Ford Hybrids' Fuel Economy Failing To Live Up To EPA Ratings?

[DarkeRetribution]

Here is an interesting article talking about the Topic Title of this thread.

 

http://www.greencarr...-to-epa-ratings

 

Now people have all suggested that this car has a break in period of random numbers of miles. Some people say 5,000 others say 6,000..some say 500..who really knows. It could be that the fact that these are new vehicles that haven't had the thousands of miles put on them yet so aren't delivering 47 combined yet or anything close to it. It may also be that Ford has created a vehicle that works perfectly in tight testing situations the EPA uses for all vehicles in general just to get a MPG so high knowing in real world terms this car would not get anywhere near that. Who knows..

 

What I do find interesting is anyone who gets a brand new Prius gets MPG of at least the EPA rating of 50pmg...most people seem to get 55-60pmg and to me that's phenomenal. That's so much more over the EPA's rating and the 50MPG EPA rating is great in itself. So I decided to look at the real world mileage of other new hybrids in America as well to see if Ford's new Fusion hybrid (i pre ordered the titanium hybrid myself) needs to be forgiven because it's so new or if it needs to be watched carefully as it will be unlikely to live up to its ratings. Next on the list was a brand new Prius V rated at 44/40 and drivers seem to be getting anywhere from 43 to 50mpg...again...extraordinary... Next up the Toyota Camry Hybrid rated at 43/39. Hundreds of drivers have gotten anywhere from 38 to 51...not bad. Next up the Honda Civic Hybrid rated at 44/44 (lets get away from the Toyotathon going on) and real world numbers seem to be high 30s which are pissing a lot of people off, but the low 40s is what a lot of reports have been reporting and that's not that bad in the real world..

 

All in all, I wouldn't say I'm worried at this point...but I would say I'm concerned. An EPA rating of 47mpg and no one seems to be able to achieve near that makes me wonder how the EPA got those numbers? Real world tests have all shown low 40s the highest...high 30s (37+) the norm...and who is to say what the "break-in" period is for this car as others don't seem to really need one. From the looks of things hybrid technology is still at the top of Toyota's game and Honda, like so many others are just trying to keep up....but then out of nowhere Ford pulls off some unbelievable magic..making a car heavier and longer than the competition with numbers that soar up into the heavens... I'll admit when I first heard it was going to get 47mpg combined I thought that was pure magic..I just hope it's as good on the street as it is in the EPA's test labs.

 

Granted...It's been known the EPA inflates numbers for hybrids. In fact it has been reported these numbers are inflated by as much as 20%!! Now...at 20% inflation that would make the fusion hybrid's actual MPG not 47 but 37.6 ...and ironically that is exactly what people have been reporting in the 2013 fusion hybrid right now..numbers in the 37's generally. But that's 10MPG less than the EPA rating...which is HUGE as the 47 is what is selling these hybrids like hotcakes. I doubt 37mpg would make the hybrid look any more special than the gas models. But if I went by this...how is it that most other hybrids are within 5% of their EPA rating? How is it that other hybrids are surpassing their EPA ratings right out the door by up to 10MPG? If this 20% was applied to the Prius it would get a real world mileage of 40MPG but people can easily get 55-60. The Civic Hybrid would get 35.2MPG but people are easily getting at least 40.

 

I just think it's strange and without jumping to conclusions I will only say we need to keep an eye on more hybrids around here...not just the titanium trim in general...especially since many of the titanium trims on this forum are the hybrids now.. myford touch and phone compatibility and rear lights and style are all fine..but the reason we are getting the hybrid is because of the numbers and if the numbers don't match up we'll all have a problem and it wont have anything to do with your trunk being misaligned by a millimeter or you not getting the 19-inch rims you dream of. Rims won't mean anything if you're filling up as much as the gas car next to you and you have to keep pulling out your wallet for a car you thought you'd rarely have to fill up in principle. So keep a watchful eye out for anything you can find on hybrid fusion MPG because it should be on all of our lists of things to make sure is acceptable if you're getting the hybrid.

Edited November 20, 2012 by DarkeRetribution

[dbmstng]

Wow, way to ramble on... Lol

 

I'm guessing it is at least partially that Toyota hybrid owners have probably had hybrids previously whereas the Fusion would attract the non typical hybrid driver. Driver style probably has something to do with it. Are Fusion hybrid owners reporting how the care is grading their driving style along with their mpg?

[akirby]

Granted...It's been known the EPA inflates numbers for hybrids. In fact it has been reported these numbers are inflated by as much as 20%!!

 

There you go making stuff up again. Please provide a source for this "fact".

 

The EPA test is the EPA test. It is virtually impossible to design a car so that it does well on the EPA test but not in real world driving. Anything you would do to help the EPA test would also help real world mpg.

 

Prius buyers buy them for mpg so they're going to drive them for max mpg and most probably hypermile.

 

It is concerning if a lot of buyers are not getting the advertised mpg but geez - you're dealing with a brand new vehicle and a very very small sample size in comparison. And you know nothing about how these drivers are driving these vehicles. If you're not driving for maximum fuel economy then you won't see 47 mpg no matter what.

 

Don't forget it's cold in the North and that will kill fuel economy. So ALL 2013 Fusion hybrid reports are coming from cold weather whereas the others have at least an entire year to average out.

 

It's way too early to speculate. Wait until next summer at least.

[marjen]

I am having similar issues with my titanium (non hybrid). I am about 1000 miles in and averaging about 19 miles a gallon so far. WAYYYY below the posted numbers. Hyundai just got killed in the media for not living up to their numbers and had to refund customers money, interested to see other peoples results as more people get the car.

[akirby]

No, Hyundai got killed because their testing was flawed and didn't match the EPA standards. Not because owners got different real world results.

 

What vehicle did you have before (specifically - make/model/engine/transmission) and what type of mileage did you get?

[scott029]

I am having similar issues with my titanium (non hybrid). I am about 1000 miles in and averaging about 19 miles a gallon so far. WAYYYY below the posted numbers. Hyundai just got killed in the media for not living up to their numbers and had to refund customers money, interested to see other peoples results as more people get the car.

 

Did you get this mileage by doing the math (gallons used/miles driven)? Did you reset the ave. MPG guage. I think we went thru this before and you never answered any questions.

You said before almost all of your driving is in the city so 19 MPG could be possible with a new car and alot of stop & go driving. Geez, the EPA city MPS's are only 22, give it some time!!

[Zoomzoom5]

I agree with akirby that we need to give it a lot more time before we bring the jury in on this. Most cars, and especially hybrids, can loose several mpg's in colder climates. I usually lose 3-5 mpgs average during the winter months in my gasoline only car. Also, if you're buying a hybrid, not that I have any large data to back this up, but usually the hybrids are built a bit more carefully and require some redunancies to ensure quality and longevity. I'm no expert, but I have talked to many a hybrid owner due to my profession, and most are very pleased with the mpg's and reliability he or she is getting. Side note, it's fun to watch the new guys to try and get a Prius or Fusion hybrid engine to start to check it after the oil has been changed. They look at me and ask, "it won't start? I have it on." My response, "Tep on the gas tupid!"

Edited November 20, 2012 by Zoomzoom5

[chuckokie36]

Remember the Hybrid CITY mpg is as good or better than the HIGHWAY mileage of the smallest most efficient gas sedans around.

There is also a learning curve to getting good mileage with any car, especially a hybrid.

 

For years we have all been spoiled with much more power than we all need, and cheap fuel to go along with it, those days are coming to and end.

The Prius is a great car for around town and short trips, but is no long distance road car.

I get between 34 and 45 mpg in my Prius depending on how it is driven, the newer models do 5 mpg or so better

 

If mileage is your only concern go with the Prius. I speak from experience I have 2007 Prius Touring

Edited November 20, 2012 by chuckokie36

[jeff_h]

I'm anxious to get mine to see the results, as I have 90% highway but the 10% that is city lends itself well to going on EV... and I also log every single fill-up on a spreadsheet with miles/gallons, so I can get true numbers and also see how they compare against what the MPG on the dash reads.

[elle]

I've never gotten anywhere near the EPA mileage in my Prius, unless I am very, very mindful of how I am driving. Driving a hybrid for mileage is a different experience than driving a regular gas engine for mileage-- completely different. I am not at all surprised that new hybrid owners are not getting EPA mileage in their cars. They'll get closer, eventually, as they learn what it takes to get there.

[FusionHybrid2013]

I'm around a 43.5 mpg average on the first 1500 miles on my car. It's my first hybrid and I think i will be able to average 47 mpg in summer when the weather warms up and I drive a little more efficiently. I don't know how some of these reviewers drive, but even when I am in a hurry and driving inefficiently, I'm still getting about 40mpg. Is it possible that the engines themselves just aren't that consistent with mpg and some are better than others?

[elle]

Disclaimer: Didn't read the reviews.

 

One thing about driving a hybrid is that the mileage stated on the display will vary dramatically over short trips, and will begin to approach a more realistic average the more miles you add to the trip. If someone resets the mileage tracker then takes a hybrid around the block and comes back with a mileage "average" of 25mpg, that's not unusual. They could also come back from such a short trip with mileage of 80mpg. It just depends on the driving conditions for that short trip.

[coreytime]

I am getting 38.0mpg and i have around 550 miles on my car. Today for some reason i noticed a huge difference on my commute home from work. I averaged 44.5 MPG where I normally get around 37...... I definitely believe there is a break in period.

[DarkeRetribution]

I am getting 38.0mpg and i have around 550 miles on my car. Today for some reason i noticed a huge difference on my commute home from work. I averaged 44.5 MPG where I normally get around 37...... I definitely believe there is a break in period.

That's great to hear! ..exactly what i want to hear too..i could care less the speculations from non 2013 fusion hybrid owners but hearing what you said is inspiring for me to say the least..hopefully it wasnt some strange anomaly and you'll continue to get that.

[raleel]

I don't understand the physical or mechanical reasons for a break in period. And I don't understand why the EPA would get it AFTER the break in period.

 

Anyone care to explain it to a novice?

[chuckokie36]

Here is the 1st 10 fill-ups from my 2007 Prius when it was new.

 

1st tank after delivery ----37.1 mpg. This was in February 2007 in Dallas, Tx ----- notice as the temperature warmed and experience with a hybrid improved the mileage increased.

2nd 43.1

3rd 44.8

4th 45,0

45.6

43.4

46.6

46 45

47.8

48.8 ---June 2007

 

Same will be true for the Fusion Hybrid, as they say "your mileage may vary" depending on your driving and the temperature.

Edited November 21, 2012 by chuckokie36

[lolder]

There is little or no break in period for eCVT hybrids. My 2010 gained 1 mpg. from new to 45 K miles. There is a BIG break-in period for new hybrid drivers. Heading into a colder season when all vehicles get less mileage will tend to delay driving improvements. Cold weather takes more fuel to keep everything and everybody warm. Air is denser and causes more drag. Tires are stiffer. Winds are stonger and because of geometry are headwinds 70 % of the time, not 50 %. Wet and snowy roads have more drag. Here's a link to a hypermiling thread on CleanMPG.com:

http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1510

Many of the techniques listed hybrids do automatically and others are not applicable but there is a wealth of information there.

[DarkeRetribution]

Here is the 1st 10 fill-ups from my 2007 Prius when it was new.

 

1st tank after delivery ----37.1 mpg. This was in February 2007 in Dallas, Tx ----- notice as the temperature warmed and experience with a hybrid improved the mileage increased.

2nd 43.1

3rd 44.8

4th 45,0

45.6

43.4

46.6

46 45

47.8

48.8 ---June 2007

 

Same will be true for the Fusion Hybrid, as they say "your mileage may vary" depending on your driving and the temperature.

 

now that IS interesting too...for you you were doing great right off the bat..and just 4 fill ups until you were within 5mpg of the EPA rating..the Fusion seems to be 10mpg under epa estimates even after hundreds of miles have been put on the vehicle...and even so in cold temperatures you werent that bad...the automagazines had this car in september and october people..far from winter and not that cold..if anything its the transition periods of spring and fall that are the most you'll be driving in through any year in not winter or summer alone so if you get good estimates in sping or fall you're pretty well set for summer anyway..and it looks like you did. Also..cold weather shouldnt drastically drop mpg by that much in the first place..even in winter you were doing great.

 

i still have my suspicions on Fords hybrid technology in the 2013 premiere fusion and the EPA estimates now that real facts are coming in from real drivers. i have no doubt the car can get in the low 40s...maybe even reach 47 under optimal conditions or in the dead of summer surpass it lol. NEED MORE INFO

[DarkeRetribution]

There is little or no break in period for eCVT hybrids. My 2010 gained 1 mpg. from new to 45 K miles. There is a BIG break-in period for new hybrid drivers. Heading into a colder season when all vehicles get less mileage will tend to delay driving improvements. Cold weather takes more fuel to keep everything and everybody warm. Air is denser and causes more drag. Tires are stiffer. Winds are stonger and because of geometry are headwinds 70 % of the time, not 50 %. Wet and snowy roads have more drag. Here's a link to a hypermiling thread on CleanMPG.com:

http://www.cleanmpg....read.php?t=1510

Many of the techniques listed hybrids do automatically and others are not applicable but there is a wealth of information there.

Interesting..then the ford fusion hybrid should be at 47mpg right off the bat...i find it hard to believe over 100 professional car review companies can't drive a hybrid correctly... and with the millions of prius owners on the road...many of them now with a 2013 fusion hybrid..i'd think they would know how to drive a hybrid to so the argument "THE NUMBERS ARE LOW CAUSE PEOPLE DONT KNOW HOW TO DRIVE HYBRIDS" is just a dumb assumption to make..honestly..If the car isnt showing numbers you like don't assume the person driving the car doesn't know how to drive a car..hybrids arent new and many people have driven them before...this isnt the first hybrid in america and it certainly isn't fords first hybrid so lets get those arguments out the door as this car gives you plenty of training techniques while driving so its SAFER to assume anyone driving a 2013 fusion hybrid IS driving correctly and TRYING to maximize mpg...unless they're blind or so confident in their driving abilities they turned off all hybrid training screens that were on by default.

 

Nonetheless, with your argument it proves something may be up with the numbers as well if break in period isnt a worry.

[fordmantpw]

Also..cold weather shouldnt drastically drop mpg by that much in the first place..

 

Bull! Cold weather makes batteries take a huge hit, gas engines are less efficient in cold, you run the heater more, etc.

 

On the flip side, the dead of summer is a huge hit running the A/C all the time too.

 

...even in winter you were doing great.

 

That was winter...in Dallas. Dallas doesn't have winter.

[lolder]

Most of the car testers are gearheads and even hate automatic transmissions. Their reviews for earlier Ford and Toyota hybrids rarely hit the EPA numbers. Ford hybrids are more sensitive to driving style than Toyota due to the higher power/weight ratio. Also, the Li-Ion battery is more powerful and encourages more EV operation. That is not necessarilly a good thing. EV should not be used when the ICE is more efficient. There are more losses in the EV cycle. There were only about 200K Ford hybrids sold since 2004 and only 70K were the FFH-MilanH-MKZH. The Fueleconomy.gov site show 38.7 mpg for the 56 FFH 2010-12 models listed vs. the EPA 39.

If you drive a Ford hybrid like a regular car you will probably not get the EPA mileage. If you drove a Toyota hybrid before, that is no assurance you will get EPA numbers with a Ford hybrid. I am sure Ford sqeezed every drop out of the EPA testing regime.

If you may say you should be able to drive a hybrid "normally" for it's benefits to accrue, I can't argue against that but it isn't true for the Ford's. If your driving style changes, you can beat the EPA numbers.

If Ford has fudged the numbers, the EPA will find out soon. Hyundai and Kia HAD fudged the numbers ( "human error" ).

I guess my main point is new Ford hybrid owners entering the winter will have a hard time meeting the EPA numbers. Spring should tell the tale.

Edited November 21, 2012 by lolder

[fordmantpw]

If Ford has fudged the numbers, the EPA will find out soon.

 

My guess...Ford had their numbers certified by the EPA and didn't just use their own tests. The numbers went up so much, my money is on Ford playing it safe and having the EPA certify the numbers, even though it isn't required.

[elle]

Interesting..then the ford fusion hybrid should be at 47mpg right off the bat..

 

 

What part of "BIG break-in period" was it that eluded you? You're way too suspicious.

 

Some people start off with their hybrids hypermiling because they are really into the idea of getting great mileage. They pay attention to the feedback the car gives them and learn to drive their car smartly very quickly.

 

Many of us (myself included) don't want to pay so much attention to the mileage feedback while we drive, and as a result, it takes longer for us to get used to how the hybrid drives in terms of MPG and how to get the most from it.

 

The point was made that many people writing reviews are not going to be hypermiling and are going to report the numbers they get during the test drive having driven the car normally (not like a hybrid and not really utilizing the feedback the car gives you). As a hybrid owner, this makes total sense to me.

Edited November 21, 2012 by elle

[jsellar]

Whether there is a break-in period or not, the early results should not be this far off from the EPA testing. I think we can all agree that there are way too many variables (weather, drivers, new cars, etc) to declare anything definitive. With the early results being this far off, it is interesting nonetheless.

[DarkeRetribution]

Whether there is a break-in period or not, the early results should not be this far off from the EPA testing. I think we can all agree that there are way too many variables (weather, drivers, new cars, etc) to declare anything definitive. With the early results being this far off, it is interesting nonetheless.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I brought this up just as an interesting point to look out for BEFORE most of us make our final purchases...i mean everyones looking at all these other senseless things to me and i just thought we should keep an eye out on actual mileage people are getting on the hybrid and start a thread to get real feedback from people who bought the hybrid or actually know how to drive one...but all i am hearing are men and women biting my head off for even being suspicious in the first place like this is the all-holy god car and Ford or the EPA would NEVER be wrong about anything anything about this car. Just because you're purchasing something you like doesn't mean you have to delude yourself into thinking its perfect. You haven't even driven it yet...but people HAVE...thousands have...im talking to those people not any of you without the car yet..so if you have a problem with me asking 2013 fusion hybrid owners to state their real world knowledge and mpg then get out of this thread and move on if this topic doesn't interest you. Edited November 21, 2012 by DarkeRetribution