PREMiERdrum Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Wait, the Caddy Lambda isn't happening? Didn't they just say they were going to make another couple crossovers? The new Cadillac crossovers are said to be Alpha, Omega, and Delta (?) based I believe. There will be no Lambda Cadillac. Yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) I just don't even. Where is the command and control in that organization? How on EARTH is Cadillac supposed to turn into a steady and reliable profit generator, if GM is just throwing money at it hand over fist? If Johan de Nysschen scoffs whenever one of his underlings mentions "ROI", then he should be demoted so far down the corporate chain of command he'd need to get authorization to buy toilet paper from GM's physical plant. It is utterly irresponsible for an executive at an industrial company of this size to be so cavalier with money. To spend money with no realistic hope of return. Someone on this forum has a Margaret Thatcher quote in his signature about "running out of other people's money." Well, Cadillac--at their current rate--is going to run out of other people's money in fairly short order. They have new product that nobody wants, they're going to launch more new product that nobody wants, and they're openly disdainful of the product that people want, and of the people who buy their product. How is this going to end well for anyone involved? Edited March 26, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 Not to mention the $12 billion GM intends spending on Cadillac in the next five years or so.. How much money is this process going to devour? I'm sure we will see some wonderful products developed, no question of that but will they be correctly marketed at a valid and defined audience of potential buyers prepared to engage these products? All that money and product but still only a tenuous connection with buyers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 The original Alpha was begun under Holden and intended as a Pontiac G6, it had a fair bit of kappa platform, mostly suspension which was changed when GM NA took over the project after 2007. I smile when reference is made to Pontiac as some of us remember what was actually on offer GMNA did not take up the Alpha project until after Pontiac was killed. what you has sitting there was Holden's Alpha plan for a Torana to be shared with Pontiac G6 that shelved when GM went BK. Camaro is an Alpha in name only, it was begun as a brownfield project to justify dumping Zeta but when you look at how many parts were changed compared to ATS and CTS, nothing apart from power train, electricals and basic suspension design and even that's heavily modified. The same thing happened with Zeta, so much was changed, it was a Zeta in name only. This is why I laugh when comparisons are drawn with Ford platform sharing, highly amortized Ford platforms are used to keep development costs down with Lincoln derivatives - relatively low cost with good ROI across more modest sales. Alpha begian as a bespoke Cadillac platform that gradually blows out budgets and when this becomes apparent, more products are drawn into the mix but the cost of true differentiation is then so high because of so many unique parts across multiple vehicles. Bottom line, these vehicles need high ATPs to get good ROI. Not saying that's a bad thing, just an awful constraint when Cadillac was expecting a lot more sales. So they was gonna let Cadillac have it's own platform again?, wow. I believe 70% of Camaro Alpha is unique to the Camaro. The savings to build Camaro at the Cadillac factory and use of platform and some parts are great but to fathom another "Sigma" project was silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted March 26, 2015 Author Share Posted March 26, 2015 The new Cadillac crossovers are said to be Alpha, Omega, and Delta (?) based I believe. There will be no Lambda Cadillac. Yet. I heard Caddy fought tooh n nail against a Lambda crossover (imo they should, the other divisions have one already ) . An Omega based crossover is to supplement Escalade and go against GL, upcoming X7, Range Rover..... . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I heard Caddy fought tooh n nail against a Lambda crossover (imo they should, the other divisions have one already ) . An Omega based crossover is to supplement Escalade and go against GL, upcoming X7, Range Rover..... . ...but the vehicle is still years away. I can appreciate their hyper-focus on a very narrow window of the market, but I can't believe how badly they screwed the pooch on luxury crossovers. And the BK wasn't to blame. A bad business plan is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I can appreciate their hyper-focus on a very narrow window of the market I can't. GM can't run Cadillac like some hobby farm and expect profitable results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I can't. GM can't run Cadillac like some hobby farm and expect profitable results. There absolutely should be a faction of people in Cadillac who fight for this vewi of what Cadillac should be. Unfortunately, they don't have anybody on the other side fighting for volume sales in larger segments, margin expectations from a reasonable volume estimate, and appealing to those who are already inclined to like their products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 So they was gonna let Cadillac have it's own platform again?, wow. I believe 70% of Camaro Alpha is unique to the Camaro. The savings to build Camaro at the Cadillac factory and use of platform and some parts are great but to fathom another "Sigma" project was silly. Approving funding for a project based on an existing platform is much easier than a clean sheet. Camaro could have easily been on its own dedicated platform and given so much tear up, the savings from using Alpha are questionable. The reason it was done was to justify both Alpha and switching Camaro form Zeta. welcome to the strange and kooky world of GM product planning and financing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 (edited) There absolutely should be a faction of people in Cadillac who fight for this vewi of what Cadillac should be. I agree with that, to a certain extent. But you should *never* give money to people who have neither an understanding nor a respect for it. People who want money simply to spend it cannot be trusted with it. Edited March 26, 2015 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PREMiERdrum Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 I agree with that, to a certain extent. But you should *never* give money to people who have neither an understanding nor a respect for it. People who want money simply to spend it cannot be trusted with it. Totally agree. A PD room full of Bob Lutz's is a quick way to go bankrupt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 (edited) Totally agree. A PD room full of Bob Lutz's is a quick way to go bankrupt. Is it more a case of a corporate willing a car brand into existence, rather than any grand scheme or plan? We will do this and become that and it will take X amount of money and Cadillac will be Y level by Z time. Don't get me wrong, I expect all products to be tip top and technically superior to anything done before the real problem for GM and Cadillac is the lack of connection with past and potential Cadillac buyers. Edited March 27, 2015 by jpd80 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted March 27, 2015 Author Share Posted March 27, 2015 ...but the vehicle is still years away. I can appreciate their hyper-focus on a very narrow window of the market, but I can't believe how badly they screwed the pooch on luxury crossovers. And the BK wasn't to blame. A bad business plan is. The Omega CUV is to launch in 2017 last I heard, that's around the time the X7 is to launch as well as the next GL. If the CUV was launched this year instead of CT6 the XTS would still be made for another 2 years (if lwb Ep2 last that long or more money to run a plant for a car that doesn't have many takers). Imo, the ATS and Alpha CUV should been to market within a year to each other. We'll actually will see the SRX replacement before the Alpha CUV. I'll agree the launch timing suck on the new Cadillacs but im glad that lineup is getting competitive . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted March 27, 2015 Share Posted March 27, 2015 Is it more a case of a corporate willing a car brand into existence, rather than any grand scheme or plan? I think it's engineering ego mainly, with far too optimistic volume estimates because they don't really understand what Cadillac buyers want or are willing to pay. And with absolutely no thought to short term cost or ROI. I think building coupes and V models and ELRs and even more expensive sedans instead of utilities and focusing on the dealership experience first is ample evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark0006 Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Some live pictures From the article: Cadillac Extends the Top of its Range with CT6 Advanced technology creates a new formula for the prestige sedan NEW YORK – Cadillac tonight held the world premiere of the 2016 CT6, elevating it to the top of its range and creating a new formula for the prestige sedan through the integration of new technologies developed to achieve dynamic performance, efficiency and agility previously unseen in large luxury cars. CT6 marks Cadillac's long-awaited return to the global prestige luxury segment, and is one of eight all-new vehicles the brand will launch by the end of the decade as part of its $12-billion product investment to expand and elevate. 19 pictures and full press release . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Remind me again what makes this better than the CTS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fuzzymoomoo Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Remind me again what makes this better than the CTS?It's bigger, and bigger means better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fgts Posted April 1, 2015 Author Share Posted April 1, 2015 Remind me again what makes this better than the CTS? Really?, a midsize vs a fullsize with a real backseat?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Remind me again what makes this better than the CTS? It's bigger, and bigger means better! Really?, a midsize vs a fullsize with a real backseat?. Theoretically, the same thing that makes the A8 better than the A6, the S-Class better than the E-Class, the 7 Series better than the 5 Series, the LS better than the GS, the Quattroporte better than the Ghibli, and the Equus better than the Genesis. Space and amenities. Of course, if you prefer smaller and more driver-focused vehicles, then none of the above applies. Many BMW fans prefer the 3 over the 5, as an example. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I had no idea CTS was the same size as the MKZ. I thought it was larger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I had no idea CTS was the same size as the MKZ. I thought it was larger. Outside, the CTS is a little more than an inch larger in length and wheelbase but not as wide. Inside, it's pretty much a wash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Which makes CTS sales even more disappointing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I will maintain, like many others here, that it's definitely not the car's fault that sales have sucked. ATS as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpd80 Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I will maintain, like many others here, that it's definitely not the car's fault that sales have sucked. ATS as well. the problem is those cars are not matched to intended buyer demographics, they are what they are, copies of 3 and 5 series competitors. GM basically divided potential CTS sales in two and more than doubled the cost of doing it. The existing customer base was cast aside while new blood buyers did not fill the void. This has been a commercial disaster, Cadillac is clinging to higher transaction prices but neatly ignores the collapse in actual sales or the expected sales in any case... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OHV 16V Posted April 2, 2015 Share Posted April 2, 2015 the problem is those cars are not matched to intended buyer demographics, they are what they are, copies of 3 and 5 series competitors. GM basically divided potential CTS sales in two and more than doubled the cost of doing it. The existing customer base was cast aside while new blood buyers did not fill the void. This has been a commercial disaster, Cadillac is clinging to higher transaction prices but neatly ignores the collapse in actual sales or the expected sales in any case... +1 And, not to mention that those claims of ATPs have to be somewhat rectified when you look at the cash incentives that had to be piled on the hoods of those cars to clear them out. Up to $17,700 in incentives for the damn ELR?(!) (Note: The Escalade is not included in my above statement as that thing is the real deal when it comes to raking in the dough) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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