akirby Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Wait? Do I lose points for R'ing TFM? You non-conformist you...... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Looks like the big item is the spare tire delete (-92lbs) And, frankly, Ford could probably re-rate all these trucks to match, but as I said, they're already doing something goofy to 'sanitize' the GVWRs they release to the public, and they're going to the SAE methodology with the aluminum trucks anyway. I'd love to see the internal memos that explain and justify the rounding that they're doing with GVWRs, as well as the raw data. I'd say the rounding is due to the fact that not every truck, even identically equipped, weighs the same. These are big-a$$ trucks, and a bit more rubber on these two tires, or slight tolerances in the frame, or axles, or anything of the sort could easily add or subtract 10, 20, 30 lbs from a truck. Hence, you get +/- 50 lbs on the F150 and +/- 100 lbs on the Super Duty. Heck, these trucks probably have 10 lbs of paint on them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Yeah, but that doesn't figure given that Ford posts the exact weight of options and packages in that link above. I don't think you could find a pound's worth of weight difference between two identical trucks coming right off the line. I'd buy rounding as a means of making the numbers more customer friendly, more than I'd buy any argument that relies on engineering/statistical considerations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Yeah, but that doesn't figure given that Ford posts the exact weight of options and packages in that link above. I don't think you could find a pound's worth of weight difference between two identical trucks coming right off the line. I'd buy rounding as a means of making the numbers more customer friendly, more than I'd buy any argument that relies on engineering/statistical considerations. It's easier to know exact weights (rounded to the nearest pound) of single options than an entire truck given a statistical percentage difference of weights. But, you are probably right, it's most-likely just to make things more friendly for the customer. Most customers are, after all, idiots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 So what happens when the alloy bodied Super Dutys arrive in the next couple of years and F450 easily qualifies as a class 3... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 Looks like the big item is the spare tire delete (-92lbs) I can believe that. I just had to change the rear tire on my F150, and heaving its 18" wheel shod with 265/60R-18 Michelins into the bed will definitely cause your babies to be born nekkid. Heck, heaving the unmounted tire by itself will cause that. And the spare was even worse. I'm just glad those things are round, and can be rolled where they need to go... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 28, 2014 Share Posted July 28, 2014 I can believe that. I just had to change the rear tire on my F150, and heaving its 18" wheel shod with 265/60R-18 Michelins into the bed will definitely cause your babies to be born nekkid. Heck, heaving the unmounted tire by itself will cause that. And the spare was even worse. I'm just glad those things are round, and can be rolled where they need to go... Amazing the difference between the steel spare and a regular aluminum rim, isn't it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Amazing the difference between the steel spare and a regular aluminum rim, isn't it! You ain't kidding, brother. My LS has 245/45ZR-17 tires, and I'm pretty sure the un-mounted Michelins for my truck weigh more than the LS's wheel/tire combo (admittedly, the LS's wheels are incredibly light)--but that steel-wheeled spare makes them feel like feathers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Extreme4x4 Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I buy and sell factory wheels to make some extra money from home. The 16" chromed steel F250 wheels weigh almost the same as the 20" alloy F250 wheel. After buying one set of the steel ones, never again. I have an easier time flinging the 20's around. It is interesting, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I buy and sell factory wheels to make some extra money from home. The 16" chromed steel F250 wheels weigh almost the same as the 20" alloy F250 wheel. After buying one set of the steel ones, never again. I have an easier time flinging the 20's around. It is interesting, however. You don't have a set of 20" take-offs with new tires from an '11-'15 Super Duty, do you? I'm needing tires for my truck, and am considering going that route vs. just buying new tires. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 30, 2014 Share Posted July 30, 2014 I have an easier time flinging the 20's around. Sorry but all I could think about when you said that was the Monty Python skit about the man who had a cat who he claimed could fly around the room. "Your cat flies?" "No, I fling her!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan1 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 UPDATE: After denials, GM is forced to admit they play games too............. More Game Playing? Now GM 'Fesses Up GM has made an about-face regarding how it calculates maximum payload numbers for its full-size pickup trucks. You might recall that Ford got into a little hot water by admitting it strips out certain features from the Super Dutys and F-150 pickups (like the radio, spare tire, center console and tire jack) in order to calculate the highest possible payload capacity for a given truck. At the time, both Ram and GM denied they do anything similar. But that wasn't entirely true. GM now says, according to Automotive News, that it does remove the rear bumper and swap out to an optional wheel choice on certain models if it helps achieve a lighter weight number — which automatically means a larger payload rating. Both deletions are done, we're told, because those are delete options that could be ordered by a customer. http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2014/07/more-game-playing-now-gm-fesses-up.html GM, too, removes parts to weigh pickups, boost payload ratings Practice juices maximum payloads Automotive NewsJuly 30, 2014 - 7:09 pm ET -- UPDATED: 7/31/14 11:06 am ET - adds details DETROIT -- General Motors now says it deletes heavy items such as the rear bumper from certain pickups when it weighs them in order to boost the vehicles’ maximum payload ratings. GM says it adopted the practice for the 2014 model year in response to competitive pressures as it launched redesigned full-sized pickups. In a July 28 Automotive News story about a feud between Ford and Ram over towing claims, a GM spokesman said the automaker does not delete any items from its pickups when it sets their maximum payload capacities. The spokesman, Tom Wilkinson, said Wednesday that the claim was made in error. Payload claims He also said the maximum payload claims for the 2015 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 and GMC Sierra 1500 are based on a minimum curb weight that deletes the rear bumper and the spare tire. http://www.autonews.com/article/20140730/RETAIL03/140739979/gm-too-removes-parts-to-weigh-pickups-boost-payload-ratings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Seems logical to do that since you CAN order a truck that way. Too bad GM wasn't honest up front. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm going to guess that the new SAE test prohibits such activity. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I'm going to guess that the new SAE test prohibits such activity. From my understanding, the new SAE test is a towing test standard and not necessarily a payload standard. Really, though, how do you determine max payload? You take the GVWR minus the net weight of the truck. If that is x lbs and you remove something from a truck that is not essential to towing (say, a spare tire at 92 lbs), then your max payload just went up 92 lbs. It's just simple math. Ram is just getting their panties in a bind because they don't do it like Ford and lose a few lbs of capacity in the process. For all I know, Ram just doesn't have the delete option. It's splitting hairs really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan1 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Seems logical to do that since you CAN order a truck that way. Too bad GM wasn't honest up front. You can order a new Chevy half-ton without a rear bumper? That is news to me. Front and rear bumpers are standard equipment. Even if it was some crazy fleet option, removing the bumpers and spare tire to get the desired payload doesn't seem logical becaues you're going to have to put it back anyway. Edited July 31, 2014 by Bryan1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan1 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 UPDATE: After denials, GM is forced to admit they play games too............. More Game Playing? Now GM 'Fesses Up GM has made an about-face regarding how it calculates maximum payload numbers for its full-size pickup trucks. You might recall that Ford got into a little hot water by admitting it strips out certain features from the Super Dutys and F-150 pickups (like the radio, spare tire, center console and tire jack) in order to calculate the highest possible payload capacity for a given truck. At the time, both Ram and GM denied they do anything similar. But that wasn't entirely true. GM now says, according to Automotive News, that it does remove the rear bumper and swap out to an optional wheel choice on certain models if it helps achieve a lighter weight number — which automatically means a larger payload rating. Both deletions are done, we're told, because those are delete options that could be ordered by a customer. http://news.pickuptrucks.com/2014/07/more-game-playing-now-gm-fesses-up.html GM, too, removes parts to weigh pickups, boost payload ratings Practice juices maximum payloads Automotive News July 30, 2014 - 7:09 pm ET -- UPDATED: 7/31/14 11:06 am ET - adds details DETROIT -- General Motors now says it deletes heavy items such as the rear bumper from certain pickups when it weighs them in order to boost the vehicles’ maximum payload ratings. GM says it adopted the practice for the 2014 model year in response to competitive pressures as it launched redesigned full-sized pickups. In a July 28 Automotive News story about a feud between Ford and Ram over towing claims, a GM spokesman said the automaker does not delete any items from its pickups when it sets their maximum payload capacities. The spokesman, Tom Wilkinson, said Wednesday that the claim was made in error. Payload claims He also said the maximum payload claims for the 2015 Chevrolet Silverado 1500 and GMC Sierra 1500 are based on a minimum curb weight that deletes the rear bumper and the spare tire. http://www.autonews.com/article/20140730/RETAIL03/140739979/gm-too-removes-parts-to-weigh-pickups-boost-payload-ratings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 You can order a new Chevy half-ton without a rear bumper? That is news to me. Front and rear bumpers are standard equipment. Even if it was some crazy fleet option, removing the bumpers and spare tire to get the desired payload doesn't seem logical. You can't delete a front bumper due to crash standards, but I wouldn't be surprised if it is an option to delete it for the rear. Not sure if you can or not as I'm not an expert at fleet ordering for GM, but if you can delete it in an order, why shouldn't you be able to delete it from the vehicle weight when calculating max payload? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan1 Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 (edited) Forget what the fleets may or cannot do. It is standard equipment for you and me. 2015 Silverado 1500: front and rear bumpers and full-size tire standard. http://eogld.cloud.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/proddesc.jsp?year=2015®ionID=1&divisionID=1&type=0&vehicleID=16823§ion=oi_def&page=7&butID=16 Why should GM, Ford, or anyone delete standard equipment to get payload? Edited July 31, 2014 by Bryan1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I thought rear bumpers have been optional on trucks for decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Forget what the fleets can or cannot fleets do. It is standard equipment for you and me. 2015 Silverado 1500: front and rear bumpers and full-size tire standard. http://eogld.cloud.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/proddesc.jsp?year=2015®ionID=1&divisionID=1&type=0&vehicleID=16823§ion=oi_def&page=7&butID=16 Why should GM, Ford, or anyone delete standard equipment to get payload? Let's put it a different way. When calculating available payload, what should they use, the base weight or the actual weight of the truck? Should an XL and a Lariat and a Platinum all have the same payload? Should an option you ADD take away from the payload? By the same token, should an option you DELETE (as the truck comes from the manufacturer) add to the payload? You can't have it both ways and have it make sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 I thought rear bumpers have been optional on trucks for decades. They used to be. Then it was only on 3/4 ton and up trucks. And now, they're pretty much standard. You can order without though (not sure if you can on 1/2 tons, but you can on 3/4+), in order to add a stronger bumper, tommy lift, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Forget what the fleets may or cannot do. It is standard equipment for you and me. 2015 Silverado 1500: front and rear bumpers and full-size tire standard. http://eogld.cloud.gm.com/NASApp/domestic/proddesc.jsp?year=2015®ionID=1&divisionID=1&type=0&vehicleID=16823§ion=oi_def&page=7&butID=16 Why should GM, Ford, or anyone delete standard equipment to get payload? Because the question is what is the max payload you can get in a factory ordered vehicle? If it can be ordered that way then that's how it should be reported. What is the difference in deleting an option versus it not being standard and not selecting it as an added option? Can you or can you not order the truck that way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoonerLS Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 It's splitting hairs really. Then I think Robert should sue them, because I'm sure BON must have a patent on that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted July 31, 2014 Share Posted July 31, 2014 Forget what the fleets may or cannot do. Fleets use their trucks too! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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