Edited March 15, 2012 by SoonerLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 I think his point is that Dodge can't advertise the fact that Ford is also using the Cummins without (unintentionally) underscoring the fact that they, unlike Ford, are using someone else's powertrains in the vehicles that compete head-to-head with Ford. Precisely. If it's a good idea, offer CAT diesels too. Apparently the Allison automatic is gaining more and more market share. I wonder why Getrag or B-W haven't tried a H-D version of the twin-clutch manual transmissions that have been used in smaller EU commercial vehicles. A 10-speed with a lock-up torque converter and wet clutches would probably suffice and probably be cheaper than the Allison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Precisely. If it's a good idea, offer CAT diesels too. Apparently the Allison automatic is gaining more and more market share. I wonder why Getrag or B-W haven't tried a H-D version of the twin-clutch manual transmissions that have been used in smaller EU commercial vehicles. A 10-speed with a lock-up torque converter and wet clutches would probably suffice and probably be cheaper than the Allison. DUH! Edstock, SoonerLS- get your point, hadn't thought of it that way. Sad fact though- Do I wish all the mis information about Ford owning Cummins was true? Yes- we wouldn't be digging out of this hole right now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted March 15, 2012 Share Posted March 15, 2012 Apparently the Allison automatic is gaining more and more market share. I wonder why Getrag or B-W haven't tried a H-D version of the twin-clutch manual transmissions that have been used in smaller EU commercial vehicles. A 10-speed with a lock-up torque converter and wet clutches would probably suffice and probably be cheaper than the Allison. I don't think you understand dual clutch transmissions. Either you have 2 clutches OR you have a torque converter. Torque converters have the big advantage of multiplying torque when there is a a difference in input and output speeds of the torque converter. DCTs make up for this lack of torque multiplication by having extra gears. Adding extra gears adds weight and cost. DCTs have to take special care in the control logic not to cause excessive heat/clutch wear when launching vehicles with extreme loads (start form full stop, up hill, max load). Torque convertors just make heat in this case and with a good cooler rarely overheat the fluid. DCT can quickly overheat their fluid and damage the clutches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted March 23, 2012 Author Share Posted March 23, 2012 January sales for the F-650 and 750, according to Ward's Auto News, is 418 units. Hino beat Ford in class 6, but only by 58 trucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 24, 2012 Share Posted March 24, 2012 January sales for the F-650 and 750, according to Ward's Auto News, is 418 units. Hino beat Ford in class 6, but only by 58 trucks. The fact that they outsold Ford is significant regardless of the number. If I had to guess, I would bet the bulk of those sales were to Penske Leasing. I do believe Roger has a piece of the action with respect to the Hino distribution business. Regardless, I have yet to hear anyone report any significant problems with these trucks. Check out their website. Its obvious they have put a lot of effort into it. On the down side, it appears they are really forcing the customer into a "rapid spec"-minimal options- no manual transmissions, no 2 speed rears. Let's hope Ford is paying attention to these guys. PS 7M3-How about it-what do you hear from your peer group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7Mary3 Posted March 25, 2012 Author Share Posted March 25, 2012 The fact that they outsold Ford is significant regardless of the number. If I had to guess, I would bet the bulk of those sales were to Penske Leasing. I do believe Roger has a piece of the action with respect to the Hino distribution business. Regardless, I have yet to hear anyone report any significant problems with these trucks. Check out their website. Its obvious they have put a lot of effort into it. On the down side, it appears they are really forcing the customer into a "rapid spec"-minimal options- no manual transmissions, no 2 speed rears. Let's hope Ford is paying attention to these guys. PS 7M3-How about it-what do you hear from your peer group. It's funny, a couple of years ago when Hino introduced their conventionals we all heard that Hino was going to work very closely with upfitters and assist them in supplying 'turn-key' medium trucks, including vocational types. I took it to mean Hino would have flexible spec's.. Can't say I have seen it happen that way, at least not yet. Maybe Hino was going to try to get the upfitters to conform to their trucks, not the other way around! About all the Hino's I see are simple box vans and platroms. Roll-back car carriers too. Not exactly tough applications to spec. for. Makes you wonder about what Ford is going to come out with, doesn't it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Rosadini Posted March 26, 2012 Share Posted March 26, 2012 It's funny, a couple of years ago when Hino introduced their conventionals we all heard that Hino was going to work very closely with upfitters and assist them in supplying 'turn-key' medium trucks, including vocational types. I took it to mean Hino would have flexible spec's.. Can't say I have seen it happen that way, at least not yet. Maybe Hino was going to try to get the upfitters to conform to their trucks, not the other way around! About all the Hino's I see are simple box vans and platroms. Roll-back car carriers too. Not exactly tough applications to spec. for. Makes you wonder about what Ford is going to come out with, doesn't it? Pretty much the same thing here in New England. Given the fact for all practical purposes we are down to two full service leasing companies-Ryder and Penske, and given fact Penske has some sort an interest in the Hino deal, many delivery trucks-vans, reefers etc are Hinos. And same deal on roll backs. large distributor is located one town over from me and they stock quite a few trucks. Hino's are frequently in the mix although surprisingly there are also a good number of Petes-I guess with some of these guys money is not the issue. Also, as heating oil is big here in NoEast, interesting that Hino has formed an alliance with a major tank supplier. (see Hino web site). Ford OWNED that segment (33,000lb, 2800 gal tank) in the old days with C-8000's and then LN-8000's Now its F'line, Int. Pete, etc. Even though the 750 meets the spec, I think the cab issue hurts them. Plus as always--NO MARKETING. The industry trade rags always have ads from F'liner for example-have NEVER seen a Ford ad. And again, a segment they owned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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