Toyotas not so easy ride

[turbo_diesel_focus]

Toyota could see bumps on road to further U.S. growth

 

http://biz.yahoo.com/cnnm/060921/092106_to...tlook.html?.v=1

[Tiberius1701]

I think it is time for the Gov't to put a financial speedbump in their path as well, ala the H-D style tariffs of the 1980's (regardless of where their vehicles are built.) and perhaps find a way to keep the Japanese auto makers and Japan from manipulating the value of the yen. Time to level the playing field.

Edited September 21, 2006 by Tiberius1701

[MGallun]

I think it is time for the Gov't to put a financial speedbump in their path as well, ala the H-D style tariffs of the 1980's (regardless of where their vehicles are built.) and perhaps find a way to keep the Japanese auto makers and Japan from manipulating the value of the yen. Time to level the playing field.

 

 

Bingo!

[jaydez]

Before the govn't steps in to block toyota, GM and esspecially Ford need to read this quote.

 

"... they're concerned with how consumer base will react to anything that change their image of perfection."

 

They need to look at how a customer would react to anyhting they do before doing it and second guess that decision if they find the customer may react unfavorably to it.

[Guest Sixcav]

This is what I mean about so many of you guys around here being so full of shit. lol

It's just hilarous to me that when some market analyst says something negative about Ford we get the whole chorus of how anaylsts don't know shit and analysts are short sighted and analysts dont' know anything about the industry because they are just bean counters. But sure as hell, when one of the so called analysts has something negative to say about Toyota its hailed as the gospel. lol

 

You guys get a big fat Zero for Objectivity!

 

What is it the article referred to? So called "Experts feel this and that about Toyota". If this was an article about Ford you guys would shred it and talk about stupid analysts that don't know anything. Just like you've all done before.

 

Now I don't know if this article is right and personally I don't much care for analysts myself. The whole thing could be pure speculation or it could be that Toyota has some ruff times ahead. It doesn't take a high priced genius to figure out that the market moves in cycles and companies will have good years and bad years.

 

And no Toyota does not need to have a government imposed "financial speedbump" just to make things fair for Ford who can't get it's act together. Much of what Toyota makes and sells here in the US is made right here in the US genius. You would just be hurting your own countrymen just to make things all nice and cozy for your little buddies over at Ford who deserve no such favorable treatment. Let Ford make competitive products or let them go the way of Plymouth. It's that simple.

Edited September 22, 2006 by Sixcav

[Roadrunner]

Mega points to Sixcav for cutting through the bullshit.

[ford-boy]

Sixcav,

Question for you. Do you think our gov should step in when S. Korea uses income tax form to monatarily penalize their own citizens if they buy an import brand? Please do not give an eloborate answer. Just say YES or NO!

[bec5150]

Sixcav did not say anything about supporting the Korean economy. But I guess since he is an objective person, he obviously is a comunist. That's usually the way it goes on this board.

 

I will say this in reference to the little S. Korea question. If our economy was restricted like the economies overseas, we would have Huffy Made in the USA bicycles that cost well over $400 and are worse than the junk you buy at the big box stores nowadays. We would still be driving gasping, underengineered, overpriced junk like the Citation and K-car and treating 100K on a car as some sort of an accomplishment.

 

I think the foreign vs domestic argument is absolute bunk at this stage. The new Hyundai are more American than the Fusion. Ford is shutting down factories and increasing produciton in Mexico while Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda are doing the opposite.

 

It blows me away why you all have this blind dedication to Ford. Seems to me you should be supporting ANY company that is ready to put food on your family's table.

 

Get this. The Ford Ranger I bought in 2002 was built at Edison, a plant that was closed down. Meanwhile, the Honda I bought in 2003 was built in England, but now is built in the US.

 

Take the UAW out of the mix, and it's pretty clear that you should support the company that is building up the US manufacturing base...and it sure ain't Ford or GM. If it wasn't for the UAW, they would move all of their production to a third world country and the only automobile workers would be the Honda and Toyota folks. The Ford company woudl sell you out for a nickel if given you the chance. Come to think of it, so woudl the UAW.

 

WAKE UP!!

[Guest Sixcav]

Holy crap bec5150, you and I ended up on the same sheet of music. Who saw that coming? Not me. We gotta keep pounding the truth into some of these guys around here man. Good post.

[ford-boy]

I don't even come close to using this board on a daily basis. I ask a simple question and I receive: arogance, rudeness, nasty insulting comments. I also have a suspicion that you two think you "know it all". Why are you two guys using this board. You should be somewhere else.

[toyboxrv]

Sixcav did not say anything about supporting the Korean economy. But I guess since he is an objective person, he obviously is a comunist. That's usually the way it goes on this board.

 

I will say this in reference to the little S. Korea question. If our economy was restricted like the economies overseas, we would have Huffy Made in the USA bicycles that cost well over $400 and are worse than the junk you buy at the big box stores nowadays. We would still be driving gasping, underengineered, overpriced junk like the Citation and K-car and treating 100K on a car as some sort of an accomplishment.

 

I think the foreign vs domestic argument is absolute bunk at this stage. The new Hyundai are more American than the Fusion. Ford is shutting down factories and increasing produciton in Mexico while Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda are doing the opposite.

 

It blows me away why you all have this blind dedication to Ford. Seems to me you should be supporting ANY company that is ready to put food on your family's table.

 

Get this. The Ford Ranger I bought in 2002 was built at Edison, a plant that was closed down. Meanwhile, the Honda I bought in 2003 was built in England, but now is built in the US.

 

Take the UAW out of the mix, and it's pretty clear that you should support the company that is building up the US manufacturing base...and it sure ain't Ford or GM. If it wasn't for the UAW, they would move all of their production to a third world country and the only automobile workers would be the Honda and Toyota folks. The Ford company woudl sell you out for a nickel if given you the chance. Come to think of it, so woudl the UAW.

 

WAKE UP!!

 

 

Everytime that someone needs to defend how American the foreign companies are, they bring up the Fusion in Mexico thing, as if that's the only vehicle Ford makes. Hyundai has one plant, while Toyota still has far fewer plants in the US than Ford. Ford sells vehicles in Canada and Mexico so it would seem logical to have some of their production there.

 

Now you need to bring up those extremely accurate content stickers on cars as if they represent all the input it takes to manufacture a car. The Duramax diesel is built in a plant in Ohio. What would you call it? How much does engineering and tooling count towards that content amount?

 

It seems like blind faith in Japanese and Korean products has people thinking that a little bit of PR makes up for a lot of reality.

[bec5150]

You all better get wise. The newest Japanese and Korean cars are DESIGNED, DEVELOPED, ENGINEERED, and BUILT in the USA. That's the vast majority of the components from the tires to the roof. Don't believe me? Go read the sticker on a Honda Accord. I aint' saying it's right or wrong, all I am saying is it's true.

 

As far as blind faith, anytime I state something that's blind or untrue, let me know. Last I checked, my truck had a blue oval on it, folks. I am the most objective guy on this board. Honda and Ford both fill my garage, both bought new, and I know the both quite well. I know the good and bad of them.

Edited September 23, 2006 by bec5150

[ford-boy]

So! Are you going to answer the question? If you were the president and your country sent 3000 cars to another country while their country sent 900,000 cars to your country, would you take some sort of action? A simple yes or no is all that is required. Would that concern you?

[toyboxrv]

You all better get wise. The newest Japanese and Korean cars are DESIGNED, DEVELOPED, ENGINEERED, and BUILT in the USA. That's the vast majority of the components from the tires to the roof. Don't believe me? Go read the sticker on a Honda Accord. I aint' saying it's right or wrong, all I am saying is it's true.

 

As far as blind faith, anytime I state something that's blind or untrue, let me know. Last I checked, my truck had a blue oval on it, folks. I am the most objective guy on this board. Honda and Ford both fill my garage, both bought new, and I know the both quite well. I know the good and bad of them.

 

The content sticker does not include the contributions of designing, developing and engineering in those numbers. If parts are designed elsewhere, with tooling made and production engineering done elsewhere and then the majority of the parts value, final machining and assembly are done in the US, then the assembly, like an engine or transmission, is considered US. Honda got into some problems a while back before NAFTA when casting Civic blocks in the US, using Japanese parts inside it, and shipping it to a Canadian plant for final assembly. Honda felt the rules called it US and that would allow it back here under the rules at the time, without tariffs. If you don't think they know how to manipulate rules, you better get wise, although I think Honda does the most to bring a variety of jobs here.

 

Toyota only claims about 1/2 of the transmissions are assembled in the US and 3/4 of the engines, so your first statement is not correct. Honda does more than Toyota for parts and assemblies. Hyundai does less. It has to be blind faith that you can believe the Japanese and Koreans do so much of their developement and production here, because it just isn't true. They have way too few employees to be able to do all that is required to go from concept to finished product. I did ask what you felt the Duramax diesel was, American or Japanese and don't see your answer. You won't find that on the sticker either.

 

Ford may be cutting white collar people and may have more designers and engineers per vehicle made, but after those cuts will still have far more of those technical people than the Japanese do. GM and Chrysler are pretty much the same. Those new hybrids and new Aisin transmissions and new engines in Toyotas are at best partly developed here by the token American staff. Toyota has a new engine facility in China and currently it can make more engines than the demand for Camrys in that market. Toyota has publically stated that some of those engines go back to Japan and some come to the US.

 

It would be nice to see a content sticker that didn't have rules created by lobbyists and truely measured total content of the vehicle. It hasn't happened yet and likely never will.

[bec5150]

Your design argument makes sense, but not just for Toyota and Honda. The 2.3 DOHC engine in my Ranger is a Mazda design. My transmission was made in Japan. My rear Axle was made in Mexico and the rear springs were made in Brazil. And all of this was assembled in a plant that's since been closed. The Ranger will be replaced, that's a fact. Wanna lay any money on where the replacement will be built?

 

I don't get into the "grey" area as one is "more" American and another is "less" American. You are correct, that no one really knows. WIth that being agreed upon by all here, how can folks in this thread make the claim that a Mexican made Fusion is, in some way, more American than a domestically built Honda or Toyota? In the same post I read that it cannot be proven, then you go on to make that claim.

[toyboxrv]

Your design argument makes sense, but not just for Toyota and Honda. The 2.3 DOHC engine in my Ranger is a Mazda design. My transmission was made in Japan. My rear Axle was made in Mexico and the rear springs were made in Brazil. And all of this was assembled in a plant that's since been closed. The Ranger will be replaced, that's a fact. Wanna lay any money on where the replacement will be built?

 

I don't get into the "grey" area as one is "more" American and another is "less" American. You are correct, that no one really knows. WIth that being agreed upon by all here, how can folks in this thread make the claim that a Mexican made Fusion is, in some way, more American than a domestically built Honda or Toyota? In the same post I read that it cannot be proven, then you go on to make that claim.

 

You're correct about the Mazda 2.3 in the Ranger and also in the Fusion, but the V6 motors in the Mazda 6 and CX-9 are from Ford. There is a lot of exchange of parts and platforms between them, that's why Ford bought an interest in them, to spread their own developement costs and Mazdas over a greater number of vehicles.

 

The automotive business is becoming more global all the time. Doesn't make sense to always single out the Fusion as a prime example of what Ford does and the Camry as an example of Toyota. There are a lot more Fords out there that are very much American and the Prius is very much not.

[bec5150]

There are a lot more Fords out there that are very much American and the Prius is very much not.

We can revisit this argument in 10 years. I am guessing the numbers may very well be reversed by then.

[ebritt]

Sixcav did not say anything about supporting the Korean economy. But I guess since he is an objective person, he obviously is a comunist. That's usually the way it goes on this board.

 

I will say this in reference to the little S. Korea question. If our economy was restricted like the economies overseas, we would have Huffy Made in the USA bicycles that cost well over $400 and are worse than the junk you buy at the big box stores nowadays. We would still be driving gasping, underengineered, overpriced junk like the Citation and K-car and treating 100K on a car as some sort of an accomplishment.

 

I think the foreign vs domestic argument is absolute bunk at this stage. The new Hyundai are more American than the Fusion. Ford is shutting down factories and increasing produciton in Mexico while Hyundai, Toyota, and Honda are doing the opposite.

 

It blows me away why you all have this blind dedication to Ford. Seems to me you should be supporting ANY company that is ready to put food on your family's table.

Get this. The Ford Ranger I bought in 2002 was built at Edison, a plant that was closed down. Meanwhile, the Honda I bought in 2003 was built in England, but now is built in the US.

 

Take the UAW out of the mix, and it's pretty clear that you should support the company that is building up the US manufacturing base...and it sure ain't Ford or GM. If it wasn't for the UAW, they would move all of their production to a third world country and the only automobile workers would be the Honda and Toyota folks. The Ford company woudl sell you out for a nickel if given you the chance. Come to think of it, so woudl the UAW.

 

WAKE UP!!

So I guess selling your soul to the devil is ok as long as there is a sandwich involved somewhere right??

[StevenJ]

We can revisit this argument in 10 years. I am guessing the numbers may very well be reversed by then.

 

I'm sure Sixcav and others appreciate your defeatist attitude...

[Guest Sixcav]

I appreciate that you guys are so jaded. lol This blind devotion to a company that doesn't give a rats ass about you is laughable to me. Ford has never done anything for me. If they make a car that I like and I figure it's worth the price I'll pay it. If not they can keep it. It's just that simple. I have no reason to worship them and pretend to myself that buying a Ford is saving America. It isn't.

[StevenJ]

I appreciate that you guys are so jaded. lol This blind devotion to a company that doesn't give a rats ass about you is laughable to me. Ford has never done anything for me. If they make a car that I like and I figure it's worth the price I'll pay it. If not they can keep it. It's just that simple. I have no reason to worship them and pretend to myself that buying a Ford is saving America. It isn't.

 

If that were true, then you wouldn't be here so often trolling. Yet you still do it. Again, no one here is saying Ford is without faults. Richie and others provide a well constructed opinion based upon fact and actual product. Then trolls like you come in, say everything will fail and the sky is falling down. Then when someone post back showing how you have certain errors in your judgement you automatically percieve us to be 'worshipers'. Personally buying a Ford, whether it be CAW, UAW, or Mexican, is more money give to the American tax dollar than any foreign manufacturer. A dollar for Ford goes towards American owned business, engineering, and manufacturing. I guess you must of fell asleep in Economics 101 and never heard of terms like "gross domestic product".

[Guest Sixcav]

I couldn't give a rats ass about the GDP. It's not my concern. My concern is to buy the vehicle I want at the price I want. Nobody in this life looks out for you except for you, and maybe your family. But certainly some company does not have your back covered man. Wake the hell up. If you want to call me a troll or whatever other silly assed names, go ahead, I'm not going to run away or get my feelings hurt. I'll be right here telling it like it is. I don't know how Richie came into this conversation since I haven't said a thing about him. But in point of fact yes Richie does worship at the Ford alter. The man has absolutely no objectivity. In his mind everything that other car companies do is just not as good as what Ford does. If they do manage to do something good he regards it as just a flash in the pan, a passing fad, a lucky stroke. He's in denial. I'm not, when the other guys do something good I say it's good. When Ford does something good I say it's good. The reverse is true also.

I can't recall anytime I ever posted the chicken little routine so save the drama for your mama ok?

Edited September 24, 2006 by Sixcav

[StevenJ]

What drama? You're the one who's crying I don't care yet you continue to bitch about it. LOL You're a funny guy!

[Guest Sixcav]

LOL, Right. The old "It's not me it's you." routine. Whatever.

[ford-boy]

Sixcav,

You have said what you came to say. Like telling us your favorite color is PINK or you scraped your knee when you were 4 years old. So what. You are simply a person that loves to argue. You could get into an arguement with a stick or a doorknob. The reason you do this is because your mommy did not give you enough attention when you were young. So here you are trying to get attention by your posts. Whenever you need a "fix" just log onto BON and throw something in the hopper. Yippee. Instant reaction and attention. I have a suggestion. Log onto the Brittany Spears Fan Club site and tell them that they are jaded, etc., blah, blah blah. You will get attention. Oh boy! You have some issues that make you come here and engage like this.