RichardJensen Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) One thing seems certain: additional production is not going to be moving into western Europe any time soon. Edited August 12, 2012 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 (edited) The Ford response is a diplomatic way of saying that "we know we should close a plant but can't, because of the politics involved, so we're forced to drop back to plan B." If this was the U.S., either Genk or Southampton would be gone. Sorry to disagree, if Ford was closing plants they would come out and say so. Ford Europe doesn't have that many plants. There's no quick way to transfer Mondeo, S-Max and Galaxy production and supplier parks without incurring huge cost. One thing seems certain: additional production is not going to be moving into western Europe any time soon. Agree, the answer is to immediately right size production at existing plants and then wait and see if the EU's proposal for eliminating import tariffs happens, the plan is to drive down vehicle prices by allowing imports more market access at competitive prices.. If that happens, Ford could consider importing some vehicles from Eastern Europe or other places further afield, like Asia.. Edited August 12, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 Sorry to disagree, if Ford was closing plants they would come out and say so. Ford Europe doesn't have that many plants. There's no quick way to transfer Mondeo, S-Max and Galaxy production and supplier parks without incurring huge cost. Agree, the answer is to immediately right size production at existing plants and then wait and see if the EU's proposal for eliminating import tariffs happens, the plan is to drive down vehicle prices by allowing imports more market access at competitive prices.. If that happens, Ford could consider importing some vehicles from Eastern Europe or other places further afield, like Asia.. B-Max sales are starting...built in Romania. and the Ranger is built in either South Africa or Thailand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 (edited) B-Max sales are starting...built in Romania. and the Ranger is built in either South Africa or Thailand. South Africa supplies Europe - an example of FAPA supplying Ford Europe St Petersburg builds Mondeo for Russia, would there be opportunity to expand this plant? Edited August 13, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 South Africa supplies Europe - an example of FAPA supplying Ford Europe St Petersburg builds Mondeo for Russia, would there be opportunity to expand this plant? I think get kits from Gent... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2b2 Posted August 13, 2012 Share Posted August 13, 2012 doesn't St. Pete make the non-Titanium Focii for Russia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Ford wouldn't build a new plant to run at less than full capacity but an existing, mature and amortized asset is a different situation I will disagree with you on that statement. Especially when those plants probably attract funding from respective European governments to remain open.German plants are going to dedicated Fiesta and Focus production while the derivatives are going to Valencia. I am not familiar with what products are built at what plant overseas. I do believe the permanent closure of any plant overseas will have a lot to do with union contracts and "life long employment" government rules, both very difficult to work around. Controlling production and staff at Genk and Southampton as the most likely outcomes for now. Cutting a shift, where union contracts would force Ford to continue to pay a portion of the laid of workers salary, is like putting a band aid on an arterial bleed. When you're losing 1 billion dollars/year in Europe, you gotta do something. ABSOLUTELY ! Any action Ford takes that is not considered by Wall Street to be "decisive" will impact Ford's current bond rating. The reason that Ford came out of "junk bond" status was decisive actions that result in dramatic cost reductions in the US. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 How would you close South Hampton without losing extensive British sales? Some how, I think British plumbers will manage to get by with Spanish Transit vans. Ford hasn't assembled any passenger car in UK in nearly a decade and it has managed to retain sales leadership... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bzcat Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 South Africa supplies Europe - an example of FAPA supplying Ford Europe St Petersburg builds Mondeo for Russia, would there be opportunity to expand this plant? Cars imported from Russia to EU is subject to tariff so it's not a pratical solution and I'm pretty sure the current Mondeo line in St Petersburg is CKD or at least partical KD so that means Gent has to remain open. Even if you source the CKD parts form somewhere else (e.g. Michigan or Mexico), you'll have to deal with the stigma of selling a Russian made car in places like Germany and UK, which can be a challenge. Ford is a volume player and it needs a real production site in the EU zone. Or at the very least, a country that enjoys favoriate tariff situation with EU (e.g. South Africa). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) Are there any mfrs. out there dumb enough to buy a plant from Ford in this messy environment? You know, figuring they're going to take over Europe.... Edited August 14, 2012 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Are there any mfrs. out there dumb enough to buy a plant from Ford in this messy environment? You know, figuring they're going to take over Europe.... BMW was looking to by NEDCAR, but the deal went to VDL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Some how, I think British plumbers will manage to get by with Spanish Transit vans. Ford hasn't assembled any passenger car in UK in nearly a decade and it has managed to retain sales leadership... Ford builds the full size Transit in UK. The UK plant supplies alot of western Europe Transit volume. Ending it could hurt its sales for many in western Europe might have a prblem with a Turkish made commercial vehicle on this level and there might not be enough capacity to meet demand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 Cars imported from Russia to EU is subject to tariff so it's not a pratical solution and I'm pretty sure the current Mondeo line in St Petersburg is CKD or at least partical KD so that means Gent has to remain open. Even if you source the CKD parts form somewhere else (e.g. Michigan or Mexico), you'll have to deal with the stigma of selling a Russian made car in places like Germany and UK, which can be a challenge. Ford is a volume player and it needs a real production site in the EU zone. Or at the very least, a country that enjoys favoriate tariff situation with EU (e.g. South Africa). EU is talking about eliminating tariffs to reduce the cost of cars to consumers by increasing competition,if that proposal gets up, it will be cat amongst the pigeons stuff in Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) I will disagree with you on that statement. That's your prerogative, but Ford won't be closing any plants in Europe this year. I am not familiar with what products are built at what plant overseas. There's not that many plants, Valencia, Spain - C-max Kuga, sole EU source for the Transit connect ( Valencia is a Two line plant) Cologne, Germany - Fiesta and Euro Fusion, Saarlouis, Germany - Focus Craiova, Romania - 2012 B-Max, likely next gen fiesta over flow production moved from Spain. St. Petersburg, Russia - Focus, Mondeo Kocaeli, Turkey - Transit HD and transit Custom LD, Genk, Belgium - Ford Mondeo, Ford S-MAX, Ford Galaxy Southampton, UK - Transit HD I do believe the permanent closure of any plant overseas will have a lot to do with union contracts and "life long employment" government rules, both very difficult to work around. Governments and Unions in Europe are beginning to accept that over capacity is a real problem and redundncies are needed. Trying to close plants might be a tougher nut to crack, that's when you need mass redundnacy payouts and up to date pension plans.. Cutting a shift, where union contracts would force Ford to continue to pay a portion of the laid of workers salary, is like putting a band aid on an arterial bleed. No, outside of the US, cutting a shift = termination of employees or relocating them to other plants.. Edited August 14, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pioneer Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 No, outside of the US, cutting a shift = termination of employees or relocating them to other plants.. News flash: thats how its been in the US since 2009. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) News flash: thats how its been in the US since 2009. Exactly and everywhere else long before that. Edited August 14, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) That's your prerogative, but Ford won't be closing any plants in Europe this year. I agree with you. Not this year ! No, outside of the US, cutting a shift = termination of employees or relocating them to other plants.. Well, that is a lot better than keeping them on a call back list indefinitely. I don't think Ford has hired and lower tier (pay) workers in the US, and there is still a surplus of skilled labor. If you don't believe your sales volume is going to come back soon, and no one is predicting the EU economy is going to come "rocketing back" next year, then you will be running some plants under their break even point and loosing money. What plants have had recent major update or major new product added ? Those will likely stay around. Plants scheduled for an update or new product that has not happened yet, are more likely to shut down. Edited August 14, 2012 by theoldwizard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) Cutting Euro plants now would be a logistics nightmare but cutting shifts and terminating those employees is achievable right away. Closing plants is more a long term plan where as getting production volumes and staff levels under control right now is priority one, Edited August 14, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted August 14, 2012 Share Posted August 14, 2012 (edited) What plants have had recent major update or major new product added ? Those will likely stay around. Plants scheduled for an update or new product that has not happened yet, are more likely to shut down. The only ones I see on the bump are Genk and Southampton, Genk updates of Mondeo have been delayed until around September next year Could be the twelve months Ford needs to shift EUCD production to another plant or to right size the existing Genk plant? If the EU pushes ahead with tariff elimination as a means of increasing competition, then all bets are off....... maybe this is why Ford is delaying any plant closure until the EU resolves tariff question, this will be a huge factor in Ford's near future planning. Edited August 14, 2012 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted August 17, 2012 Share Posted August 17, 2012 A little side step in this topic. The CAW contract us up for negotiation. Oakville, Ontario is the home of the Flex, MkT and Edge. None of them are setting sales records. Discontinuing those vehicles and closing that plat would save millions ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ausrutherford Posted August 19, 2012 Share Posted August 19, 2012 A little side step in this topic. The CAW contract us up for negotiation. Oakville, Ontario is the home of the Flex, MkT and Edge. None of them are setting sales records. Discontinuing those vehicles and closing that plat would save millions ! I hope thats sarcasm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 19, 2012 Author Share Posted August 19, 2012 The CAW contract us up for negotiation. Oakville, Ontario is the home of the Flex, MkT and Edge. None of them are setting sales records. Discontinuing those vehicles and closing that plat would save millions ! WTF? The Edge is still one of the best selling mid-sized CUV in the market, if not the best selling one... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theoldwizard Posted August 21, 2012 Share Posted August 21, 2012 I hope thats sarcasm. No. Just harsh reality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
littlebell Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 i work in Dagenham and I heard today from one of the lads on the shop floor that there will be a "big announcement about Genk" to be made next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted August 23, 2012 Share Posted August 23, 2012 (edited) No. Just harsh reality. What the barking eff are you barking about? "Let's cancel 200k units (1% of the NA market) of high ATP product and close a plant!" Edited August 23, 2012 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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