New Spy Pics of Five Hundred

[matthewq4b]

Consumers don't want them. Fleets do because they are cheap and unsophisticated, which makes them easy to repair.

 

 

Any person agency or buissness that buys them is a consumer. Private citizens do not buy them due to a 15 year old body and even at that private sales of the 2 are still not bad considering how old the damn things are.

 

I mean come on we are talking about cars that 15 YEARS old that fact that sell any to private citzens at all tells you they must have something the private citizen wants.

 

 

 

 

Matthew

Edited September 2, 2006 by matthewq4b

[DearbornDerek]

You 500 supporters don't get it. Like the Panther Mafia, you have to realise that it is not how good the car is anymore. If the car doesn't have what consumers want, they will not buy. Obviously, the average consumer does not want an average looking car with average performance. Not even a "brace face" three bar grille and new engine will fix it. It goes deeper than that.

 

Would you have wanted me to get a fusion then?(joke)

I really have to say though I never considered the 500 at all. The performance and handling is way better than I was led to believe by all of the negative posts about it. Yes, it may be average looking but I don't think that would have mattered as much if Ford would just advertise it. After the people I work with checked it out the most common response was "so how come they aren't selling?". I think the car has what most consumers want, they just don't know it.

[taxman100]

Five Hundred might be an alright car, but it is not remotely an American sedan - it is some weird bastard child of Volvo and Ford, and the set up was done purely to save cash on designing a proper American sedan.

 

For the price, it is a nice package, but it is not really a Ford. Ford of North America doesn't really build automobiles anymore - it builds trucks, and merely borrows designs from overseas operations to build half-assed automobile product on the cheap.

 

I like large sedans, but this one obviously used an overseas platform that is not ideal in order to save a few bucks. None of the Big Three really build a proper large sedan, outside of the Panther, and it could use some attention paid to it after all these years of neglect.

[bystander]

Dear God, the "hack on the Five Hundred" collective is after it today!

 

1. How do you think the current car would sell if Ford hadn't abandoned its advertising?

 

2. This was always going to be a "refresh", dolts. Changing a greenhouse is expensive, and THAT greenhouse begets the biggest interior in its class.

 

3. I'd love an explanation of how a 260+ hp, awd, large, comfortable family sedan for under 30 large is a bad thing.

 

4. What kind of COMPLETE, DROOLING IDIOT looks at a spy pic and is suddenly able to forsee a car's complete specifications, market success, and buyer acceptance (or lack thereof)?

If one's entire purpose is to find new, stupid, and barely coherent ways to bitch about Ford...just go to that moroic lemon site and bitch with minds as fallow!

 

 

1. Who knows. You don't. I don't. All we know is how it sells in reality.

 

2. Changing the greenhouse is expensive, huh? So is stuffing thousands of dollars in incentives in the glove box or shutting the plant down while sales catch up with inventory. I guess they should leave the greenhouse as is because it has such a cavernous interior. Better yet, how about they design their next sedan to look like the Pope-mobile--then we'll really have kick ass interior volume (sales might be another story because people do buy on looks).

 

3. When the Five Hundred first came out, people like you were asking how a large comfortable family sedan with " more than adequate performance", awd, and decent gas mileage could be a bad thing. Well, it may not be a bad thing, but it hasn't been enough of a good thing (coupled with the frumpy styling) to sell very well, has it?

 

4. What kind of idiot has seen Ford's same ineffective actions to freshen a product over and over again (new front end, mechanical updates) and says, "yep, that should be good enough to fix what was wrong"?

Edited September 2, 2006 by bystander

[J2D]

Kick a man when he's down, then bust'em in the head with a bat. whatever you do don't let him stand up or He'll get you.

 

The 2008 Ford 500 has a new exterior look, updated interior and an all new engine. I feel that Ford has addressed all the concerns for this vehicle, yet people still complain.

 

What exactly is it that you feel Ford needs to do, to make the 500 appealing to you?

[Ralph Greene]

Would you have wanted me to get a fusion then?(joke)

I really have to say though I never considered the 500 at all. The performance and handling is way better than I was led to believe by all of the negative posts about it. Yes, it may be average looking but I don't think that would have mattered as much if Ford would just advertise it. After the people I work with checked it out the most common response was "so how come they aren't selling?". I think the car has what most consumers want, they just don't know it.

 

I agree with you.

 

BTW....if the 500/Montego are old people's cars, then why not advertise these features to "old people". It's better for "old people" even than the CV and GM.

 

Hit this demographic group squarely. Tall seats, big trunk, tremendous rear leg room, great economy...and stuff like that. And old people like plain pratical looking cars.

 

I'm 65, a auto enthusist, and obviously out of touch. I always wanted a 5 series BMW. Now that I'm able to buy one, I can't stand their looks. But loved the looks of the older models. Even the newer Japanese cars look too "busy" for my tastes.

 

I just think we need to support the 500/Montego as they are nice cars in their segments.

[SysEng]

What exactly is it that you feel Ford needs to do, to make the 500 appealing to you?

 

And this comes from the "panther mafia" which is saying something

 

Cut its weight by 500lbs, get a "hurricane" derived V6 ( either 3.8 or 4.7L as per my specs ), put in a 6F70 tranny so we're not back to the dealer for a tranny R&R at 50K, and use the styling from a 97 Continental as your baseline for a new car.

 

Interior wise, do a kluge of the current SuperDuty dash board, and make the instrument panel look like there are real "precision instruments" in there, along with ... oh I don't know the GPS unit out of an Altima...

 

Just a few places you might want to start. Otherwise, Ford seems to be doing a great job of proving me right again about another dud product. This is both not good and getting real old around here.

[RichardJensen]

Avalon sales, which are not being compared against Employee Pricing numbers from a year ago, are down about 5%. Total D3 volume was flat before July '06, and I believe that for this month and October, when D3 volume was just atrocious last year, we will see a decided improvement in D3 numbers. I expect the D3s to follow the Avalon and post a year over year decline in the 5-10% range. Not a horrific amount. When you have new product that's selling well enough to cover the decline (which Toyota generally does), it kind of comes out in the wash.

 

I also think that Ford's decision to idle Chicago during November reflects a desire to curtail the quantity of '07s that will be built, since the '07 sales year will be very short. The last thing Ford needs is a lot of '07 D3 metal sitting on the lot when the '08s arrive.

 

The D3 is also getting an all new interior. Well, not 'all new', most of the switchgear and the IP (the stuff that's Ford standard) will be carryover, but the surface materials will be new, Ford may address the width of the center console, in order to create a more "American" front cockpit, with wider spaces around the seats, etc. (I'm guessing this has been a frequently heard complaint among the people Ford wants to impress with this car). Ford will probably also dress up the IP a la the Fusion and Milan. And I don't mind a Fusion XL look, I think it's smart, very smart, when you're trying to build a brand's image. The new taillights look cool, like the Edge's.

[bystander]

The 2008 Ford 500 has a new exterior look, updated interior and an all new engine. I feel that Ford has addressed all the concerns for this vehicle, yet people still complain.

 

What exactly is it that you feel Ford needs to do, to make the 500 appealing to you?

 

 

The problem is that while the incremental differences being planned (3 bar grille, different tail treatment) may have made the original Five Hundred launch a little more successful in late 2004, they will not hit the market until mid 2007. And these minor changes will be expected to carry the vehicle (and the manufacturing capacity of Chicago Assy Plant) through at least two more years. All the while, the competition does not stand still and will introduce completely new looking product that will quickly sap the momentum of the ho-hum 2008 cosmetic changes. Experience has shown time and time again that freshenings on the cheap do not have a significant effect on swooning sales.

 

A new, lower (flatter) greenhouse would have, with the revised front end treatment, significantly altered the appearance of the car. Chicago is, I believe, supposed to have a flex body shop. Why not take advantage of that and fix the 'aw shit' that was painfully apparent when the Five Hundred debuted?

 

Those changes, along with dual exhaust tips to announce more power under the hood, are what I would have done differently.

[one2gamble]

its ugly, possibly worse.

 

Secondly, it looks as though they stole the tail lights from the new S-Class benz.

[RichardJensen]

All the while, the competition does not stand still and will introduce completely new looking product that will quickly sap the momentum of the ho-hum 2008 cosmetic changes.

What completely new looking product are you talking about?

 

The Five Hundred/Montego competition:

 

Lucerne (volume equal to LeSabre from last year, more or less)

LaCrosse

Impala

Grand Prix

Avalon

300

Charger.

 

Which of these vehicles will be 'completely new' before 2010? About when we can expect a substantially revised D3.

 

Per some plans, the Impala and Grand Prix are going RWD in 2009, which means they'll steal a drop of like a whole year on the D3s. Apart from that I've seen no radical midcycles proposed for the LXs or the Avalon.

[Guest Sixcav]

The Five Hundred/Montego competition:

 

Lucerne (volume equal to LeSabre from last year, more or less)

LaCrosse

Impala

Grand Prix

Avalon

300

Charger.

 

Why is this the only competition for the 500? Is that a rule or something? Who the fuck thinks like this when they shop for a new car? I guess no one ever felt like the 500 and the Camry were both choices to consider at the same time when shopping for a car right? Oh hell no because the Camry isn't in the same category as the 500. lol That's the kind of stupid ass thinking that gets companies like Ford into trouble to begin with. You take me for instance. When I decieded I wanted a new sports car utltimately I ended up with the new Mustang. And I'm glad of that because it's a really good car. But along the way I considered the Mitsubishi Eclipse, Dodge Startus RT, Pontiac Solstice, and even the Acura RSX type S. Now category wise none of these cars has much in common, but price wise they did. I won't get into all the details of each car, no need. But jesus guys, where does thinking come from that the 500 can only compete with the cars on Richies list and comparing to anythng not on the list is not allowed. That's just stupid. People don't buy cars that way. I looked at these spy shots and the one thing I know for sure is that it's obvious the 500 will be as resounding a failure with that body style as it is right now. It's unappealing.

[RichardJensen]

Is that a rule or something?

Yes. It is.

 

And, in fact, you can add these vehicles as well:

 

Audi A8L

Jaguar XJ8 LWB

Volkswagen Phaeton

Mercedes S-Class

BMW 7-Series

Lincoln Town Car

Cadillac DTS

Ford Crown Victoria

Mercury Grand Marquis

Rolls Royce Phantom

Edited September 2, 2006 by RichardJensen

[J2D]

All of a sudden we're all psychic's predicting the fall of the Updated 500, when no one has even seen nor driven the damn thing.

[Joe771476]

So they're basically just putting the Fusion grille on it. But I don't care what anybody says, the 500 is a sharp looking vehicle, especially in black or silver. And the Freestyle is another great looking unit, especially with the trim treatment. And here in CT I'm seeing a ton of them! And I'm still seeing a ton of Explorers. Of course, I do a lot of driving in Glastonbury CT which is Ford City. If there's 10 pickups/class 1-3 trucks in the local Mobil station, 11 of them are Fords! Get my point?

[bystander]

What completely new looking product are you talking about?

 

The Five Hundred/Montego competition:

 

Lucerne (volume equal to LeSabre from last year, more or less)

LaCrosse

Impala

Grand Prix

Avalon

300

Charger.

 

Which of these vehicles will be 'completely new' before 2010? About when we can expect a substantially revised D3.

 

Per some plans, the Impala and Grand Prix are going RWD in 2009, which means they'll steal a drop of like a whole year on the D3s. Apart from that I've seen no radical midcycles proposed for the LXs or the Avalon.

 

Well first of all, I reject your narrow list of competitors to the Five Hundred because customers shop outside of the neat little boxes marketing types like to construct to help them make sense of the world. The Camry and Accord are both competitors to the Five Hundred. Second, the Five Hundred's styling was badly dated when it launched. Its teutonic styling with continuous arching greenhouse screams 1999 VW Passat. And many competitors have already updated their products since the Five Hundred first launched, which will cause it to age not so gracefully in the coming years without more significant changes. The 2007 Camry is an example of how the competition doesn't stand still (it has a lower, sleeker greenhouse than the 2006 model by the way). The Accord is certain to be significantly redesigned well before 2010MY. The Buick Lucerne is a very competent car (like the Five Hundred), only it has much more up to date looking styling than the 1999-Passat-that-Ford-built. How well do you think those minor tweaks to the dated-when-it-launched Five Hundred will age against the much newer looking Lucerne, Camry, Avalon, and (next) Accord?

 

The 265hp 3.5L engine will help, but a revised roofline that doesn't look so 1999 would have really served to visually differentiate the 'new and improved' Five Hundred from the 'old and stodgy' Five Hundred. Cripes, even Ford execs now admit the Five Hundred was a major styling mistake. With that kind of glowing endorsement, why would anybody think the minor changes shown in the spy pics will fix it?

Edited September 2, 2006 by bystander

[Guest Sixcav]

Well first of all, I reject your narrow list of competitors to the Five Hundred because customers shop outside of the neat little boxes marketing types like to construct to help them make sense of the world.

Amen. I second that.

 

Cripes, even Ford execs now admit the Five Hundred was a major styling mistake.

 

Whoops, that's gonna be some tuff koolaid to drink Richie. lol

Edited September 2, 2006 by Sixcav

[RichardJensen]

(it has a lower, sleeker greenhouse than the 2006 model by the way).

Yeah, and worse rear seat room in exchange.

 

Funny also how this turned into a debate about cars that have been launched SINCE the Five Hundred, instead of cars being launched between spring of next year and 2010 or so.

 

Just keep shifting the point of view for the debate. Eventually you'll find one that suits your prejudice, and you can set up camp there.

 

Whoops, that's gonna be some tuff koolaid to drink Richie. lol

You find me the words 'major styling mistake' in relation to the Five Hundred, from a Ford exec., on the record.

[Guest Sixcav]

Funny also how this turned into a debate about cars that have been launched SINCE the Five Hundred, instead of cars being launched between spring of next year and 2010 or so.

 

Just keep shifting the point of view for the debate. Eventually you'll find one that suits your prejudice, and you can set up camp there.

 

 

Oh horseshit, the 500 has been an ugly ass failure from the day they first hit the lots. The debate has not shifted to anything. The point all along here has been it was ugly from jump street and these little minor body changes haven't helped it any. It was and is unappealling.

[Harley Lover]

The 265hp 3.5L engine will help, but a revised roofline that doesn't look so 1999 would have really served to visually differentiate the 'new and improved' Five Hundred from the 'old and stodgy' Five Hundred.

 

I don't think anyone would argue that a more comprehensive update would be good, but I don't think you are realistic to expect a major body change in 2 years. Can you think of any example of an auto that has had a major body change at its midcycle refresh? The closest thing I can recall is Honda's change of the rear end of the Accord in the most recent refresh, and that was not a major body change. Toyota's midcycle refreshes are always simple tail/headlight and bumper panel updates. The current Camry is a new model reskin, after 4 straight years of the previous car. Even GM did not change the sheetmetal when they performed the emergency uglyectomy of the Aztek.

 

I think this refresh of the Five Hundred is already occurring 1 year sooner than Ford's typical refresh cycle, which is good. I think they'll refresh product much sooner under the new regime from now on. I don't think we can ever expect Ford, or any other manufacturer for that matter, to make a major body change at the midcycle refresh. No one does it. <ducks for cover>

[David Johnson]

Will it still have the radio straight out of the Focus?

[RichardJensen]

Oh horseshit, the 500 has been an ugly ass failure from the day they first hit the lots. The debate has not shifted to anything. The point all along here has been it was ugly from jump street and these little minor body changes haven't helped it any. It was and is unappealling.

Wow. It's amazing how little substance there is to your blather. "from the day they first hit the lots", "ugly from jump street", "was and is unappealing".

 

What I like about all that is that you've managed to completely avoid saying anything that can be independently verified. It's all hot air. Not an ounce of support from anywhere for any of your statements.

 

Well, unless you cite yourself and other internet-enabled rejectionists as authoritative sources.

[Edstock]

Swoops and curves, Rich, swoops and curves. You know, American swoops and curves, like a first-gen Monte Carlo.

[Guest Sixcav]

Back atcha Richie. Most of your horseshit is just the typical Koolaid crowd crap. lol I think the fact that the 500 is selling like shit compared to the rest of the market is pretty much all the verification I need. The vast majority of people that I've talked too about the car think it's ugly as hell. I don't need some journalistic expert to point out the obvious. If it was so damned great than why is Ford refreshing it after only 2 selling seasons?

Edited September 2, 2006 by Sixcav

[goingincirclez]

I don't think anyone would argue that a more comprehensive update would be good, but I don't think you are realistic to expect a major body change in 2 years. Can you think of any example of an auto that has had a major body change at its midcycle refresh?

 

Going back a ways, but I still think it's relevant:

 

1977 - Baskethandle Thunderbird

1980 - Kleenexbox Thunderbrick

1983 - Aero Bird

1987 - Refined AeroBird

1989 - MN12 Thunderbird, which received minor tweaks in 1991, 94, and 96

 

It's interesting to note that Ford's fortunes ascended trought the 1980's when they weren't letting all their cars linger. Even the rest of the line receieved updates and changes with more regularity, you can see for yourself in The Standard Catalog of Ford. The stunning 1987 T-Bird restyle changed virtually ALL the sheetmetal (except the hood and doors) and was kept for only two years! (of course, then the MN12 rotted as SUVs took off, but that's another story).

 

The MN12 is a case similar to the FiveHundred. When it debuted in 1989, is was panned as being large and underpowered with the base 3.8, despite the world-class IRS and other class-leading refinements. The SC won MT car of the Year but the 3.8 was already earning a dubios rep, and the SC never had much footing. Ford rushed to cram the 5.0 in there by 1991, and the 4.6 was respectable for 1994 on (ALL-new interior for 94 also). But despite those efforts, the market turned and Ford killed them off in 1997. Of course, they weren't advertising them worth a damn and the largr body structure had long gone stale (compare to the late 70's on when no car lasted longer than 4 years)... HMMMM where have we heard this recently...

 

I hope the FiveHundred turns out differently. I'm glad that ford isn't just sitting around But as others have pointed out, the competition doesn't sit still and there's more now than 30 or even 10 years ago.

 

Maybe if the '08 FiveHundred picks up a little, it will encourage Ford to make more sweeping revisions for the next refresh. Again, I submit the 83 vs 87 T-birds: the doors and greenhouse were same/similar, yet they were clearly not the same car.