Europe To Get "SVO Like" Turbocharged 2.3 Litre 4 Cylinder Mustang

[jpd80]

As in the past I-4 Turbo Mustang owners were clearly a different group of buyers to the traditional V6 and V8 buyers.

Heck, anything that attracts the younger generation back to Mustang as an alternative to Asian I-4 Turbo sports cars has to be a good thing.

 

Actually, i keep wondering with a much lighter F150 and a 2.3 I-4 Ecoboost, with over 300 lb ft whether Ford would

add that to the 2015 F150 as an alternative to the 3.7 V6, with more bottom end torque, it has to be on their minds...

270 hp and 300 odd lb ft sounds like a a 4.6 2V engine equivalent...not too shabby indeed.

Edited March 9, 2013 by jpd80

[Kris Kolman]

This is not anything new or surprising... I suspect we'll see the same corporate plan as seen in Fusion, Escape, F-150, and even the Falcon

 

- 4-cylinder EcoBoost - Base Model

- 6-cylinder EcoBoost - Volume Model

- 5.0L V8 Classic

- 8-cylinder EcoBoost - Monster

[Biker16]

- No. It's still a Mustang and it will still be "compromised" to meet a price point.

 

the current cars solid Axle and cheap American interiors were major factors the mustang dismissal by reviewers int he EU. The High CO2 emission by the V8 and V6 would price out most EU buyers from the car.

 

- Citation needed. I find laughable the idea that Ford would bend over backward for incremental volume in a collapsing market that is notorious for its jingoist tendencies

 

You simply could not greenlight the 2015 mustang program without ROW volume.

 

The idea of investing billions of dollars into a new/almost new platform for only 70,000 unit per year was a problem that the global mustang was going to resolve.

 

Your Xenophobic concepts that the EU will not accept an American mustang A) underestimates ford's sales expectations (LOW) and B) overestimates European market preferences against American cars.

 

Market Collapse is relative.

 

EU sales have fallen from 15.5 mil in 2007 to 12 million in 2012

 

while US sales fell 17 million in 2006 to 11.6 million in 2009 averaging a 30% decrease in 3 years vs a 5% decrease in the EU over the last 5 years.

[RichardJensen]

American

 

I left in the only part of that list you got right.

 

If you think that the European press and public are not generally xenophobic....................... and do not generally have an irrational prejudice against American cars.................................

 

This is a continent where it is still considered acceptable---in multiple venues---to loudly chant racist epithets; where freedom of religion is routinely trampled, where the notion of ethnic and national identity is tied together on a level that would be frightening if expressed in the U.S. Europe has the means and resources to accept as many refugees per year as the U.S. yet they do not, and that is due to the overwhelming tribalism of European culture. There is no other sound reason for Fiat to be the best selling brand in Italy: Their cars are, objectively speaking, terrible. Ditto Renault, Peugeot and Citroen in France. How are all these companies able to maintain footholds in their home countries while being relative laughingstocks elsewhere? Because Europe---beneath its sophisticated veneer---is as tribal as any other part of the world with thousands of years of settlements.

 

You can make any number of valid criticisms about the U.S., from the ludicrous exceptionalism to the constant invocation of God by political leaders, but you cannot accuse this country, culturally, of being opposed to new and different things from different places. Now try that notion out in Europe and see where it gets you.

Edited March 10, 2013 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

I mean, if you think for one moment that BMW buyers are going to buy Mustangs.....

 

These Mustangs will be very nice cars for people that like Mustangs, and they will have almost no appeal to anyone else anywhere else.

 

Arguing that there are some horrible deficiencies in the U.S. Mustang that prevent it from being accepted by 'more discerning' buyers is just ridiculous. That 'discerning taste' is just prejudice in another skin.

 

I guarantee you that nothing, NOTHING, Ford could do with the Mustang will render it acceptable to those who do not like foreign and especially American cars.

 

Give it the ability to lap the ballyhooed 'ring faster than a BMW M3, and it will be picked apart for being too wide, or that its performance is largely due to its tires, or that it is not economical enough, or that it doesn't come with a diesel option, or that its interior is in some indefinable way 'inferior', or that it is too expensive for what you get, or that it's unrefined.

 

I can tell you right now that this Mustang will not conquer any prejudices. It will be a nice option for Mustang fans who--till now--have had to buy very expensive gray-market cars, and that's about it.

Edited March 10, 2013 by RichardJensen

[Kris Kolman]

There is something to what you're saying... The Mustang is part of an overall European narrative of stereotypes of the US. Anyone who has watched Top Gear would see it in spades. Just go back and watch any time they got a hold of a Corvette, or a Challenger, or a GT40... You see/hear everything they said about the Mustang in the recent show said about these other cars. Any Mustang will be fighting these headwinds... And no matter what Ford does with the product will change that, and as such they should be careful not putting money for no return.

[Edstock]

[BORG]

The US is the only true automotive meritocratic nation in the world, which is something to be proud of. It makes for a better Detroit.

Edited March 10, 2013 by BORG

[RichardJensen]

My expectations:

 

The Australian market will take almost as many Mustangs as all of western Europe, and in Europe the two biggest markets will be the UK and Germany, with Germany a distant, distant, distant second. No other western EU market will account for anything worth mentioning.

 

I would further postulate that the Mustang will be popular in the former Communist Bloc countries, but I couldn't even begin to guess how much effective demand there is for the Mustang in those countries.

Edited March 10, 2013 by RichardJensen

[RichardJensen]

And let's remember the real reason why Ford is developing the Mustang for the rest of the world:

 

[mackinaw]

Not a Mustang story but interesting nonetheless.

 

About 20 years back while motoring through Spain, we were passed by, of all things, an early 90's Mercury Grand Marquis. Several kilometers up, at a small bistro, we saw the big Mercury parked out front surrounded by little Renaults, Peugeots, Volkswagens, Sierras and Fiats. I was amazed at the number of people who were gathered around looking at the Mercury. It was big and American and they were fascinated by it.

 

I have no idea how well a Mustang will sell in Europe, but there is an interest in non-european things. The Mustang may very well turn out to be what the VW bug was back in the 1960's, an anti-establishment car.

[jpd80]

My expectations:

 

The Australian market will take almost as many Mustangs as all of western Europe, and in Europe the two biggest markets will be the UK and Germany, with Germany a distant, distant, distant second. No other western EU market will account for anything worth mentioning.

 

I would further postulate that the Mustang will be popular in the former Communist Bloc countries, but I couldn't even begin to guess how much effective demand there is for the Mustang in those countries.

At the moment, Aussie buyers pay well over $90,000 for a regular GT converted to RHD and over $135,000 for a converted high series Shelby is not uncommon.

 

In the early 2000s FoA commissioned Tickford to convert 500 GT Mustangs to RHD, by the time two cars were crash tested $,500,000 a piece amd conversion work done, there was no change out of $85,000. This is what's screwing the pooch for Mustang sales in RHD countries.

 

If RHD was in house, Ford would have no trouble selling US built Mustang for prices 50% higher than domestic,

a GT V8 would therefore retail for around $45,000 to $50,000 which ties in well with entry level FPV Falcons,

The supercharged 5.0 GS starts at $54,000 and the GT is around $75,000.

 

Australia is a small but profitable niche for HP RWD Ford and GM products.if they are priced and executed .properly

Edited March 10, 2013 by jpd80

[RichardJensen]

Not a Mustang story but interesting nonetheless.

 

About 20 years back while motoring through Spain, we were passed by, of all things, an early 90's Mercury Grand Marquis. Several kilometers up, at a small bistro, we saw the big Mercury parked out front surrounded by little Renaults, Peugeots, Volkswagens, Sierras and Fiats. I was amazed at the number of people who were gathered around looking at the Mercury. It was big and American and they were fascinated by it.

 

I have no idea how well a Mustang will sell in Europe, but there is an interest in non-european things. The Mustang may very well turn out to be what the VW bug was back in the 1960's, an anti-establishment car.

 

You can also see the fascination in the Raptor video from the Nurburgring, and the reports of how the 'unwashed' loved the roaring brutish 427 GTs and Cobras at LeMans in the 60s (and latterly, the popularity of the front-engined "Batmobile" that Dyson ran there about fifteen years ago).

 

But I think that the 'effective demand'--those with the money to spend on a Mustang--are far more prejudiced than the 'man-in-the-street'.

[FordBuyer]

Not too long ago, I was talking with a guy who just got back from a trip to Germany, and he couldn't believe how many Mustangs he saw there on street. Some Germans must be buying and driving them.

[FordBuyer]

I mean, if you think for one moment that BMW buyers are going to buy Mustangs.....

 

These Mustangs will be very nice cars for people that like Mustangs, and they will have almost no appeal to anyone else anywhere else.

 

Arguing that there are some horrible deficiencies in the U.S. Mustang that prevent it from being accepted by 'more discerning' buyers is just ridiculous. That 'discerning taste' is just prejudice in another skin.

 

I guarantee you that nothing, NOTHING, Ford could do with the Mustang will render it acceptable to those who do not like foreign and especially American cars.

 

Give it the ability to lap the ballyhooed 'ring faster than a BMW M3, and it will be picked apart for being too wide, or that its performance is largely due to its tires, or that it is not economical enough, or that it doesn't come with a diesel option, or that its interior is in some indefinable way 'inferior', or that it is too expensive for what you get, or that it's unrefined.

 

I can tell you right now that this Mustang will not conquer any prejudices. It will be a nice option for Mustang fans who--till now--have had to buy very expensive gray-market cars, and that's about it.

 

And you say I repeat myself over and over and over again? Talk about calling the kettle black. You are one hypocritical dude.

[papilgee4evaeva]

:fear:

[Kris Kolman]

All of this has merit... And as such the Mustang will likely only be a niche product overseas. But its not as if the Mustang is known for being a polished car with high end equipment. The European xenophobic image of the Mustang as a simplistic hammer might actually work in a weird way for a car always been known for cheep thrills. And as for your point about markets... Germany as a market is effectively as nearly closed as Japan or Korea... The Mustang was never going to work there. Overseas sales potential was always going to be based on China, Oceania, British Isles, and Eastern Europe. And in that regard all of these markets have shown to be very willing go with smaller turbocharged engines in place of displacement (i.e. turbo 6 Falcon).

[RichardJensen]

And you say I repeat myself over and over and over again? Talk about calling the kettle black. You are one hypocritical dude.

 

Go start your own forum.

[mustang_sallad]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4977ABZWxe0

 

Yeah. I'm wrong about EU prejudices against American cars.

 

Your prejudices against Europeans are almost as bad as Europeans' prejudices against American cars.

[RichardJensen]

Your prejudices against Europeans are almost as bad as Europeans' prejudices against American cars.

Right.

 

Do not assume that everything I post here represents everything I think.

[mustang_sallad]

Ya, sorry, I just saw an opportunity for a snarky comment. I don't know if you actually know any Europeans or if you're basing all this on what Top Gear says. Maybe you're basing this on actual sales results of previous attempts of selling American cars in Europe, that's probably the best basis for a judgement here. But in my experience, based on many Europeans I've met over the years (i lived there for a year, and I've met many Brits, French, Dutch and German living here in North America) there is a genuine excitement about particularly American things. A Mustang is exotic to them. Several of my friends here have gone out of their way to rent a Mustang for a road trip while they're here. Now maybe you're right that that doesn't necessarily translate into a sale back in Europe, but in my small sample set, the majority of Europeans are not "prejudiced" against American cars. If I was in charge at Ford, I certainly wouldn't just give up before even trying, as you seem to be suggesting.

[RichardJensen]

I'm pretty sure Ford's major aim in turning the Mustang into an international vehicle is Chinese sales.

 

As far as my general assessment of European tribalism, my insights are neither unique nor are they without foundation. Germany's bizarre citizenship laws which effectively discriminate against Turkish immigrants while having an appearance of fairness; French and Italian discrimination against the Romani; French actions against Muslim religious traditions; Greeks invoking Nazi imagery and language to protest German insistence on austerity; racial taunts at British, Dutch and Italian soccer matches; Paolo Berlusconi's references to the family's 'little n----r'--and that's just what I can think of in a few minutes.

 

To be sure, Europe is not without positive aspects, but it is equally not without its problems; problems that are generally at odds with the way its political and cultural leaders wish it to be seen.

Edited March 11, 2013 by RichardJensen

[Biker16]

I left in the only part of that list you got right.

 

If you think that the European press and public are not generally xenophobic....................... and do not generally have an irrational prejudice against American cars.................................

 

This is a continent where it is still considered acceptable---in multiple venues---to loudly chant racist epithets; where freedom of religion is routinely trampled, where the notion of ethnic and national identity is tied together on a level that would be frightening if expressed in the U.S. Europe has the means and resources to accept as many refugees per year as the U.S. yet they do not, and that is due to the overwhelming tribalism of European culture. There is no other sound reason for Fiat to be the best selling brand in Italy: Their cars are, objectively speaking, terrible. Ditto Renault, Peugeot and Citroen in France. How are all these companies able to maintain footholds in their home countries while being relative laughingstocks elsewhere? Because Europe---beneath its sophisticated veneer---is as tribal as any other part of the world with thousands of years of settlements.

 

You can make any number of valid criticisms about the U.S., from the ludicrous exceptionalism to the constant invocation of God by political leaders, but you cannot accuse this country, culturally, of being opposed to new and different things from different places. Now try that notion out in Europe and see where it gets you.

 

what does this have to do with your expertise on the hearts and minds of 700 million europeans?

 

I mean, if you think for one moment that BMW buyers are going to buy Mustangs.....

 

These Mustangs will be very nice cars for people that like Mustangs, and they will have almost no appeal to anyone else anywhere else.

 

Arguing that there are some horrible deficiencies in the U.S. Mustang that prevent it from being accepted by 'more discerning' buyers is just ridiculous. That 'discerning taste' is just prejudice in another skin.

 

I guarantee you that nothing, NOTHING, Ford could do with the Mustang will render it acceptable to those who do not like foreign and especially American cars.

 

Give it the ability to lap the ballyhooed 'ring faster than a BMW M3, and it will be picked apart for being too wide, or that its performance is largely due to its tires, or that it is not economical enough, or that it doesn't come with a diesel option, or that its interior is in some indefinable way 'inferior', or that it is too expensive for what you get, or that it's unrefined.

 

I can tell you right now that this Mustang will not conquer any prejudices. It will be a nice option for Mustang fans who--till now--have had to buy very expensive gray-market cars, and that's about it.

 

It doesn't have to, it just has to not be a POS, with a 1950s SRA, and 1980s interior.

 

My expectations:

 

The Australian market will take almost as many Mustangs as all of western Europe, and in Europe the two biggest markets will be the UK and Germany, with Germany a distant, distant, distant second. No other western EU market will account for anything worth mentioning.

 

I would further postulate that the Mustang will be popular in the former Communist Bloc countries, but I couldn't even begin to guess how much effective demand there is for the Mustang in those countries.

 

You will be wrong. Since OZ can't save its own RWD cult car why would you thing it would buy the mustang?

 

The issue with OZ is market size, they have the wealth they just don't have the people.

 

 

 

Edited March 11, 2013 by Biker16

[Mark B. Morrow]

Selling the Mustang in Europe or Asia is about selling its American character. It won't be for everyone, in fact that's part of the point. It's for someone who wants something different.

[Biker16]

You can also see the fascination in the Raptor video from the Nurburgring, and the reports of how the 'unwashed' loved the roaring brutish 427 GTs and Cobras at LeMans in the 60s (and latterly, the popularity of the front-engined "Batmobile" that Dyson ran there about fifteen years ago).

 

But I think that the 'effective demand'--those with the money to spend on a Mustang--are far more prejudiced than the 'man-in-the-street'.

it doesn't matter.

 

you are saying that European hate America and don't buy American cars, or something like that.

 

You are mistaking criticism for hatred, they are not the same, even the worse reviewed cars can still sell in crazy quantities.

 

yet ignoring the fact that there were some extreme issue with refinement, performance and handling in previous mustangs. the issue brought up by top gear have also been noted in US auto mags too. the fact is Ford sells a shitload of cars in the EU, bias against Ford may exist, but they Still sell a shit load of cars there.