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Aviator GT Order

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I understand the delay, retooling, tuning everything up, training the workers, QC, etc. But I don't understand why keeping the customers and even dealers in the dark. Allowing people to speculate, there will be no good reasons and will hurt Lincoln's reputation.

I thought Ford is trying to use the Aviator to win customers from other bands to Lincoln. Keeping everyone guessing is not the right way to do it. 

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I have to tell you this is a complete fubar by Lincoln in every respect.  Don't hand me its a new plant, retooling, etc.  I ordered an Audi SQ5 that was produced in a brand new factory in Mexico.  Everyone on the AudiWorld forums was worried about them being produced in Mexico, new plant, new workers, etc.    The only hiccup was they ran low on the larger wheel sizes that held up things by a matter of a few weeks.   The vehicle was flawless when I took delivery and everyone I know and spoke with loves their vehicle.   I grew up and my Dad bought only Fords.  Every single year at inspection time like clockwork he had a pretty sizable repair that stressed the family finances.  I remember the arguments and strain.   That ingrained in me that I would never buy an American Car, because the quality just wasn't emphasized by Detroit.  e.g. We had galvanized steel in WW2 but yet cars were still produced in the 70's that would just rust out, does that happen today, nope.   Subsequently Honda and Toyota cleaned our clocks.  Embarrassing to say the least.   I'm 51 years old and with 2 kids and decided to give Lincoln a shot for a bigger vehicle that seemed to promise quality and craftsmanship.  You can't f up the roll out of this product.  I was promised 10-12 weeks.  I special ordered a vehicle on 7/29 and nobody has a clue as to where or when the vehicle will show up.  I cancelled and my dealer said they have lost 5 special orders.    This is like Boeing with the 737 Max or Lockheed with the F-35 project.   The management teams at these companies should be fired.  I work in a company where you are accountable and there isn't a chance we would have survived this debacle.   Everyone in my office was like who the hell drives a Lincoln.   My kids are exactly the age I was remembering the arguments and constant disappointment in Ford.   Nobody in my office will venture down the road of Lincoln for sure after hearing this story.  My kids have the impression now that Lincoln/Ford don't have their shit together and they clearly don't.     You can have all the excuses you want but there is no reason that customers/dealers are left totally uninformed.   The concierge's are useless, the dealers don't know squat and that my friends tells you this company's lack of commitment to Customer Service.  The moment you forget or take for granted the customer of your product or service you are on the road to ruin.  

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10 hours ago, Wheeling said:

I understand the delay, retooling, tuning everything up, training the workers, QC, etc. But I don't understand why keeping the customers and even dealers in the dark. Allowing people to speculate, there will be no good reasons and will hurt Lincoln's reputation.

I thought Ford is trying to use the Aviator to win customers from other bands to Lincoln. Keeping everyone guessing is not the right way to do it. 

 

While I don't disagree, factory orders are a small percentage of purchases.  Most buyers are buying off the lot and completely unaware of the ordering issues.  So while it is FUBARed to some degree and shouldn't be happening, it's not going to impact a large number of customers.

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37 minutes ago, Wolfepack88 said:

 You can have all the excuses you want but there is no reason that customers/dealers are left totally uninformed.   The concierge's are useless, the dealers don't know squat and that my friends tells you this company's lack of commitment to Customer Service.  The moment you forget or take for granted the customer of your product or service you are on the road to ruin.  

 

There are reasons but none of them are good.  Ford has never been set up to cater to individual buyers.  Their processes and systems are set up to deliver huge volumes of vehicles to dealers and not set up to track individual vehicles when they deviate from the normal production process.  And they simply haven't invested the time or resources to change that probably because it affects such a small number of vehicles in the overall scheme.

 

What I would like to see them do is anytime a retail vehicle cannot be shipped directly from the assembly line to hand it over to a dedicated team to either fix it immediately or if it can't be fixed immediately, rebuild it within a week.  I would also like to see them replace a vehicle with major or multiple problems within the first 6 months no questions asked.  That would go a long way towards making Lincoln a more desirable brand for new buyers.

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Nothing going on now is normal.  Maybe they will run them down the line and call them 2021 models.  The folks I know who know, are very tight lipped right now, which just means they were threatened with their jobs.  It also means slackers know they are safe because they won't fire anyone.  Best place to find out right now is hang out around the bars and buy lots of rounds...

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8 hours ago, Wolfepack88 said:

 I ordered an Audi SQ5 that was produced in a brand new factory in Mexico.  Everyone on the AudiWorld forums was worried about them being produced in Mexico, new plant, new workers, etc.    The only hiccup was they ran low on the larger wheel sizes that held up things by a matter of a few weeks.   The vehicle was flawless when I took delivery and everyone I know and spoke with loves their vehicle.   

Uh, my Q5 is far from perfect, it has more wind noise than my F-150 and is no where as comfortable on long trips.  It has been back to the dealer for an installation error in the wheel well and a stereo that kept dumping my iPhone connection.  Ford never once told me to change my brake fluid every 10000 miles or 2 years.  I have less than 10K miles in 27 months and nearly $300 in service costs.  It is a nice local car and we are keeping it as such, but gimme a break on how great it is.  Yes, Audi does call every 6 months to ask how things are going and suggest expensive service...

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8 hours ago, Wolfepack88 said:

 I grew up and my Dad bought only Fords.  Every single year at inspection time like clockwork he had a pretty sizable repair that stressed the family finances.  I remember the arguments and strain.   That ingrained in me that I would never buy an American Car, because the quality just wasn't emphasized by Detroit.  

Me too, My Dad raced Fords in the late 50s and 60s, the reason we always owned fords was because repair parts were easy to come by and cheap.  

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8 hours ago, Wolfepack88 said:

 I was promised 10-12 weeks.  I special ordered a vehicle on 7/29 and nobody has a clue as to where or when the vehicle will show up.  I cancelled and my dealer said they have lost 5 special orders.    

Who promised?  Lincoln did not.  They (Lincoln) sent me a package in September, and it said winter of 2020, not 2019.   The dealer did not lose 5 special orders, he gained 5 retail assets that he will sell sure as the sun comes up.  

 

Finally, if you cancelled your order why are you still on the Aviator forums, some of us still believe in Ford and their employees, your sour grapes add zip to the conversation.  

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3 hours ago, mustangchief said:

Maybe they will run them down the line and call them 2021 models. 

I'd be happy with some decent end of 2020 MY incentives!

Edited by CoolScoop

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2 hours ago, mustangchief said:

 

Who promised?  Lincoln did not.  They (Lincoln) sent me a package in September, and it said winter of 2020, not 2019.   The dealer did not lose 5 special orders, he gained 5 retail assets that he will sell sure as the sun comes up.  

 

Finally, if you cancelled your order why are you still on the Aviator forums, some of us still believe in Ford and their employees, your sour grapes add zip to the conversation.  

The reason I have remained on the forum is I want to actually track and see how long this actually takes to show up.  I actually meet with the Ford C suite since my division insures their Directors and Officers via what's called D&O Insurance and I am going to bring up my actual experience when we meet to give them a perspective from a buyer.  Further when I put my professional hat on the roll out of multiple new vehicles and what appears to me to be a mismanaged process is concerning on a professional level in terms of how well run the company is.  When you lose attention to detail on scale such as this that is indicative of larger problems.    So I'm not arguing with you mustangchief, I'm relaying exactly what the dealer said to me which is they lost 5 special orders in the sense those customers cancelled.  Of course they take possession of those vehicles and will need to find replacement customers.   

 

Lincoln is aspiring to win customers from BMW, Mercedes and Audi.  I have experience with each of those manufacturers over 25 years and never have experienced something like this.  So I thought I would give some perspective to the conversation just as many people here have.  I am now locked in to see how other customer experiences turns out, because for my job its informative.  Additioanlly I am curious as to how long this vehicle actually takes to hit the dealer.  I will share that with the Ford Execs during the renewal discussion for their D&O insurance.  From a consumer standpoint, Lincoln needs to raise their game because the future of luxury car manufacturing will head towards build it customer by customer vs mass manufacturing and having dealers all over the US with rows and rows of vehicles sitting on lots.  AI and other disruptive technologies are coming fast which will change the way every industry operates.   You don't move $80k dollar vehicles like you do $30k vehicles.   If Lincoln believes that they are foolish and will have their clocks cleaned.  

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3 hours ago, mustangchief said:

 

Who promised?  Lincoln did not.  They (Lincoln) sent me a package in September, and it said winter of 2020, not 2019.   The dealer did not lose 5 special orders, he gained 5 retail assets that he will sell sure as the sun comes up.  

 

Finally, if you cancelled your order why are you still on the Aviator forums, some of us still believe in Ford and their employees, your sour grapes add zip to the conversation.  

 

Lastly, to be clear I ordered a Black Label not Black Label GT so I should have posted under a different thread, but it seems many who ordered vehicles GT or not are waiting in limbo and yes I was promised 10-12 weeks.  You are correct and you know that Lincoln didn't promise a thing, because every customer doesn't deal with Lincoln they deal with a Lincoln Dealer.  That is who promised me my vehicle in 10-12 weeks even building a little cushion from experience vs what's stated on the Lincoln Website btw.  

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53 minutes ago, Wolfepack88 said:

 

Lastly, to be clear I ordered a Black Label not Black Label GT so I should have posted under a different thread, but it seems many who ordered vehicles GT or not are waiting in limbo and yes I was promised 10-12 weeks.  You are correct and you know that Lincoln didn't promise a thing, because every customer doesn't deal with Lincoln they deal with a Lincoln Dealer.  That is who promised me my vehicle in 10-12 weeks even building a little cushion from experience vs what's stated on the Lincoln Website btw.  

Promised or expected? We ordered a Reserve 11 with specific colors/options and I was told it would take 8-12 weeks by the dealer never promised. Ours arrived, and was delivered to us within 14 weeks. It was perfect, is perfect, and the wife loves it. Sorry to hear your experience has been disappointing, hopefully for whomever is waiting their patience will pay off. , 

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15 hours ago, Wolfepack88 said:

Don't hand me its a new plant, retooling, etc.  I ordered an Audi SQ5 that was produced in a brand new factory in Mexico.  Everyone on the AudiWorld forums was worried about them being produced in Mexico, new plant, new workers, etc. 

This is an apples and oranges comparison and not at all related to what Ford faced at CAP.  Building a new plant at a new location is as easy as it gets... nothing was being produced there before so there is zero revenue loosing down time to work around.  They can take their time to insure a clean launch, including hiring and training a mostly new work force.  Ford also had successful launches with the biggest truck redesigns in history that required entirely new processes to stamp and assemble aluminum bodies.  While they retooled existing plants, it's still apples and oranges because they had multiple assembly plants and staged the retooling to maintain production.

 

Retooling a single high capacity plant that churns out the most popular SUV, while mimimizing revenue loosing down time, was an impossible task for anyone... let alone doing it on an entirely new chassis while adding an additional model that only shares the basic floor pan.  Lost revenue means lost market share, negative year over year sales reports, and upset shareholders... which drove the decision to retool the plant and launch at nearly full capacity in an astonishing 30 days.  The ONLY thing Ford could have done differently to avoid this rough launch would have been building a new plant at a new location while producing the old model, then switching over when everything is good to go (sound familiar?).  There are numerous reasons why they didn't do that... history, infrastructure, workforce, suppliers, cost, planning, politics, etc, etc.  So instead of thinking about apples and oranges... think about rocks and hard places instead!!!

Edited by CoolScoop

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19 minutes ago, CoolScoop said:

This is an apples to oranges comparison and not at all related to what Ford faced at CAP.  Building a new plant at a new location is as easy as it gets... nothing was being produced there before so there is zero revenue loosing down time to work around.  They can take their time to insure a clean launch, including hiring and training a mostly new work force.  Ford had successful launches with the biggest truck redesigns in history that required entirely new processes to stamp and assemble aluminum bodies.  While they retooled existing plants, it's still apples to oranges because they had multiple assembly plants and staged the retooling to maintain production.

 

Retooling a single high capacity plant that churns out the most popular SUV, while mimimizing revenue loosing down time, was an impossible task for anyone... let alone doing it on an entirely new chassis while adding an additional model that only shares the basic floor pan.  Lost revenue means lost market share, negative year over year sales reports, and upset shareholders... which drove the decision to retool the plant and launch at nearly full capacity in an astonishing 30 days.  The ONLY thing Ford could have done differently to avoid this rough launch would have been building a new plant at a new location while producing the old model, then switching over when everything is good to go.  There are numerous reasons why they didn't do that... history, infrastructure, workforce, suppliers, cost, planning, politics, etc, etc.

 

That's fair, perhaps they bit off more than they could chew.  With my professional hat on then if this launch was as significant in their turnaround as seem to be implied, then that decision is a questionable decision or perhaps a poor job of managing expectations.  If expectations were managed better this might have been avoided.  Having thousands of vehicles worked on after hours at another plant seems not to be the wisest picture to paint for their luxury brand.  Talking to multiple dealers in NJ they have cars they ordered as far back as April that still have not been delivered so the frustration seems to be real.  It will be interesting to see how this gets all worked out, could be a defining moment.   If as Mustangchief seems to imply the inconvenience for individual ordered cars is insignificant in the grand scheme of things then that is the road to mediocrity as a company.    Hopefully they truly have a sense of urgency about this and recognize the moment and how this could define their return to prominence or it further demonstrates Detroit hasn't learned.  

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"

On 1/14/2020 at 7:24 AM, Wolfepack88 said:

a complete fubar by Lincoln in every respect.    Every single year at inspection time like clockwork he had a pretty sizable repair that stressed the family finances.  I remember the arguments and strain.   That ingrained in me that I would never buy an American Car, because the quality just wasn't emphasized by Detroit.  e.g.   Subsequently Honda and Toyota cleaned our clocksEmbarrassing to say the least.   You can't f up the roll out of this product.  I was promised 10-12 weeks. nobody has a clue as to where or when the vehicle will show up.  I cancelled    my dealer said they have lost 5 special orders.    This is like Boeing with the 737 Max or Lockheed with the F-35 project.   The management teams at these companies should be fired.  I work in a company where you are accountable and there isn't a chance we would have survived this debacle.   Everyone in my office was like who the hell drives a Lincoln.   My kids are exactly the age I was remembering the arguments and constant disappointment in Ford.   Nobody in my office will venture down the road of Lincoln for sure after hearing this story.  My kids have the impression now that Lincoln/Ford don't have their shit together and they clearly don't.     You can have all the excuses you want but there is no reason that customers/dealers are left totally uninformed.   The concierge's are useless, the dealers don't know squat and that my friends tells you this company's lack of commitment to Customer Service.  The moment you forget or take for granted the customer of your product or service you are on the road to ruin.  

 

You joined BOV 3 days ago and just rained a tribe of useless barbs on a forum of the biggest fans of Ford/Lincoln, not to mention employees past and present here.  Ford tried to do something others would not contemplate in a complete makeover of a massive plant in a month.  Instead of looking at what went right, you are focused on what went wrong.  If your post was the single driving factor of a person deciding what vehicle to buy, people would never buy a new or used Ford product.  Thankfully, Ford/Lincoln customers are mostly Blue Collar or from the Blue Collar realm and pretty damn smart.  They understand life is not perfect and when life deals you a lemon, you make lemonade.  You do not cut the tree down and smirk at how you won't get another lemon.  There are many highly satisfied Lincoln customers with Aviators and other Lincolns.  You won't have a chance to enjoy a truly great vehicle because you like the other five threw a fit and canceled because you did not get it on your terms.  

 

This thread was started by me with the sole intent of following my order through the process with my friends on this forum, I did not post it on Audi or BMW forums even though I own one of each and my daily driver is a BMW.  When I need to tow/haul/travel I use a Ford F-150, when I feel sporty I get my Mustang or Challenger out.  If I had to give up four of my cars today, I would be driving the F-150.  When I get the Aviator, it will be the Aviator.  I spent a three day weekend with one and put on hundreds of miles.  When you get seat time, if you trust it enough to try, you will see Lincoln blew away the Europeans IMO.  A short jaunt around a dealer area doesn't count.  I think my Audi is superb around the house, but I took it on a 600 mile trip and will never again do that.  These are my opinions and just that, my opinions.  In your other replies you mentioned your "professional hat" and that it somehow qualifies your comments.  I wore a blue collar hat and then a professional hat until my retirement at 48.  My specialty was production/manufacturing.  My latter years was at the top overseeing product cradle to grave lifecycles of aircraft.  I spent time in classes with automotive production managers.  Your comment about the "Max and Lightning" kind of pisses me off, but I let it go because you obviously have arm chair manufacturing experience.  They were not my projects and many of the mistakes made at Boeing were due to greed and though I'm sad to see them go through this process they brought it on themselves.  The Lightning, where I am intimately familiar with the company is more of a corporate salesman promising what engineers said was possible before T&E.  It is an extremely capable aircraft and will be for decades to come.  All that said, manufacturing is about CPI (Continuous Process Improvement)  Ford tried something, and though I don't know specifics, they are bench marking what worked and improving what didn't.  As you said AI and BEVs are on the horizon, they guy who can win the day on factory changeover speed will win the market.  Ford is not about to spill the beans to dealers or consumers on what went right and what went wrong, these are corporate secrets they will use in the near future to improve.  Ford has innovated since the Model T and I think they are on the brink of the next big thing.  

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Mustangchief, I didn't realize the length of time of being a member has any relevance.  You posted on a public forum so I could care less if everyone is lifelong fan or not.  I'm a quality fan not  a brand loyalist.  You want to have a dialogue or not?  If you want your own personal conversation with a group of friends create your own blog.  I was giving my opinion and experience of ordering this Lincoln, admittedly not a GT, but became interested in the experiences of people on this thread because some comments  seemed to be echoing my experience.  As for pissing you off for pointing out example of the F-35 and max project,  I don't really care if you let it go or not, they are examples in my opinion of poor management, potentially greed and the failure to listen to engineers and people on the line that know what the problems really are vs the cubicle.   Did you ever read the RAND report on the F-35 and to the testimony given to the Australian parliament on the F-35, fascinating and unbelievable?   As for Boeing, do you really think its in the publics best interest to allow an aircraft manufacturer to virtually certify their own product.  It was greed and a rush to prevent a full recertification process to avoid costly pilot simulator training by essentially arguing that the aircraft was still a 737.  It's total bs and you know it if you know aerodynamics and how that changed with the engine size and positioning on that aircraft.   I digress so back on point, let me ask you a question how do you improve a company, its products or services?   You certainly don't hide from problems or only want to know the successes.  You relentlessly identify problems and tackle them.   Just because "Ford tried to do something others would not contemplate in a complete makeover of a massive plant in a month." doesn't mean it was the right decision.  Particularly  in light of having from what I understand are having a tremendous number of vehicles shipped to another plant to be fixed under outdoor tents.  I truly hope Ford/Lincoln get this right because ultimately that is great for America.   We get to Monday morning qb the decision and every company should Monday morning qb the decisions you make, because being brutally honest with yourself is how you improve your company.  

 

Lastly as for throwing a fit, do you believe its unreasonable to expect a vehicle that was ordered on July 29th to be delivered by January 15th or that the dealer or Lincoln rep would have any idea what is going on?  First year model or not.  If you do think that is unreasonable then we have a long way to go in this country towards delivering quality customer service and a superior product.  I don't lease, but for so many consumers that do and wanted to switch to Lincoln how could they possibly manage the timing?  Order their vehicle a year or more ahead.  Your implied age would tell me you are more mature than the silly insulting comments you have made.  You still have some growing up to do. If you can't handle some commentary I guess form your own personal forum.     

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My gosh you are so right? or left🙄.  Anywho, I'm not going to argue aviation with you.  I'm not going to even discuss the ordering process of autos at Ford.  The final thing I will not do is grow up, I worked too hard and sacrificed a lot in life to do as I please and play with any expensive toy I choose. 

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20 hours ago, mustangchief said:

do as I please and play with any expensive toy I choose.

Send me a PM if you ever need someone to haul away any toys you don't play with anymore... I'd be more than happy to help you declutter, LOL!!!

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My Son does a pretty good job of decluttering, but wait.  No, he always leaves something behind when he borrows...lol   

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My expired eta dates finally updated to first week of February!  I've also heard of two retail orders that returned from offsite... one shipped already and the other is awaiting shipment.  Hope yours returns soon... keep an eye on your status!

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On 1/14/2020 at 9:18 PM, Yehaman said:

Promised or expected? We ordered a Reserve 11 with specific colors/options and I was told it would take 8-12 weeks by the dealer never promised. Ours arrived, and was delivered to us within 14 weeks. It was perfect, is perfect, and the wife loves it. Sorry to hear your experience has been disappointing, hopefully for whomever is waiting their patience will pay off. , 

Out of curiosity when did you place this order?  I get the GT delays as that was communicated up front that they would be last to start being produced.   Gonna follow these vins all the way to see how long this really takes.  Wondering if Black Label for some reason is delayed due to some supply issue or extra QC on those vehicles.  

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On 1/18/2020 at 11:37 AM, Wolfepack88 said:

Out of curiosity when did you place this order?  I get the GT delays as that was communicated up front that they would be last to start being produced.   Gonna follow these vins all the way to see how long this really takes.  Wondering if Black Label for some reason is delayed due to some supply issue or extra QC on those vehicles.  

My dealer recieved its first truck load of Aviators in July and it was a mix of Reserves and Black Labels.  I posted info and photos in another thread back then after spending a good while inspecting them... fit and finish was perfect on all of them.

 

Black labels are built at the same time as all the other models, they also go down the line intermixed with Explorers.  Ford took a known gamble and tried to minimize production downtime between the outgoing 2019 models and the all new 2020 models to just 30 days.  It would have been a huge achievement if it all went as planned, but they obviously had backup plans already in place in case it didn't... because they started shipping cars to Flat Rock for QC in mass shortly after.  So then the question is why did they intentionally start production at nearly full capacity and continue cranking them out with known issues requiring QC repairs?  For the same reasons other manufactures have done it.  It doesn't make sense but in the automotive world revenue is booked when units leave the plant, not when they're sold.  This creates huge pressure to keep pumping out units and deal with initial QC issues outside of the plant.  Tesla did the same thing with the Model 3 and their tent is still being utilized to build them.  That said, the units you're tracking must be among the first 12K or so units produced.  The issues with those were being identified and addressed during that phase and if you track recent vins you'll see non-hybrids are now being shipped within days of production and beating many of those initial builds to dealers... and have been for a while.  Shortly after the plant reopened they realized that adding hybrids into the production mix was overly complicated for the main line.  So they made another astonishingly quick investment on a secondary line, at their Modification Center several blocks away, dedicated to doing final assembly of hybrids.  The new hybrid line receives painted bodies from the main plant.

Edited by CoolScoop

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5 hours ago, CoolScoop said:

My dealer recieved its first truck load of Aviators in July and it was a mix of Reserves and Black Labels.  I posted info and photos in another thread back then after spending a good while inspecting them... fit and finish was perfect on all of them.

 

Black labels are built at the same time as all the other models, they also go down the line intermixed with Explorers.  Ford took a known gamble and tried to minimize production downtime between the outgoing 2019 models and the all new 2020 models to just 30 days.  It would have been a huge achievement if it all went as planned, but they obviously had backup plans already in place in case it didn't... because they started shipping cars to Flat Rock for QC in mass shortly after.  So then the question is why did they intentially start production at nearly full capacity and continue cranking them out with known issues requiring QC repairs?  For the same reasons other manufactures have done it.  It doesn't make sense but in the automotive world revenue is booked when units leave the plant, not when they're sold.  This creates huge pressure to keep pumping out units and deal with initial QC issues outside of the plant.  Tesla did the same thing with the Model 3 and their tent is still being utilized to build them.  That said, the units you're tracking must be among the first 12K or so units produced.  The issues with those were being identified and addressed during that phase and if you track recent vins you'll see non-hybrids are now being shipped within days of production and beating many of those initial builds to dealers... and have been for a while.  Shortly after the plant reopened they realized that adding hybrids into the production mix was overly complicated for the main line.  So they made another astonishingly quick investment on a secondary line, at their Modification Center several blocks away, dedicated to do final assembly of hybrids.  The new hybrid line receives painted bodies from the main plant.

Thank you for the information.  I think I read some people actually reordered and just cancelled the original order.  That's astonishing, but perhaps effective.   

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2 hours ago, Wolfepack88 said:

Thank you for the information.  I think I read some people actually reordered and just cancelled the original order.  That's astonishing, but perhaps effective.   

Yes, and some dealers reordered on their own without being asked and in a few cases they were advised to reorder by their rep.

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On 1/9/2020 at 5:41 PM, mustangchief said:

No Change

You might want to check your status again!

Edited by CoolScoop

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