OHV 16V Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Decent article. Ford and the current lawsuit filed against them discussed too. http://www.caranddriver.com/features/why-is-the-epa-so-bad-at-estimating-hybrid-fuel-economy-feature Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Lots of nice graphics, lots of prose. Plenty of distortion surrounding the "MPG-Based" calculation. See p. 25 of this PDF for the rest of the story. http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-AIR/2006/December/Day-27/a9749.pdf Each year, manufacturers must demonstrate compliance with federal emission standards by performing tests over all five test procedures. The vehicles on which these tests are performed are known as ‘‘emission data vehicles’’, which are selected to represent the ‘‘worst-case’’ emitting vehicle in a group of vehicles, known as a ‘‘test group’’, which share common engine and emission control designs. EPA issues certificates of emission conformity for each test group of vehicles in each model year. Thus, for each test group, there exists a set of official certification test data from all five test cycles—FTP, HFET, US06, SC03 and Cold FTP The Fusion Hybrid does not share a "common engine and emission control design" with any other Fusion. Therefore, it is tested separately using the full five test cycle required to demonstrate emissions compliance. For C&D to suggest that the hybrid's FE is being mathematically computed using the "MPG-Based" formula is at best irresponsible, and at worst, fraudulent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chevys Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Good article thanks for posting. Here is what I got out of it. The epa test cycle is flawed. Especially for hybrids and small turbo engines. Ford gamed the system and everything they claim can be duplicated in a lab. The results in the lab cant be duplicated on the street. Everybody else games the system but Ford is better at it. Congrats Ford. Seriously, the epa tests need to be changed. I mean who drives 60 on the interstate? You better run 75 here to keep from getting run over. Until then, who can blame Ford? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Lots of nice graphics, lots of prose. Plenty of distortion surrounding the "MPG-Based" calculation. See p. 25 of this PDF for the rest of the story. http://www.epa.gov/fedrgstr/EPA-AIR/2006/December/Day-27/a9749.pdf The Fusion Hybrid does not share a "common engine and emission control design" with any other Fusion. Therefore, it is tested separately using the full five test cycle required to demonstrate emissions compliance. For C&D to suggest that the hybrid's FE is being mathematically computed using the "MPG-Based" formula is at best irresponsible, and at worst, fraudulent. When I first read this article in print a few weeks ago, I was amazed that someone like Csaba Csere would make this kind of egregious error. Amazed and disappointed as I had a high regard for him. I tried to find an e-mail address for either C&D or him to write him to tell him how off base he is, but I gave up after a while. (Most of the auto magazines are now headquartered in Ann Arbor, so I guess I could have just stopped in to bitch at them, but it wasn't worth the effort.) You are correct. Ford does not extrapolate data from other ICE applications to the hybrid; it's tested separately. And manufacturers can't use the fuel economy adjustment that was available at one time; they have to run the full five cycle tests. Csaba should be embarrassed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Good article thanks for posting. Here is what I got out of it. The epa test cycle is flawed. Especially for hybrids and small turbo engines. Ford gamed the system and everything they claim can be duplicated in a lab. The results in the lab cant be duplicated on the street. Everybody else games the system but Ford is better at it. Congrats Ford. Seriously, the epa tests need to be changed. I mean who drives 60 on the interstate? You better run 75 here to keep from getting run over. Until then, who can blame Ford? The EPA test is not driving 60 on the interstate, not is at steady state. Please go to: http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/fe_test_schedules.shtml Ford probably wouldn't be too upset if the tests changed, as long as the original two tests (those that are used for CAFE compliance) are kept the same. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Good article thanks for posting. Here is what I got out of it. The epa test cycle is flawed. Especially for hybrids and small turbo engines. Ford gamed the system and everything they claim can be duplicated in a lab. The results in the lab cant be duplicated on the street. Everybody else games the system but Ford is better at it. Congrats Ford. Seriously, the epa tests need to be changed. I mean who drives 60 on the interstate? You better run 75 here to keep from getting run over. Until then, who can blame Ford? You nailed it. Interesting also how a few years ago full hybrids did very well city wise of course, but not much better or worse than nonhybrid on highway. Now all of a sudden highway mileage is just as good as city which certianly made me roll my eyes. I get it that Ford's latest hybrids can get up to 60mph on electric power only, but driving on freeway at speed that doesn't cause problems at 47mpg I never believed. And as stated hard for EPA test to properly give accurate measure of how well a turbo does or doesn't do fuel mileage wise. So before hybrids lately and turbos, it seemed like everyone just about that drove sanely could get as good or better than what was posted on sticker. Now it seems like no one can. So no wonder the controversy. I know on my V6 24 valver I almost always beat fuel mileage on sticker both city and highway, and now it seems like everyone driving turbo 4 or hybrid can't come close to sticker mileage numbers. And in some cases missing by 15% and more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 You are correct. Ford does not extrapolate data from other ICE applications to the hybrid; it's tested separately. And manufacturers can't use the fuel economy adjustment that was available at one time; they have to run the full five cycle tests. The article did have a new piece of info: That there is a difference between the models that have to be tested for FE and those that have to be tested for emissions. Apparently, say an F150 with a number of rear axle ratios, does not need to have all 5 tests run for each ratio; instead, I guess they run all five for the worst case emitter and run two for each other combo, and then approximate the 5 test numbers for the variants that only ran 2 tests. But, also, if I read the regs correctly, they can only do that if the two test numbers are within 5% of the two test numbers on the one subject to all five tests. Previously, I had thought that all vehicles were subject to all five tests, but apparently, the classification for FE reporting varies from the classification required for emissions reporting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mackinaw Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 When I first read this article in print a few weeks ago, I was amazed that someone like Csaba Csere would make this kind of egregious error. Amazed and disappointed as I had a high regard for him. I tried to find an e-mail address for either C&D or him to write him to tell him how off base he is, but I gave up after a while. .......Csaba should be embarrassed. Just send an email to C&D. Csere will get it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlhenk Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 EPA has told me that for sticker purposes, hybrids tested the same way. Maybe they don't even know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4d4evr-1 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Good article thanks for posting. Here is what I got out of it. The epa test cycle is flawed. Especially for hybrids and small turbo engines. Ford gamed the system and everything they claim can be duplicated in a lab. The results in the lab cant be duplicated on the street. Everybody else games the system but Ford is better at it. Congrats Ford. Seriously, the epa tests need to be changed. I mean who drives 60 on the interstate? You better run 75 here to keep from getting run over. Until then, who can blame Ford? You are just simply full of shit. You come here and troll with your ignorant opinions and spout what you think others should do. I have a C-Max hybrid and have averaged better than 44 MPG since purchased in November and a total of 5900 miles. Since the weather has warmed we are averaging over 50 in mixed driving. We, my wife and I, drive in 35, 45,55 and 65 MPH limits and we keep up with traffic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 EPA has told me that for sticker purposes, hybrids tested the same way. Maybe they don't even know? That statement is correct. Hybrids use the same testing cycle as regular ICE cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30 OTT 6 Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Ecoboost V2.0 should solve a lot of the fuel consumption issues in the current version. EB V2.0 will have new heads with integrated exhaust manifolds. This should help cool the exhaust down without having to run a rich air/fuel ratio to keep the turbos from overheating. It will also mean a beefed up radiator to handle the increased cooling demands. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TBirdStangSkyliner Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Ecoboost V2.0 should solve a lot of the fuel consumption issues in the current version. EB V2.0 will have new heads with integrated exhaust manifolds. This should help cool the exhaust down without having to run a rich air/fuel ratio to keep the turbos from overheating. It will also mean a beefed up radiator to handle the increased cooling demands. So when will V2.0 be in MKZ's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harley Lover Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 The new 1.5 Ecoboost incorporates those technologies (adopted from the 1.0 3 cylinder Ecoboost), and it is announced for the Fusion. Not sure if a 1.5 will be the right engine for the MKZ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil1336 Posted May 8, 2013 Share Posted May 8, 2013 Did anyone complain back in 2010 when the MY 2011 Ford Fiesta was launched and it actually (exceeded) the EPA estimates? How often do you see that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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