Ford cancels MKS V-8

[Traveler]

Yes, I'd rather have a naturally aspirated V8 that makes less power IF it means fewer trips to the dealership for repair. I can see a long line forming right now of all those who think Ford can't even build a vehicle without it being recalled, paying $40,000 for a twin-turbo Ford. This could be another potential disaster for Ford if they have problems with this car and I argue that the complexity of such a car is too much to start with doing something that the public is familiar with. You dont go to KFC to buy a cheeseburger. It may be the best burger on the market, but people aren't used to KFC making a cheeseburger. Its too much of a gamble to do too much at one time with the MKS. Make sure its reliable. All I was saying is that Ford has a lot to prove to the automotive world before a Lexus or BMW owner is going to trade in their car for a Ford MKS and I say Ford because Lincoln is well-known to be a Ford product. They can't get away from that. I believe there will be hesitation for a TT V6 as opposed to a naturally aspirated V8.

[Traveler]

The only reason the SVO failed was because of PRICE. It cost significantly more than a 5.0 GT that made the same power and performed reasonably as well. The SVO was the better car. They just priced it way wrong.

 

I disagree. Very few Mustang owners would have gone for the SVO even if it had been the same price.

I think I could speak for most by saying that I would have laughed the salesperson back into the dealership had I been trying to buy a V8 Mustang and had him telling me that the SVO was better. I know a little bit about the SVO even though I wasn't quite driving age. It was a better car in terms of suspension and even more so with the brakes being 4 wheel discs. Why Ford stayed with the rear drums on the other Mustangs for so long, I'm not really sure. Acceleration I think still was the V8's edge and the 5.0 definitely had more torque.

 

When driving a Mustang, I don't want a whooshing turbo four...I want a deep throaty V8. The V8 engine and a car like a Mustang goes together like bacon and eggs. Steve Saleen tried the same thing back in the nineties. You could buy a supercharged 3.8L V6 Saleen that made more power than a Mustang GT and was about the same price with better brakes, suspension and weight distribution. Where did Saleen's blown V6 go?

[goingincirclez]

I tend to agree with Traveler, above. Ford just doesn't have the reputation for turbo sixes needed to cement instant cachet with a new Lincoln of unknown pedigree. As a buyer, I would be suspect of a new (unproven) 3.5 being hastily turbocharged (twice) for a new (unproven) alphabet-soup Lincoln that may or may not be the best Lincoln can offer.

 

Remember the 89-95 T-Bird Super Coupe? Exactly - very few do. It was good for more power and torque than the 5.0s and 4.6s they finally shoehorned into that sled, but by the mid nineties they couldn't give the SC away (and contrary to belief, the poor MN12s were good for 100K sales units right till the unceremonious end, during the nascent SUV craze). Maybe it was the price. Maybe it was the realization that underneah all that fancy supercharging lurked the same 3.8 timebomb that nobody misses. Maybe it simply was the wrong car in a changing market. Point is, the Thunderbird enjoyed a good run in those years, the SC did an admirable job of holding the pedigree... and yet it still flopped. And history has not been kind to the SC.

 

Granted, 14 years can change a lot. We know that Ford CAN build a respectable 'charged motor (2.3 turbo) when they want to. I really want to believe they've learned from their mistakes and the 3.5 will not (lord knows it cannot) be another 3.8. And if they have to start somewhere, then God bless 'em for trying - I hope it sticks. This dare to be different thing and all of that.

 

But asking people to plunk some serious bank for an unproven platform with a dubious pedigree may be asking too much. The TBird SC was a car that lived to a pedigree and even it floundered. The turbo 4's of the 80's have become sought after in hindsight but this isn't the 80's. There are more competitors now who've been nailing the luxury game much better than Lincoln.

 

A V8 would offer a proven conmfort zone befitting a Lincoln, while the TT6 would be an excellent option to test the waters and offer a high0water mark, Sort of like what the Shelbys are to the Mustang.

 

Now if the decision has been made in stone then bitching about it won't help. But they better nail the execution on this one. After that, it's up to the market, and I hope for the best.

[ZanatWork]

The Mustang SVO had the "HEART OF THE PINTO", and the coarseness that resulted. It was laggy, and the exhaust note was something less than mesmerizing.

 

Add that to increased cost...and it was gonna fail.

[96 Pony]

I disagree that Lincoln has always been known more it's style than it's performance. The Mark VII and VIII as examples were not only known for their style but for their performance. Besides, Lincoln has also had some pretty ugly cars come out as well - the Versailles, Mark V-VI and late 50's Mark series come to mind.

 

Personally, as a future buyer of a Lincoln, I wouldn't trust Ford with a 10 foot pole to install anything but a straight V6 or a V8, especially after all my fun trips to the repair shop with my low mileage $40k Thunderbird :angry:

 

What I don't understand is that the Mark VIII came with the 4.6l 4V engine that was used in the Cobras. Why can't they design the MKS so that it could accept the 5.4l like the Shelby Cobra does?

 

The V6 is fine for the older people who buy Lincolns and want a cushy ride which has already been addressed in the Zephyr. For those of us who are younger and don't want to buy a BMW, Mercedes or Cadillac, Lincoln is missing the mark in not offering a powerful V8 with a sport tuned suspension option along the lines of the M Series and loosing out on picking up market share with my generation.

Edited August 22, 2006 by 96 Pony

[ZanatWork]

I'd add that the now-defunct Continental was a potentially great car, and that this new MKS is closer to its formula than that of the outgoing LS.

 

The MKS' engine bay wasn't designed around the mod motors, which are extremely wide and would be transversely mounted. Even if it could be wedged in there, the weight would be horrifying.

[Ralph Greene]

Everyone talks about the "elderly" market as if we aren't car nuts. BTW...I'm 65.

 

But I have noticed as I grow older (and probably have more to spend), I'm more interested in quality or percieved quality. I'm less interested in tire burning performance, than I am fuel efficiency, braking, ride, NVH, and handling performance. I want the car to have great seats, and be many ways adjustable. I want the switch gear to feel "right'. I want the feel of nice materials. I like these new smart 6 speed automatics like we have in the Montego (1st is lower and 6th is taller than before) . And....I don't need my family sedan to be able to do 13 second quarters.

 

BTW....I'm not much into fancy sound systems. Good FM system is all I require.

 

In other words, my idea of "performance" is changing.

 

I also love my local Lincoln Mercury dealership. They know how to take care of a customer. If you're in the market for a Ford product in my area, pick a Lincoln or Mercury. So I imagine we will buy a Mark for the wife and I'll take the Montego as my beater. I may be who Lincoln is marketing to.

 

And further BTW....I'll keep my Mach (or maybe buy one of the new Shelby's) for Mustang Club stuff.

Edited August 22, 2006 by Ralph Greene

[silvrsvt]

I'd add that the now-defunct Continental was a potentially great car

 

A great car doesn't add Airbag rear suspention and a DOHC V8 to the Taraus platform

 

lets try not to hide the pig it was built on.

 

Then theres the rumor that the whole Mod motor program and its shortcomings where due to this car...

[Sizzler]

If they go V-6, they should offset the decrease in cylinders with some sort of labeling that will telegraph to the purchaser and viewers that the HP is still there. Something like Chrysler's old 300 letter series, where 300 was the HP.

 

MKS 300, MKS 400 (round up); throw a 'tt' at the end if you want to promote the twin turbos.

 

Though I still think if you're going to have a MKS, that you shouldn't have an MKX just because in word-of-mouth conversations it's going to be too easy to confuse the two.

[Traveler]

The Continental was shakey at best when it used the Taurus's six early on, but as it developed in the nineties and acquired the transverse-mounted 4.6 DOHC V8 kin to the Mark VIII and Cobra. It was coming around very nicely and I thought was really the best-looking Lincoln during its era. Lend that look to the Town Car today, add in the 3 valve 4.6L and a 5 speed automatic and you've got your Lincoln flagship for another 5 or so years.

Edited August 22, 2006 by Traveler

[old_fairmont_wagon]

For what its worth, the TT 3.5L duratec V6 will also have direct injection. Direct injection can do wonders for preventing detonation and increasing low end torque. So, a N/A 3.5L with just a better induction system and direct injection should be easily capable of 280-300 lbs of torque. A TT duratec 35 with DI should be have ample low end torque, and carry that torque all the way through the RPM band. I dare say that it will feel as good as, if not better, than any V8 in the 4.0-4.4L range that they could have come up with for it.

 

You can lament the Yamaha V8 for not being there, but, lets face it, it has insufficient low end torque for that market and would have required expensive upgrades to achieve competitive power numbers. Some of you may lament the lack of a transverse mod V8 in there, but, realize that this would have required expensive engine compartment mods, and, you'd have had to live with the 4.6L 3V V8 from the Mustang, likely with some induction and exhaust tricks, and running on premium to have a power number of 340 HP and 350 lbs of torque. That would be on the ragged edge of that engine naturally aspirated, and, it would still be on the low end of the competition's power numbers for that class of vehicle.

 

The only V8 that would have made sense for this car is one that isn't even engineered for transverse mounting, the supercharged AJ 4.2L V8. The AJ 4.4L produces decent numbers, but, it is still a touch below average for torque numbers. Doesn't matter for Jag since their high end cars use lots of light weight aluminum and shave 100s of lbs of weight with it.

 

So, we're left with a TT3.5L V6 that will produce competitive power numbers (possibly with regular unleaded, though more likely with premium). While I may secretly wish that ford had a decent V8 to shove in there, I think that, on the spec sheet, it will compare very well with its competition. The platform is competent, the tuning should be decent, though slightly soft. And the interior will be excellent. The exterior will likely be touched up before it starts to sell. I think it will do well for Lincoln.

 

As for wether Ford should develope a V8 from the Duratec 35? Well, I think that it would be a worthy project considering their number of transverse, small engine box platforms that they are using. But, I think that they'd be better off first making a new 7.0L AM V-12 off of the D35, and trickling down a D35 based 6.0L V-12 for Jaguar. And, perhaps an 8.0L V-12 (OK maybe overkill, could just use the 6.0L) for a new range rover sport based off of an 4.0L duratec V6 setup. That would be competitive and bring prestiege to those brands.

 

Just a thought.

[Edgey]

The Lincoln LS had a premium engine and we know what happened to that car. It doesn't make sense that Ford would have brought the Yamaha V8 from Volvo to Lincoln. Ford has never indicated it was interested in heavily investing in Lincoln to bring it up to par with the premium competition. In reality, Lincoln will not be able to attract more customers even if it did invest a lot of money into world class performance and luxury. Lincoln is one of those brands that appeals to entry level, traditional luxury...sort of like Buick. Cadillac has more successfully transitioned out of that mire but it did so at huge expense and very little return (if any). Ford can't subsidize a pet project to reinvent Lincoln. Lincolns best chance for long-term suvival is to keep it alive and profitable. Sinking money into Lincoln with little return could just as quickly doom the brand.

Edited August 22, 2006 by Edgey

[DCK]

The Lincoln LS had a premium engine and we know what happened to that car. It doesn't make sense that Ford would have brought the Yamaha V8 from Volvo to Lincoln. Ford has never indicated it was interested in heavily investing in Lincoln to bring it up to par with the premium competition. In reality, Lincoln will not be able to attract more customers even if it did invest a lot of money into world class performance and luxury. Lincoln is one of those brands that appeals to entry level, traditional luxury...sort of like Buick. Cadillac has more successfully transitioned out of that mire but it did so at huge expense and very little return (if any). Ford can't subsidize a pet project to reinvent Lincoln. Lincolns best chance for long-term suvival is to keep it alive and profitable. Sinking money into Lincoln with little return could just as quickly doom the brand.

What you said doesn't make sense at all. Ford has never really invested in lincoln for the past 20 years. You use the LS as an excuse they shouldn't. The LS was a great car and sold decently while it was fresh, I was the first Lincoln to really be competitive in a long while. You can't expect somplete 180 with one product. If Ford redesigned the LS and kept it fresh it would have been succesfull. Before the LS lincoln had nothing in the sport luxury market, it takes a few years to break through the bad reputation and Ford never gave the LS a chance. You suggest ford pretty much neglict Lincoln, that is what they have been doing and look it where it got them.

 

If you visit any other forum this news is considered very terrible for ford. Come here and people act like its the best descision in the world. Lincoln clearly wants to die.

[Traveler]

You can lament the Yamaha V8 for not being there, but, lets face it, it has insufficient low end torque for that market and would have required expensive upgrades to achieve competitive power numbers. Some of you may lament the lack of a transverse mod V8 in there, but, realize that this would have required expensive engine compartment mods, and, you'd have had to live with the 4.6L 3V V8 from the Mustang, likely with some induction and exhaust tricks, and running on premium to have a power number of 340 HP and 350 lbs of torque. That would be on the ragged edge of that engine naturally aspirated, and, it would still be on the low end of the competition's power numbers for that class of vehicle.

 

Keep in mind that the 4.6 3v in the Mustang is most certainly underrated, actually making more like 320 horsepower at the flywheel...on regular unleaded. Of course, you would have to run a more restrictive exhaust. I agree that the TT V6 can probably in theory be a good choice for the car...but let the TSBs and recalls start flying, the magazines start griping and the news media begin ending their nightly news cast with them and soon the Lincoln MKS is being heavily discounted and the production scrubbed. I think what is needed more than anything is a 3.5 naturally aspirated to run premium or mid-grade and get 290-300 horsepower out of it. It would likely account for the bulk of sales.

 

I think what you have here is the need yet again resurfacing for Ford to pay attention to the 'flagship' V8 RWD sedan to give variety to its line. Then you don't have to worry about pleasing the V8 crowd with the TT V6 or reengineering the 500 platform or tranversely mounting a larger engine. There in lies the turning point for Ford. Will they retain the type of vehicle they are best known for or abandon it for unchartered waters. Remember the ole saying of "don't put all your eggs in one basket."

[waymondospiff]

The Lincoln LS had a premium engine and we know what happened to that car.

 

Yes, here's what happened. The LS sold very well, brought respect to the Lincoln brand, lowered the average buyer age, and won awards. Then, years after Ford/Lincoln failed to update the vehicle and fix its flaws, they're dropping the car and calling it a failure. Oh how short memories can be.

 

I'll say it again: if Lincoln won't ante up and give the MKS a premium engine, why should I pay a premium price for the MKS?

 

Scott

[RichardJensen]

Yes, here's what happened. The LS sold very well, brought respect to the Lincoln brand, lowered the average buyer age, and won awards. Then, years after Ford/Lincoln failed to update the vehicle and fix its flaws, they're dropping the car and calling it a failure. Oh how short memories can be.

 

I'll say it again: if Lincoln won't ante up and give the MKS a premium engine, why should I pay a premium price for the MKS?

 

Scott

The LS didn't sell well.

[Edgey]

I think the Lincoln LS is possibly the best car Ford has ever put out in North America. However it did not thrive in the Lincoln envrionment and was never profitable because of its relationship to Jaguar. It was expensive to manufacture and hard to sell without discounts which means they sold ever car at a loss. It could not have been updated affordably so that is why it was abandoned for the Zephyr.

 

Do I think the Zephyr is a better car than the LS? For Lincoln I think it is! I would certainly never chose a Zephyr over an LS personally, but it targets the Lincoln shopper much better. And they sell every Zephyr at gigantic profit margins. The Zephyr does a very good job convincing shoppers that it is an excellent luxury value even if Ford didn't really spend that much to upgrade a Fusion. The Zephyr is absolutely Ford's biggest success story in the last year. Demand exceeded expectations and despite crticial indifference, the car was well received by consumers. I can only hope the MkZ makes the loss of the LS a little easier to bare.

 

The LS probably could not have survived in its current form because the engine burned premium fuel VERY generously. A RWD gas hog without AWD is not very competitive at this point. Ford needed an all new chasis and engine to continue with the LS.

Edited August 23, 2006 by Edgey

[Hemiman]

I think the Lincoln LS is possibly the best car Ford has ever put out in North America. However it did not thrive in the Lincoln envrionment and was never profitable because of its relationship to Jaguar. It was expensive to manufacture and hard to sell without discounts which means they sold ever car at a loss. It could not have been updated affordably so that is why it was abandoned for the Zephyr.

 

Do I think the Zephyr is a better car than the LS? For Lincoln I think it is! I would certainly never chose a Zephyr over an LS personally, but it targets the Lincoln shopper much better. And they sell every Zephyr at gigantic profit margins. The Zephyr does a very good job convincing shoppers that it is an excellent luxury value even if Ford didn't really spend that much to upgrade a Fusion. The Zephyr is absolutely Ford's biggest success story in the last year. Demand exceeded expectations and despite crticial indifference, the car was well received by consumers. I can only hope the MkZ makes the loss of the LS a little easier to bare.

 

The LS probably could not have survived in its current form because the engine burned premium fuel VERY generously. A RWD gas hog without AWD is not very competitive at this point. Ford needed an all new chasis and engine to continue with the LS.

 

 

My 2000 LS v-8 got 20mpg around town and 29mpg hwy @ 78mph ave speed. At 65 mph ave. it jumped up to 32 mpg! Not bad for such a gas hog. And yes it was the best car ever built in NA!

[ANTAUS]

My 2000, 2003 and current 2005 LS-V8 have never posted anything better than 15MPG around town...maybe 26MPG in the highway if I take a strict road trip with cruise control on at 85 and A/C off, but realistically it's really 22-23 with A/C on at 105MPH.

 

I even gave up trying to be "gentle". Tested it for a week... started off on 2nd or 3rd gear with SST, ease off gently wwaaayyy before stops, etc. Gained me just 2MPG around city which wasn't worth it. So after that test I simply gave up being "gentle" and now just do my usual routine at 13-14MPG. And I dont care, it's tax deductible at the end of the year so burn baby burn !!

[waymondospiff]

The LS didn't sell well.

 

Maybe you and I have different ideas of "sell well" but the LS sold more than 50K units/year for its first two or three years on the market. If anyone has different numbers I'm open to correction but I'm fairly certain that's correct. Considering the Zephyr's target was 20K/year, I'd say the LS was a good seller.

 

Have sales gone down since launch? Yes. Have recent sales been terrible? Yes. Why? Lack of product updates. The DEW98 chassis was and continues to be a world class chassis. But all of its competitors have been updated since 1999. The 2003 "refresh" did nothing to stop the slide. The only marked improvements were the engines being boosted. The exterior was uglier and the interior was "silverized" with that awful trim. The complaints from the day it launched: small interior, plain exterior, and plain/cheap interior were never corrected.

 

The LS was a brilliant car. In my mind it remains the best Lincoln produced. It did everything for Lincoln that the CTS does for Caddillac today, only years earlier. Why Ford/Lincoln hung it out to dry is a mystery.

 

And a travesty.

 

Scott

[BleedinOvalBlue]

Personally. I think a TT 3.5 and N/A 3.5 will hold it well. And, if Ford wants to put a V8 in this thing, and cut back on cost at the same time, wouldnt the good old 4.6 3V do okay? 310 hp, 325 tq?

[Nels Nelson]

I disagree that Lincoln has always been known more it's style than it's performance. The Mark VII and VIII as examples were not only known for their style but for their performance. Besides, Lincoln has also had some pretty ugly cars come out as well - the Versailles, Mark V-VI and late 50's Mark series come to mind.

 

Personally, as a future buyer of a Lincoln, I wouldn't trust Ford with a 10 foot pole to install anything but a straight V6 or a V8, especially after all my fun trips to the repair shop with my low mileage $40k Thunderbird :angry:

 

What I don't understand is that the Mark VIII came with the 4.6l 4V engine that was used in the Cobras. Why can't they design the MKS so that it could accept the 5.4l like the Shelby Cobra does?

 

The V6 is fine for the older people who buy Lincolns and want a cushy ride which has already been addressed in the Zephyr. For those of us who are younger and don't want to buy a BMW, Mercedes or Cadillac, Lincoln is missing the mark in not offering a powerful V8 with a sport tuned suspension option along the lines of the M Series and loosing out on picking up market share with my generation.

 

The September issue of Automobile Magazine picks the '40 & '41 Lincoln Continental and the '61 Lincoln Continental as among the 25 most beautiful cars ever.

 

What magazine ever picked a Lincoln as among the 25 best performance cars ever?

[ZanatWork]

The September issue of Automobile Magazine picks the '40 & '41 Lincoln Continental and the '61 Lincoln Continental as among the 25 most beautiful cars ever.

 

What magazine ever picked a Lincoln as among the 25 best performance cars ever?

 

 

Lincoln would like to trade in some of their stodgy image for some modern desirability.

[lincmerc51]

.

 

The point of my posts are that Lincoln is not known for its performance.

 

 

The people running Lincoln now just don't get it.

 

So, the words to the song should be changed? "My Pappy said son you're gonna gimme a sore back if you don't stop driving that hot rod Cadillac?

 

I quite agree with your last sentence.

[RichardJensen]

Maybe you and I have different ideas of "sell well" but the LS sold more than 50K units/year for its first two or three years on the market. If anyone has different numbers I'm open to correction but I'm fairly certain that's correct. Considering the Zephyr's target was 20K/year, I'd say the LS was a good seller.

 

Have sales gone down since launch? Yes. Have recent sales been terrible? Yes. Why? Lack of product updates. The DEW98 chassis was and continues to be a world class chassis. But all of its competitors have been updated since 1999. The 2003 "refresh" did nothing to stop the slide. The only marked improvements were the engines being boosted. The exterior was uglier and the interior was "silverized" with that awful trim. The complaints from the day it launched: small interior, plain exterior, and plain/cheap interior were never corrected.

 

The LS was a brilliant car. In my mind it remains the best Lincoln produced. It did everything for Lincoln that the CTS does for Caddillac today, only years earlier. Why Ford/Lincoln hung it out to dry is a mystery.

 

And a travesty.

 

Scott

1) I believe the breakeven was closer to 60k/year (consider, this thing was being assembled as a one-off at Wixom--very expensive to build), making 50k units a failure.

 

2) The rear transaxle and torquetube, in combination, made a vehicle that could not be jiggered with at all. Interior too small? Well tough. Re-engineering would cost a fortune.

 

3) The CTS, plus Cadillac's marketing did more for Cadillac than the LS did for Lincoln.

 

Doing it over, the best thing (IMO) that could've been done for Lincoln would be a Jag/Lincoln Sigma type architecture. Make it extendable for a three-size Lincoln package (CD, D, E), and one size for Jag (CD). Sure you won't be able to out 5 the 5-Series, but frankly aiming at another brand gets you no better than second place in any comparison.

 

Invest in rebranding Lincoln as class luxury/surprising performance, and give it better looks than the bland, but well tailored LS.

 

That's what Ford should have (in hindsight) done.

 

However you have to understand that Ford, in the late 90s, was not at all about sharing architectures. They didn't do it properly because at the highest levels of the organization, it was considered foolish.

 

Now, instead of a Jag/Lincoln platform that provides a higher end entry-level Jag and a whole family of Lincolns, you've got Lincoln going off Ford platforms, and Jaguar having an orphan S-Type.

 

It's not the best, but it's too late to change, and it can work. Getting mad about it and being irritated does no good at all.