Hugh Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Which MY 2015 and 2016 Lincoln vehicles are not based on Ford branded models? I'm not aware of any. What Ford is not doing is just putting a Lincoln emblem and calling it a day. You'd might as well call Audi branded VW models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Which MY 2015 and 2016 Lincoln vehicles are not based on Ford branded models? I'm not aware of any. That's not a rebadge. The GMC Yukon XL, known for years as the GMC suburban is a rebadge. The Mercury Milan was a rebadge. The Dodge Ares was a rebadge. The MKC is *not* a rebadge. A rebadge is a car that shares a significant amount of exterior sheet metal with another car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Now you're just trolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) That's not a rebadge. The GMC Yukon XL, known for years as the GMC suburban is a rebadge. The Mercury Milan was a rebadge. The Dodge Ares was a rebadge. The MKC is *not* a rebadge. A rebadge is a car that shares a significant amount of exterior sheet metal with another car. But isn't "badge engineering" essentially about limiting product differentiation to cosmetic elements such as exterior and interior styling, while having common powertrains, chassis, and assembly sites? Yukon XL, Milan, Aries, MKC, and other current Lincoln automobiles all embody that approach to some degree. Edited March 11, 2015 by aneekr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 But isn't "badge engineering" essentially about limiting product differentiation to cosmetic elements such as exterior and interior styling, while having common powertrains, chassis, and assembly sites? Yukon XL, Milan, Aries, MKC, and other current Lincoln automobiles all embody that approach to some degree. And so does other companies such as Jaguar, LR, VW group, Toyota, Nissan. Why is Ford/Lincoln criticized for common practice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 (edited) But isn't "badge engineering" essentially about limiting product differentiation to cosmetic elements such as exterior and interior styling, while having common powertrains, chassis, and assembly sites? Yukon XL, Milan, Aries, MKC, and other current Lincoln automobiles all embody that approach to some degree. 1 - The OED doesn't have an entry for 'rebadge' or 'badge engineering', nor should it, as they're both jargon. And even if there were an entry, the dictionary is a 'trailing indicator' of language, not a leading one. The terms mean what they are understood to mean among the body of people who use them.1 2 - 'rebadge' and 'badge engineering' are not devoid of connotation. Both terms carry negative connotation. You cannot use either term 'innocently', any more than you can use certain race/ethnic references in the US 'innocently'. When you use the term, you use it in a context that is implicitly derogatory. If your understanding of the term conflicts with the community consensus, you need to update your understanding, instead of insisting that you're being misunderstood. 3 - On THIS forum, the terms 'rebadge' and 'badge engineering' are understood to refer to only the most superficial differentiation, ranging from as little as the fascias and badges on older domestic products, to the 1st gen. MKX/Edge which shared the entire passenger cell, including the greenhouse and doors.2 I would no more argue that the Enclave is a rebadged Traverse than I would argue that a MKX is a rebadged Edge3. 1Yes, you can find an entry on at least one Oxford branded dictionary, but that definition is quite restrictive--and would even exclude the Milan from a list of badge engineered vehicles. 2The term seems to date no farther back than the 80s. A entry in the 1977 publication Automobiles of the World on the Ajax that became a Nash does not use any variant of 'badge engineering' or 'rebadge' even though this would be the earliest and perhaps the most obvious known instance of it. My personal recollection is that these are terms that were coined to describe the Chrysler/GM management of their rather abysmal mid 80s product. 3However, the Chevy Captiva is manifestly a rebadged Saturn Vue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opel_Antara#Saturn_Vue Edited March 11, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 MKC and Escape share a platform, but MKC widens the track, gets a different suspension, unique engine (2.3L), unique top hat including roof and doors, unique sheetmetal, unique interior components. Put them side by side and you wouldn't think they were related other than overall size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 And this notion that you can't build luxury cars in the same plant as mass market vehicles is silly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 And this notion that you can't build luxury cars in the same plant as mass market vehicles is silly. hasn't Toyota been doing that in Japan with Lexus? What about Honda with Acura? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 hasn't Toyota been doing that in Japan with Lexus? What about Honda with Acura? Annekr would probably not consider those Acura or Lexus models to be luxury vehicles either. They have to be RWD on a bespoke platform built in a separate factory. Like his AMG. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chucky2 Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 Before MKC, which I fully agree is in no way a rebadge of Escape, what did Lincoln have? It had a Ford Fusion called the MKZ, a Ford Edge called the MKX, a Ford Taurus called the MKS, a Ford Expedition called the Navigator, and a Ford Flex called the MKT (I just threw up in my mouth a little on that last one). Were they rebadged in the strict sense of the word? No, but they were close enough IMO. Where they nice? Sure, not saying they weren't. Could they be viewed as a premium competitor to premium brands? Not really, unless you're someone who is buying on the low end of premium - perhaps that's what Ford was going for? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 11, 2015 Share Posted March 11, 2015 a Ford Flex called the MKT Calling the MKT a rebadged Flex is ridiculous. There's more commonality between the Traverse and the Enclave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 (edited) Before MKC, which I fully agree is in no way a rebadge of Escape, what did Lincoln have? It had a Ford Fusion called the MKZ, a Ford Edge called the MKX, a Ford Taurus called the MKS, a Ford Expedition called the Navigator, and a Ford Flex called the MKT (I just threw up in my mouth a little on that last one). Were they rebadged in the strict sense of the word? No, but they were close enough IMO. Where they nice? Sure, not saying they weren't. Could they be viewed as a premium competitor to premium brands? Not really, unless you're someone who is buying on the low end of premium - perhaps that's what Ford was going for? What your getting at is the degree of differentiation. While it's true that Ford was paying significant sums for differentiation betwen Lincoln models and the Ford originaors, the execution of that plan fell short of whatw as needed. . The degree of differentiation differs, Ford-Mercury was in later years restricted to different nose and tail panels/lighting and differences in interior / trim. while Ford -Lincoln was a change of sheetmetal but with a similar silhouette (under frame). In future, we can expecct to see even more differentiation between Lincolns and their Ford originators due mainly to lincoln now having its own separate styling studio. So now the two vehicles will deviate earlier in the development process. And now because of the many differences with Escape, Ford is saying that the MKC is on its own platform. Edited March 12, 2015 by jpd80 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aneekr Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 Annekr would probably not consider those Acura or Lexus models to be luxury vehicles either. I definitely agree with that assertion regarding Acura. Honda's upscale brand seems hopeless when it comes to attaining stature as a Tier 1 player in the premium car market. Even Jaguar, with its struggles as described in the original post, is ahead of them in this respect. It remains to be seen whether the new NSX truly marks a new era for Acura as a premium brand. I'm not optimistic. Infiniti is another basket case. The recently introduced Q50 completely misses the mark as a compact executive sedan, and other Infiniti models for the most part are subpar as well. The situation with Lexus is more ambiguous. The brand exhibits more effective separation from its parent company than Acura and Infiniti, and has a dedicated production line with top notch quality standards (Line 3 at the Tahara plant). Lexus' market share is notably higher than that of Acura and Infiniti. Also, Lexus LS and GS, along with certain F and F-Sport variants of the IS and RC, compete favorably in their respective segments. But the rest of the Lexus lineup is generally unimpressive, with few compelling reasons to choose those models over their Toyota branded counterparts. Meanwhile, the "big three" brands in the premium car market - Mercedes-Benz, BMW, and Audi - continue forging ahead. Competition is very intense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 12, 2015 Share Posted March 12, 2015 The rest of the Lexus lineup is what pays the bills and allows Lexus to sell the lower volume less popular models. Same for BMW and MB with the smaller, cheaper sedans, coupes and CUVs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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