Updated product plans

[StevenJ]

"sooo.. the Ranger and Crown Vic still won't be touched?"

 

Who cares?

 

There is a small truck planned, and the 'return of big RWD cars" is overrated. Panther mafia thinks it is still the 1950's and 'real men' only want full sized RWD BOF cars. In yer dreams.

 

And some also want them to drop 'just any' b class car out of their rear end? It would be a rushed effort, like the highly overrated Yaris. Focus could get a smaller more effecient motor and that would be better than an outdated Fiesta made in Brazil.

 

Girly men like you don't seem to care...

 

Real men like us will be 300Cs and Gm's new Zeta cars until Mr. Ford gets a clue. But as it seems, Ford is getting a clue as they decided to keep the Towncar rather than ditch it.

Edited September 15, 2006 by StevenJ

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Keeping the TC was a no brainer. The front and rear can, for all practical purposes, be bolted on the LWB version of the Panther being produced at STAP. Obviously, there will be some more minor tweaks made to the frame/suspension for the whole panther line, but, at this point, I think Ford is settled to reduce the amount of uniqueness in the TC for its final years. Not a bad thing as uniqueness only sells retail, and its turning into a fleet queen for good there.

 

I like the rest of the moves, it all makes sense. The 3.7L for the MkS makes sense when you consider that its going to have more mass to move than the MkZ and thusly, will need more torque. I'm guessing that the MkS will have two engine choices, a naturally aspirated 3.7L V6 that delivers around 270 lbs of torque and around 275 HP and the twin turbo 3.5L setup that's in the 350+ hp and 350 tq range. Both are decent numbers. Looking at what its competing against:

GS300 (soon to be 350 with the IS350 V6 under the hood)

M35/45 (pushing 280 HP now, and 300 next year)

A6, 530/45?, what mercedes in in that ballpark, the E350-E500? or is it the S class? Acura RL. It is in the same ballpark as most of them, but its going to be drinking regular for that NA v6 I'm sure. Ford seems loath to produce mass production cars that "require" premium.

 

I just hope that Ford uses a different displacement for the truck version of the D35 engine so nobody can claim that the MkS uses a truck engine.

 

I'm also hoping that Ford at least makes some other modifications to the panthers when they consolidate production at STAP, at least changing to the 3V 4.6L and the 6AT. I think that that will shut up a lot of people that constantly bitch about the panthers and their powertrain (including me). While we can all dream of a 5.4L in there, its not gonna happen. Given what they want from that vehicle, the 3V 4.6L will do just fine with a 6AT behind it.

[630land]

5.4L Panthers would only happen if Saudi Arabia was the 52nd state! [#51 is England, ;-)]

[StevenJ]

Hell, I hate to keep saying this but a panther with the 3v V8 and the Explorer's six speed auto, with a modest tune, could easily pull off mid 14 quater mile times! With some more tunning, low 14s possibly high 13s. It would be a FAST car. May even hurt some Hemi sales.

Edited September 16, 2006 by StevenJ

[Roadrunner]

pretty much - plus this is an old decision - his was done back in spring when Fields cancelled the Ecosport for US.

 

Since then Ford NA has been involved in the B1 development. The product from taht should be here in 2009 CY.

Late, but better than early and crappy. NAs Silver is very crrect. Focus is cheaper, bigger and gets same mileage as most B-cars. Sure it loses money to Ford - but simply said - Ford is well positioned in the market - and is capturing sales.

 

But why is it losing money? Simply the rental fleet purchases?

 

In the give-and-take, it would be nicer to have a new Focus that makes money, or at least an old Focus that breaks even.

[156n3rd]

The B cars will not make or break the company. I'd rather see them take longer and get them done right. With the way gas prices are going down and the American public's selective short term memory, I don't think they will be that big of a draw, not to mention when it comes right down to it, a 2007 Focus gets the same MPG as the new Yaris and Verisa B-cars in a bigger car.

 

What architecture will a 2007 Focus have, it's current model iteration? Maybe you hate Toyota and maybe the Yaris isn't exactly all-new. The Versa is new/current technology with a state-of-the art cabin design. The Euro-Focus is a much better car, but everyone here (except me) just refuses to think they would work here. Bottom line, Ford must have a B car because it could target Hyundai and Kia for entry level sales. You can't tell me that those guys lose $ on each sale of their units because they're small. That's how they got into the business in the first place.

[silvrsvt]

What architecture will a 2007 Focus have, it's current model iteration?

 

 

Yes its still a current Gen C170 Focus

 

As for the B and C car debate...Ford can't automagically start importing a B-car from South America or Europe...if they did that they might wind up hurting themselfs more then helping themselfs in that deptartment. Not to mention they dont have any place they can build it...

 

As for the Yaris, whycan a heavier/more powerful car get better MPG just though a engine retune? Don't you think Toyada would have bumped up the MPG on the Yaris if they could? Hell the Focus might hit 40MPG with the next reskin, adding futher fuel to the fire that current B cars aren't worth it if you want to save $$$ on gas. Theres no reason that a small B car can't get 40 MPG or better, hell a CRX use to get 45+ MPG plus back about 15 years ago or so and was still fun to drive.

[2005GTP]

Ford's definition of new = New Interior and a New Name.

Ford's definition of updated = New Grill, New Tail Lights.

 

 

Ford's problem is they are ALWAYS late to the game with everything. They act in a reactionary mindset. The were late with DVD Navigation, Satellite Radio, cars, etc. Ford needs to stop seeing what everyone else does first before they decide to act.

 

I was listening to Mark Fields speak yesterday morning and one of the first things coming out of his mouth had to do with getting the company on track to compete with the Japanese and operate the way they do. I guess I am confused as to why it took so long for Ford to look at what Toyota and Honda have done and say, "their way works and ours doesn't." It just seems like Ford is always waiting until the last minute to do something. Then, when they do it, they get it wrong anyway. They might as well try to be the pioneers on new products and fail then to be the followers and fail.

[DCK]

30% of Ford volume is about 900k units:

 

That would be

 

E-Series: 200k units

Panthers: 150k units

Mustang: 150k units

Ranger: 100k units

Explorer, etc.: 200k units

 

Give or take....

The Panthers and the Range are dropping rapidly down the sales ladder and the ranger will already be below 100k in this year, so going foward I expect the plummet to continue for these vehicles.

 

 

We is it ford will not invest in a new ranger or a so called F-100?

 

Global B and C platform coming to US in 2009

I would guess for 2010 as 2011 model years. But hopefully your right, asap because these vehicles are desperately needed.

 

The B cars will not make or break the company. I'd rather see them take longer and get them done right. With the way gas prices are going down and the American public's selective short term memory, I don't think they will be that big of a draw, not to mention when it comes right down to it, a 2007 Focus gets the same MPG as the new Yaris and Verisa B-cars in a bigger car.

I agree and disagree. You right that the B-segment cars won't make or break a company but it just goes to show how clueless ford is(or has been, hopefully they changed) about product planning. Lacking B-segment cars may not break a company but it will sure will hurt them pretty bad and continue the notion of ford producing nothing but gas hogs. Also gas prices from now on will always be in peoples mind, just because they are taking a slight dip people aren't gonna go out buying unnessecary large suv's again, B-segment will continue to grow and grow every year with ford missing out.

 

The reskinned focus should help..............but again is it going to get a terible public perception because of its age or wll the public see it as new? At any rate it would be in fords best interest to try to come atleast close to the corolla's EPA estimate. Also the new focus will get 37mpg on highway the yaris gets 40, its the aveo it will match.

 

and is capturing sales.

As much as I wish that is the case that is the total opposite, and you know that.

 

The focus is barely selling even decently against its competitors and that is with the largest dealer network and the cheapest transaction price due to the tons of incentives and rebates thrown on the car.

 

Let's consider the following factors:

1. Ford's current B cars are midway through their current platforms lifespans

2. It is not profitable to import such a low margin vehicle from Europe at current exchange rates.

3. Questions about the suitability of current B ca powertrains for the US market, including whether they could meet PZEV standard, whether their mileage would be superior to the current Focus', and availablity of a suitable automatic transmission, i.e.one that would meet drivability, performance, and fuel economy expectations of North American cstomers.

4.Lack of a low cost Western Hemisphere manufacturing plant; Cuautitlán assembly is being upgraded but that takes time, and by the time it would be ready you're likely to have a North American B car that would be obsolete 6 months after it hit showrooms. And YOU would be complaining about how stupid Ford were to bring an obsolete model to market while the rest of the world gets a shiny new version!

It all comes down to Ford not having any brain cells that could even do decent product planning back then. Seriously ford is not going to pull themselves out of this rut that they are in with excuses, they will pull them out with product, enivitably its ford fault for poor product planning years ago on why the above would even happen if they did bring a b segment over.

 

Let's consider the following factors:

1. Ford's current B cars are midway through their current platforms lifespans

2. It is not profitable to import such a low margin vehicle from Europe at current exchange rates.

3. Questions about the suitability of current B ca powertrains for the US market, including whether they could meet PZEV standard, whether their mileage would be superior to the current Focus', and availablity of a suitable automatic transmission, i.e.one that would meet drivability, performance, and fuel economy expectations of North American cstomers.

4.Lack of a low cost Western Hemisphere manufacturing plant; Cuautitlán assembly is being upgraded but that takes time, and by the time it would be ready you're likely to have a North American B car that would be obsolete 6 months after it hit showrooms. And YOU would be complaining about how stupid Ford were to bring an obsolete model to market while the rest of the world gets a shiny new version!

It all comes down to Ford not having any brain cells that could even do decent product planning back then. Seriously ford is not going to pull themselves out of this rut that they are in with excuses, they will pull them out with product, enivitably its ford fault for poor product planning years ago on why the above would even happen if they did bring a b segment over.

 

 

 

and the Escape, which is essentially a car based SUV is from 1999. How is that too late? It competes with the CRV X-over.

Oh and look, its still the same vehicle on the market today...................

 

I love all the screaming and whining about the B cars, when they're still a small market segment AND only marginally profitable!

 

I agree that they are a way to get first-time buyers in the showroom...but the market has already blown them off previously.

Ford is a full line brand and they sure aren't lacking like it because they are abandoning segments they put crappy vehicles in that didn't sell instead of actually putting out compettive products(mini-van, ranger)

 

The B-segment cars do absolute wonders to reputation and perception as Toyota is reaping the benefits.

 

Toyota sold more B-sement cars in August than ford sold fusions, 500, and freestyles combined.

 

 

 

I love all the screaming and whining about the B cars, when they're still a small market segment AND only marginally profitable!

 

I agree that they are a way to get first-time buyers in the showroom...but the market has already blown them off previously.

Ford is a full line brand and they sure aren't lacking like it because they are abandoning segments they put crappy vehicles in that didn't sell instead of actually putting out compettive products(mini-van, ranger)

 

The B-segment cars do absolute wonders to reputation and perception as Toyota is reaping the benefits.

 

Toyota sold more B-sement cars in August than ford sold fusions, 500, and freestyles combined.

 

It would be a rushed effort, like the highly overrated Yaris.

Okay, if you haven't already proven your bias in numerous other threads you just certainly have now. The yaris isn't the best B-segment out there but it certainly wasn't rushed and is a good vehicle for the price.

 

Everything here is great news. If the Fairlane-thing is positioned as a replacement for the minivans, as well as an Explorer/Expedition alternative, the sales losses thanks to those three models will easily be made up.

See, I disagree with that completely, Ford is going back to their old mentality of one size fits all and not giving the customer a choice, when the Fairlane comes out ford with have is competing in 3 segments, the mini-van, midsize crossover and it will also be their large cross over.

 

Toyota on the other hand will have 3 vehicles competing with that one vehicle from ford which will be the Sienna, the new highlander which will be explorer size, and a large cross over to go up against the lambdas. It leaves ford out in the cold with one single vehicle.

 

The Lincoln-exclusive 3.7L V6 is good to hear. By time it debuts in 2008, it should be pushing 300-320hp with all the bells and whistles, naturally aspirated.

The problem with the MKS is Acura has already proven providing the customer with very limited options no matter how decent is a sales disaster.

 

B2 and C2, if styled right, will get Ford back into the compact game.

Yes, I agree, just wish they product planned accordingly and were launching sooner.

Edited September 16, 2006 by DCK

[waymondospiff]

The focus is barely selling even decently against its competitors and that is with the largest dealer network and the cheapest transaction price due to the tons of incentives and rebates thrown on the car.

It all comes down to Ford not having any brain cells that could even do decent product planning back then. Seriously ford is not going to pull themselves out of this rut that they are in with excuses, they will pull them out with product, enivitably its ford fault for poor product planning years ago on why the above would even happen if they did bring a b segment over.

 

I can't argue that I wish Ford had a competitive & profitable B-market car here in the US, but it's not a lack of product planning, it was a gamble that failed. Ford decided against taking the Focus upmarket with a C1-based redo in 2005 because they looked at history and saw that "cheap cars don't make money." Instead, a cheap Focus could win sales against pricier competitors, right? Like the Cavalier, Neon, Elantra, etc. which are all C-market cars competing with B-market Echos and Accents based on price. Chrysler thinks so much of this strategy that they're launching a brand new C-market car with B-market prices, the Caliber.

 

Now, in retrospect, the companies that gambled with moving C-market cars "up-market" and introducing B-market cars below are basking in the pundits glow. Cavalier became Cobalt & Aveo. Civic became '06 Civic & Fit. It was only three years ago that Toyota was getting hammered for having the Corolla & lousy Echo, nobody had heard of Scion.

 

I agree, the choice Ford made was wrong. But it wasn't without sound reasoning. I believe there is a difference between being wrong because you're stupid and being wrong because you soundly made the wrong decision. Kind of like getting partial credit in algebra because you wrote out the correct formula, you just got the wrong answer.

 

Toyota on the other hand will have 3 vehicles competing with that one vehicle from ford which will be the Sienna, the new highlander which will be explorer size, and a large cross over to go up against the lambdas. It leaves ford out in the cold with one single vehicle.

The problem with the MKS is Acura has already proven providing the customer with very limited options no matter how decent is a sales disaster.

Yes, I agree, just wish they product planned accordingly and were launching sooner.

 

Umm...in the large "move people around" category, in 2009 Toyota will have the Highlander, 4Runner, Sequoia, Sienna, and pricey Land Cruiser. Ford will have the Edge, Freestyle, "Fairlane/F-Mover", Explorer, and Expedition. Five choices from each. And I'd say exchanging the stylish Edge for the pricey Land Cruiser would equal more volume. You could swing an argument to add the Rav4, but then I'd say you have to include the Escape.

 

I agree on the MKS. I just can't see how it is going to be a winner for Lincoln. But I'm open to surprises. As I see it, at Chicago, it will have a capacity for maybe 50K units. Would it really be too much to ask Yamaha to make 10K 4.4L V8 engines a year? A low-volume, expensive V8 model would improve the MKS's halo.

 

I'll be interested to see the 2008 models next year. The 500/Montego/Freestyle are all excellent vehicles suffering from "who cares" styling inside & out. Hopefully a bit of touching here & there and the stout 3.5L will boost sales. The Focus is still one of the most fun-to-drive compacts, with an improved interior & exterior it could also see a worthwhile boost. And hopefully the Edge will exceed expectations. And the Escape, despite the odds, continues to sell well seven years after its launch...hopefully a strong dose of "Edge-ness" will keep the sales solid.

 

Scott

[Noah Harbinger]

Real men like us will be 300Cs and Gm's new Zeta cars until Mr. Ford gets a clue. But as it seems, Ford is getting a clue as they decided to keep the Towncar rather than ditch it.

 

"My Vehicle Determines My Manliness"

 

Wow, I thought he was drawing a caricature -- but you guys really are that dense, aren't you?

[StevenJ]

"My Vehicle Determines My Manliness"

 

Wow, I thought he was drawing a caricature -- but you guys really are that dense, aren't you?

 

LOL, that was sarcasm. Oh come on, if you've been on here long enough, you'd know. We aren't.... that crazzy. We are close though

[mettech]

Girly men like you don't seem to care...

 

Real men like us will be 300Cs and Gm's new Zeta cars until Mr. Ford gets a clue. But as it seems, Ford is getting a clue as they decided to keep the Towncar rather than ditch it.

 

Do you judge your manhood by the size of your ride?...

[StevenJ]

Do you judge your manhood by the size of your ride?...

 

Nooo, of course not... But the big ride does help with the laddies.... :D

[retro-man]

Nooo, of course not... But the big ride does help with the laddies.... :D

The "laddies"???

 

From Merriam Webster.com:

 

laddie

 

One entry found for laddie.

Main Entry: lad·die

Pronunciation: 'la-dE

Function: noun

: a young lad

 

Been consortin' wi' the wee bairns have we? Is that what the manly-men do then? "Hey little boy, want to go for a ride in my biiig Police car? I'll let you play with the radio."

Edited September 16, 2006 by retro-man

[RichardJensen]

Isn't it 'bairns', not 'burns'?

 

turnabout is fair play.

 

Unless you were referring to Mr. Tam o'Shanter himself.

[retro-man]

Isn't it 'bairns', not 'burns'?

 

turnabout is fair play.

 

Unless you were referring to Mr. Tam o'Shanter himself.

Thanks Richard. Corrected. Tried my best to find that on Google.

[ebritt]

The reason the B-cars have taken so long is that Ford has been in a protracted labor dispute with the Oompa-Loompas who will be building the small cars.

 

 

 

[Noah Harbinger]

LOL, that was sarcasm. Oh come on, if you've been on here long enough, you'd know. We aren't.... that crazzy. We are close though

I'm sorry -- I'm sure I've seen posts from people who WOULD, at least secretly, agree.

[RichardJensen]

The reason the B-cars have taken so long is that Ford has been in a protracted labor dispute with the Oompa-Loompas who will be building the small cars.

 

Rumor has it, the Oompa-loompas were upset about a 'glass ceiling' at Ford.

 

Apparently, no Oompa-loompa has ever been promoted to VP or officer level. This despite Ford's repeated claims that they aggressively recruit minorities.

 

There are some Oompa-loompas in Europe, that were reponsible for the backseat in the original Contour.

Edited September 16, 2006 by RichardJensen

[silvrsvt]

Toyota sold more B-sement cars in August than ford sold fusions, 500, and freestyles combined.

Ford is a full line brand and they sure aren't lacking like it because they are abandoning segments they put crappy vehicles in that didn't sell instead of actually putting out compettive products(mini-van, ranger)

 

One month of sales does not make or break a vechicle, not to mention that your compairing 4-5 b-car name plates to 2 different sized vechicles that Ford makes

 

Toyota on the other hand will have 3 vehicles competing with that one vehicle from ford which will be the Sienna, the new highlander which will be explorer size, and a large cross over to go up against the lambdas. It leaves ford out in the cold with one single vehicle.

 

So your conventently forgetting the Freestyle and Edge also? The Highlander is roughly Explorer sized as it is now.

[ebritt]

Rumor has it, the Oompa-loompas were upset about a 'glass ceiling' at Ford.

 

Apparently, no Oompa-loompa has ever been promoted to VP or officer level. This despite Ford's repeated claims that they aggressively recruit minorities.

 

There are some Oompa-loompas in Europe, that were reponsible for the backseat in the original Contour.

Wasn't there a scandle involving Oompas and fizzy gig?

[RichardJensen]

Wasn't there a scandle involving Oompas and fizzy gig?

Yeah. There was a guy selling it out the back of TCAP. Was in the Star-Trib, and then the story just disappeared.

 

Ford sold most of the Oompa loompas back to Willy Wonka a few years ago for the recipe for everlasting gobstoppers. They kept a few around, and one of them died in a factory accident, and was stuffed, and is on display over at the Henry Ford. It's a new exhibit: "One hundred years of small orange men at Ford Motor"

 

You don't want to mess with the Ooompa-loompa union, though. They're tough. Jimmy Hoffa ain't dead. He's cleaning up the Ooompa loompa locker rooms at Wayne Assembly.

[RangeRover]

Ford's definition of new = New Interior and a New Name.

Ford's definition of updated = New Grill, New Tail Lights.

Ford's problem is they are ALWAYS late to the game with everything. They act in a reactionary mindset. The were late with DVD Navigation, Satellite Radio, cars, etc. Ford needs to stop seeing what everyone else does first before they decide to act.

 

I was listening to Mark Fields speak yesterday morning and one of the first things coming out of his mouth had to do with getting the company on track to compete with the Japanese and operate the way they do. I guess I am confused as to why it took so long for Ford to look at what Toyota and Honda have done and say, "their way works and ours doesn't." It just seems like Ford is always waiting until the last minute to do something. Then, when they do it, they get it wrong anyway. They might as well try to be the pioneers on new products and fail then to be the followers and fail.

 

Ford's definition of new/updated has changed. Many models being launched now and for 2008 have been significantly revised as much as possible given the short lead time. Going forward what Ford considers new is a whole new tophat. Did you listen to Mark Fields speach? The F-150 was halted for 2 months and given a complete redesign from front to back.

 

I cannot say that Ford does not act in a reactionary mindset but that is what Ford is trying to change. Your statements point out the current flows and fails to recognize the things that Ford is doing to address them.

 

As to your last point, Ford is not just now recognizing the strengths of Toyota. For you to make this statement is pretty naive! You are too critical. When Ford started to focus on quality and improving launches did they fail? Look at the launch of the D3's and CD3's. They have revamped the product development process and it is pushing out refreshed products in 2 years...look at the D3's for example. I think when Ford wants to get it right, they do! The problem has been lack of focus and direction. You cannot pioneer when you have no product plan and products in the pipeline.

 

Oh, and I hardly think the Escape Hybrid was late to the game. Nor were the 6 speeds or the Anit-Rollover technology or the IRS and fold flat seating. OOPS I almost forgot the mustang. Point is Ford is not ALWAYS late to the party.

Edited September 17, 2006 by RangeRover

[DCK]

One month of sales does not make or break a vechicle, not to mention that your compairing 4-5 b-car name plates to 2 different sized vechicles that Ford makes

Your missing the point. The point is you say B-segment is not significant so it really doesn't bother ford and I proved that wrong, all of toyota B-segment vehicles combined outsell the fusion, 500 and freestyle. I know they are not in the same class, I just used recently released ford vehicles in big segments to show how signficant the B-segment is becoming and how it is the reason toyota is wiping the floor.

So your conventently forgetting the Freestyle and Edge also? The Highlander is roughly Explorer sized as it is now.

Let's compare:

 

The freestyle will be gone with the fairlane as they ar the same size(I'd rather see redesigned and larger) So take that out. Also the escape competes with the rav4 so those won't be listed either as they cancel each other out, also the edge will compete with a new small toyota cross over, so those will cancel eachother out.

 

Leaving the new Highlander which will be explorer size, the sienna mini-van, and a new large crossover that is supposed to be lambda size and ford with just the fairlane. Ford needs more crossovers.