grbeck Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) This entire discussion over raising the Minimum Hourly Wage would be a Job Killer is pure Propaganda put out by the US Chambers of Commerce, The Billionaire Koch Brothers, and other advocates of Anti-Union and Right to Work Legislation. Big Corporations or Small Family Businesses only hire extra (pairs of Hands) if their business requires extra help. People are not hired out of charity, community welfare improvement, or kindness. Its out of necessity, period! If you need extra help to drop baskets of French Fries or Chicken into a Fryer or need extra hands to Flip Burgers or take cash as a Cashier, you will hire the needed help at $8.00 @ hour or $12.00 @ hour regardless. Sure, the extra cost will be passed unto the Consumer by raising the prices a nickel or a dime but is that going to stop Folks from purchasing? A livable Wage reduces the need for Public Assistance such as Food Stamps paid for by (all) Tax Payers, including low income minimum wage Workers. There are Lies and Damn Lies, to this debate! Socialism? Wealth Re-distribution? What scare tactic will be used next? I knew the thread wouldn't be complete until those nefarious Koch Brothers popped up in the discussion. We still need the obligatory Fox News reference to make it really complete. If you believe that increasing the labor costs of a business by 50 percent - which is what an increase from $8 an hour to $12 an hour represents - won't have any impact on the hiring decisions of a low-margin business (which most businesses that pay the minimum wage are), then I'm afraid you are sadly mistaken. And if you believe that those additional costs will only represent a nickel or dime more in the price paid by customers, I'm afraid you are REALLY mistaken. No business can absorb a 50-percent increase in labor costs without taking drastic action. Businesses will respond to an increase of that magnitude by turning to automation and improved productivity processes, both of which eliminate the need to hire the extra help in the first place. Are you aware, for example, that someone has invented a way to make a hamburger with NO human labor? Read about it here: http://www.gizmag.com/hamburger-machine/25159/ If someone can automate the ENTIRE process of making a particular product, then parts of the production process can also be automated. Which means that, instead of paying the higher wages, the business will simply buy a machine and be done with it. The problem of minimum wage jobs will ultimately be "solved" by eliminating them, not by raising the wages of said jobs. Mandating the second only encourages the first to happen more quickly. Edited March 11, 2014 by grbeck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Imawhosure Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 Imma, After comparing the sites you sourced and their loose statistical points against standard sites such as the census it's apparent the these highly biased sites of yours, reboot Illinois and Illinois policy are indeed playing really fast and loose with the truth. While Chicago had seen a decline previous, currently it is likely in a slow climb, not losing droves of people as you claim. If you wish to consider this an issue for Chicago then so be it, but there is no mass exodus. Im sure that you might catch some localized rightwing talk radio and they might be playing it up but i don't see that your right. I'd like to point out that Atlas Moving migration study has Indiana as a high outbound state and shows Illinois to have had 5,000 moves out in 2013. That's not exactly droves is it? Langston, if you don't want to believe CAP and I, makes no difference to me. I am just regurgitating what the media says. (that would be local ABC, NBC, and CBS; not some right wing outlets) In fact, in my 1st post on the issue, I said it before I even checked any links because that is what they had been saying. The only link I even looked for was the bond rating one until you requested the others. This thread is about minimum wage anyway; and I doubt what someone does or does not think is happening in Illinois or Chicago will matter one bit to the eventual outcome of that city/state, especially if the person thinking it doesn't live there. I was just passing on the bond rating, and what NBC, CBS, and ABC local affiliates were proclaiming; along with their assertions that Illinois and Chicago are in severe........no, very severe problems, while I was agreeing with you to boot. I don't understand------>I agree with you, and then you still want to tell me I am wrong. Go figure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 11, 2014 Share Posted March 11, 2014 (edited) Instead of Chicago, we can mention another formerly strong industrial city that has lost a good portion of its population and tax base over the past 3 decades: Baltimore. The only solutions they have been implementing for years are all revenue-based: alcohol tax, bottle tax, parking fees, etc and so far it doesn't seem like any of them are having any meaningful net positive effect. On a wider state level, other taxes have led several large businesses to choose moving to Pennsylvania or Virginia instead and has led several other companies to reduce investment on facilities they already operate in-state. Plenty of wealthy individuals still live here because, at least for now, there's enough business for gainful employment, but many of them leave when they retire, and more and more, I see people living in Virginia and Pennsylvania and commuting here. My brother recently got a new job where he can telecommute -- could live anywhere in the country he wanted. He wanted to remain close to our family, which is mostly in Maryland, but he chose Delaware, almost entirely due to the cost of living. Oh, and to keep it on topic, the Maryland House of Delegates just approved a $10.10 minumum wage. Has yet to go to the Senate though. At least they'll likely have the sense to knock it down a buck or two. Edited March 11, 2014 by NickF1011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mettech Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation-now/2014/03/24/minimum-wage-rent-affordable-housing/6817639/?sf24226517=1 Twenty-one states and D.C. have a minimum wage higher than the federal minimum wage of $7.25, according to the Labor Department. But a higher minimum wage doesn't translate into housing affordability. In D.C., the minimum wage is $11.50, but a full-time worker would have to make $12.60 an hour to afford a one-bedroom rental and $15.42 an hour for a two-bedroom apartment, according to the NLIHC report. "The minimum wage has just not kept up with the cost of living for about 40 years," said Bob Pollin, an economics professor and co-director of the Political Economy Research Institute at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. The Obama administration has backed efforts to increase the federal minimum wage to $10.10 an hour, but Congress has not passed any wage hike and is unlikely to do so. Last month's Congressional Budget Office report found raising the minimum wage to $10.10 would lift 900,000 workers above the poverty line but cost 500,000 jobs. NLIHN says raising the federal minimum wage alone does not solve the complex issue. The nation must also address a shortage of about 7 million affordable rental units for extremely low income households, defined as 30% of an area's mean income. Eliminating that shortage would cost roughly $30 billion a year for 10 years, according to NLIHC. The National Housing Trust Fund, a federal program, was designed to address the shortage, but the initiative is unfunded. The fund would provide grants to states to build or reconstruct affordable housing, according to HUD. Last week, leaders in the Senate Banking Committee released text for legislation that would provide $3.5 billion a year for the fund. The low-income housing tax credit also spurs the development of affordable rental housing, said George Hezel, director of the Affordable Housing Clinic at SUNY Buffalo Law School. "It's not always oriented to the extremely low-income families, but it has produced a lot of much-needed housing all across the United States," Hezel said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xr7g428 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 As if passing a law could fix the economy... Taking money out of one persons pocket and putting it in another's does not increase the number of dollars. Any increase in purchasing power given to one group is taken away from another. We have to stop doing stupid stuff. The supply of potential employees far and away exceeds the demand. Eliminating a half million jobs only makes this worse. If you genuinely want to raise the minimum wage, you have to increase the demand for employees. If you love jobs, you better love business. We have to start electing people that are interested in making American companies more competitive instead of trying to find ways to extract more from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 As if passing a law could fix the economy... Taking money out of one persons pocket and putting it in another's does not increase the number of dollars. Any increase in purchasing power given to one group is taken away from another. We have to stop doing stupid stuff. The supply of potential employees far and away exceeds the demand. Eliminating a half million jobs only makes this worse. If you genuinely want to raise the minimum wage, you have to increase the demand for employees. If you love jobs, you better love business. We have to start electing people that are interested in making American companies more competitive instead of trying to find ways to extract more from them. Wait - are you implying that businesses create jobs based on consumer demand and that in turn drives higher demand for workers which in turn drives higher wages? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FiredMotorCompany Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Wait - are you implying that businesses create jobs based on consumer demand and that in turn drives higher demand for workers which in turn drives higher wages? Heresy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Wait - are you implying that businesses create jobs based on consumer demand and that in turn drives higher demand for workers which in turn drives higher wages? Even in times of high demand, businesses are always looking for competitive advantage or ways to improve efficiency. If the cost of labor isn't cost competitive with technology, then technology wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Even in times of high demand, businesses are always looking for competitive advantage or ways to improve efficiency. If the cost of labor isn't cost competitive with technology, then technology wins. Of course, but all other things being equal employees in higher demand jobs will be paid more than employees in the same type of lower demand jobs. At one time our local fast food places like Wendy's were paying $2 above minimum wage and offering a $100 hiring bonus because they couldn't get workers in our area. This whole notion that a minimum wage job should be permanent and should allow a person to live comfortably on their own is ridiculous. They should be temporary jobs for new workers or workers in between other jobs. You need to live at home or have roommates. That's your incentive to learn new skills and move up to a higher paying job or new career. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Of course, but all other things being equal employees in higher demand jobs will be paid more than employees in the same type of lower demand jobs. At one time our local fast food places like Wendy's were paying $2 above minimum wage and offering a $100 hiring bonus because they couldn't get workers in our area. This whole notion that a minimum wage job should be permanent and should allow a person to live comfortably on their own is ridiculous. They should be temporary jobs for new workers or workers in between other jobs. You need to live at home or have roommates. That's your incentive to learn new skills and move up to a higher paying job or new career. Wholly agree. Most people who earn minimum wage are teenagers. And most people who start at minimum wage are making more within a few months; AFTER they've demonstrated proficiency and willingness to work. What isn't widely discussed is a rise in the minimum wage is often a determiner of union wages. It's usually written in the union contract that any rise in the minimum wage results in a commensurate (and automatic) raise to union workers' wages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 What isn't widely discussed is a rise in the minimum wage is often a determiner of union wages. It's usually written in the union contract that any rise in the minimum wage results in a commensurate (and automatic) raise to union workers' wages. No wonder they are pushing for it so hard. It's not like there are unions out there filled with people earning minimum wage. They have their own dog in this fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rn4 Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Wholly agree. Most people who earn minimum wage are teenagers. And most people who start at minimum wage are making more within a few months; AFTER they've demonstrated proficiency and willingness to work. What isn't widely discussed is a rise in the minimum wage is often a determiner of union wages. It's usually written in the union contract that any rise in the minimum wage results in a commensurate (and automatic) raise to union workers' wages. What unions have that in their contract, none that I have ever belonged to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Most that I've seen use a COLA formula, not minimum wage. Then again the contracts I've seen don't have minimum wage jobs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RangerM Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 What unions have that in their contract, none that I have ever belonged to. Off the top of my head: SEIU UFCW UNITE (I think it's called) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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