Sporko Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Blood money? Get a grip. We're talking about people buying sports cars here. Are you implying that repairing your plumbing or electricty is same as buying a car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Blood money? Get a grip. We're talking about people buying sports cars here. Are you implying that repairing your plumbing or electricty is same as buying a car? Like you said. It's all about supply and demand. When you want what you want and you don't have the skills to do it yourself, you pay. When the shoe is on the other foot, and someday it will be, remember it's "just business". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sporko Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Well, when it's about getting a fancy sports car or getting running water in your house I think we're discussing very different levels of "want/need." I would equate someone complaining that they cannot get a lower price on GT500 with someone complaining that they cannot get their hot tub installed for less. If doing without those kinds of things is a severe hardship then perhaps it's time to re-evaluate ones priorities. And so what if many people hate Ford dealerships. That doesn't make them special. You need to spend more time in real life. Many people hate Toyota dealerships. Many people hate banks. Many people hate insurance companies. Many people hate newspapers. Many people hate all kinds of things. So what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Many people hate Toyota dealerships. Not enough to stay away from them. That is what you should be concerned about. Because it concerns us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 (edited) Well, when it's about getting a fancy sports car or getting running water in your house I think we're discussing very different levels of "want/need." I would equate someone complaining that they cannot get a lower price on GT500 with someone complaining that they cannot get their hot tub installed for less. If doing without those kinds of things is a severe hardship then perhaps it's time to re-evaluate ones priorities. And so what if many people hate Ford dealerships. That doesn't make them special. You need to spend more time in real life. Many people hate Toyota dealerships. Many people hate banks. Many people hate insurance companies. Many people hate newspapers. Many people hate all kinds of things. So what? My wife loves her Honda dealership. They've never screwed us over. Let's look at your scenario, where the Ford dealer has more buyers than they have cars (which, as somebody pointed out, is just sad) Scenario One: They make some schmucks like me sit on a waiting list for 2-1/2 years, then gouge us an extra 10% or so - just because they can. End result: people who couldn't get a spot in line because there weren't enough cars leave pissed off at the lameness of it all, and buy something else - maybe, maybe not Ford. The schmucks that invested their time and hopes to find out that they're being gouged: some leave disgusted, and never come back. The rest (probably almost all) just have a little trouble sitting down for a few years, and are afraid to drop their soap in the shower for the rest of their lives. Bottom line: a near 100% piss-off rate. Scenario Two: They take names for the waiting list, then let those faithful souls who were following their product introductions - their faithful enthusiast customers - the informed among the buying public - get their cars without taking it up the poop-chute. Their loyal customers remain loyal. They are able to tell others that they love their cars and their dealer without reservation. They had a good experience. They feel special. Those who didn't make the list leave disappointed - perhaps for another dealer, another make. Bottom line: a piss-off rate well below 100%, depending on how far supply fell short of demand. Let me put it in its simplest terms: Scenario One: dissapoint some people, screw the rest. Scenario Two: dissapoint some people, please the rest. Is this rocket science? Do you need a PhD in sociology to figure this out? Edited October 28, 2006 by retro-man Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xr7g428 Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Getting back to topic of dealer markup... Refering back to my example where a dealership had 38 people wanting to buy 12 cars, I fail to see how refusing to take the extra money offered to guarantee a purchase would have benefitted the dealership. The way I see it, the dealership had two choices: 1) Refuse to take the money and tell those customers they may or may not get a car just like everybody else. This will ensure that those 2 customers will either go buy one from someone who will take their money; or they will take their chances and unless they can beat 12-in-38 odds, they will hate the dealership for denying them the car they wanted to pay for. Not much upside for the dealership. Anyone that thinks that these guys will be going around praising the dealership for its integrity doesn't know much about human nature. 2) Take their money and make these customers happy now, hoping that down the road their selective memory and lack of personal responsibility won't make them blame the dealership for accepting the money they offered. The customers are happy now and the dealership makes some extra money. Only a fool would pick option 1 if option 2 was available. Certainly nobody trying to run a retail business. How about option 3. First come first served. If WalMart, the largest, most successful retailer ever on the planet, is faced with this situation, they handle it exactly this way. And they do have this very issue to deal with on many items every year. I have seen crazed mothers that would kill for a Tickle Me Elmo. Don't tell us that WalMart couldn't charge additional dealer profit in those. The fact remains, when dealers engage in this practice, they trade their reputation for a few dollars today. So are you going to tell us why you required the $5K deposit? Probably because you were still looking for an extra $5K over that you knew wouldn't make through finance. Pretty tough to get FMCC, or anybody else, to finance ADP? It is the difference between running a business and making a sale. I used to fire sales people who cheated customers. They may take the customers money, but they also stole the companies reputation at the same time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 ^^Good post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bec5150 Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 (edited) I want to preface this with I hate the way dealerships work and the way that the whole system works. First, about the sears thing. Little known fact is..you can dicker on washer installation. Yes, you can. I have done it. I have dickered on free installation, 10% off, etc. Lowes has a big sign out front that says they will match any competitors price + 10% of the difference. So if you take the MSRP of a washer as bible, that's your bust. But let's admit one thing. If not for the bonehead customers that buy off on the dealership stuff, we, the educated buyers, couldn't get the deals we do. In fact, the best deal you can get is at the most crooked dealer you know. If you know the tricks and know what you're doing and are willing to play, you can get a HELLUVA deal. Case in point, my Ranger....this is a good one. I called Ricart Ford in Columbus OH, the most crooked dealer in the USA. He even has a page dedicated to their dealership: http://www.columbusconsumer.com/ Anyway, in 2002, I knew a couple of things. Rangers were at a dealer cost of around $9550 and they were being advertised in the Dayton area for $9995 after customer cash, rebates, etc. I called Ricart. They said "We can beat that, we'll sell you one for $8450 BUT this is the LAST DAY OF THE SALE!! Well, no auto sale ends on a Tuesday, so I knew he was trying to bate me, get me there, etc. Ok, let's play!!! I said "I'll be over today!!" I got the financing set up at my credit union, had the wife go with me, and away we went. I asked wife what color she wanted and she sayd "Gold, might make the cheap truck look expensive if it's gold." We showed, up, met the salesperson, gave him a color, and he went and got the truck. We were blown away when we discovered the damn thing even had A/C!! I checked the truck over and said "It's a deal." What happened next was one of the most challenging and, if I may say so, enjoyable 6 hours of my life because I really do love this sort of thing. I know that THEY have to make up $1200 bucks. Where, oh where, are they going to get it? It started with, after sitting for a half hour, I spent another half hour listening to one of the sales managers run over what dealers call "the menu." They even offered me fabric protection...ever see the amount of fabric on a Ranger XL? The headliner, perhaps. They failed with everything. I still have my $8450 truck. I acted very naive, but I told them "gee, I just can't afford to pay anymore for extras." Next, the finance guy got me in and he was good. I have to say that 95% of the people I know would have gotten caught by him. He ran this, that, here sign this, sign that...quick quick quick, run run run, this, that, hectic!!!! Well, he tried. I would get the piece of paper and deliberately and slowly read every one. I would ask what every piece of paper was for and make him explain it. Finally, he asked me what I was going to finance. I said "the price of the truck and I already have it set up. Please put the balance on my credit card" He said the balance was something around $2000 when the taxes and doc fee should have only been about $600-700 bucks. I an thinking (I found IT...I wanna see the PO!!) He started to frown, but picked it back up and started running again and he finally hit me with his last shot!!!...here it comes..the purchase order, which had... Anti theft etching....$850 Preparation and setup of truck....$350 Service contract............$450 Ahh...there it IS!!! I took my pen and lined those three lines out. I smiled and gave the sheet back to him. CHECKMATE!!!! From this point forward, no one at the dealership was nice to us EXCEPT for the salesperson. This guy reprinted the PO, and grumbled as he put it in front of me. Arrived at the dealership at 4PM. I left at 10PM..with a $10600 truck (REMEMBER, the $9995 trucks in Dayton didn't have air on em) for $8450. I drove the truck off the lot for $9300. So for six hours worth of BS and an hour drive, I saved a substantial amount of money. The Honda was easier. I got a lowball price from a dealer out of Chicago and went to our big "beat anyone" dealer. Showed them the price quoted in Chicago which was $300 under invoice and $500 above dealer cost. The salesperson said "we can't sell it for that" and I said "Ok, well, off to Chicago." 4 hours later I drove off in the CR-V...for the Chicago price. So if you can't beat em, JOIN EM!!! Edited October 28, 2006 by bec5150 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Funny - nobody complained when the Honda dealers were adding $500 to every sticker price on every car back in the late 80's. You had to beg a salesman to take your money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 Funny - nobody complained when the Honda dealers were adding $500 to every sticker price on every car back in the late 80's. You had to beg a salesman to take your money. Funny, Honda wasn't heading for bankruptcy at the time either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sporko Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 (edited) So are you going to tell us why you required the $5K deposit? Probably because you were still looking for an extra $5K over that you knew wouldn't make through finance. Pretty tough to get FMCC, or anybody else, to finance ADP? The $5K deposit was to separate the buyers from the dreamers. As I said earlier, there were over 100 people that wanted to be put on the list. But only 38 that were willing to put up any money. All the deposits were returned. BTW, every single GT500 sale was cash, real cash. These people didn't need to finance anything. Oh, and the 2 guys that offered $20,000 extra? One was a previous purchaser of a Ford GT and the other had purchased 4 previous Cobras and 1 Lightning. How do you think they they would feel about how their dealership loyalty was handled if they were told, "Keep your money and take your chances with everyone else?" Some of you guys can't seem to grasp the concept that if people offer to pay the money they "want" to pay the money. If someone waits on a list for a car for years to satisfy his hopes and dreams and then complains years later that the price was too high then either they simply couldn't afford that car and/or they should maybe talk to a psychologist to see about satisfying theirs hopes and dreams more inexpensively. When we are talking about buyers and sellers of non-essential items like luxury cars (we are not discussing food, health or shelter) it take two to tango. If someone believes that they are at the mercy of the big bad dealer and they have no choice but to pay what the seller wants they should take stock of their life and get some perspective. How is what some of you guys are saying here any different than someone saying, "Look at the state of Ford today, those unions screwed poor innocent Ford with their unreasonable demands." Somehow I doubt you guys would agree with that statement. Edited October 28, 2006 by Sporko Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted October 28, 2006 Share Posted October 28, 2006 How is what some of you guys are saying here any different than someone saying, "Look at the state of Ford today, those unions screwed poor innocent Ford with their unreasonable demands." Somehow I doubt you guys would agree with that statement. People still say it though. In the end, it really doesn't matter. The market will sort you guys out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OKC03Cobra Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 The $5K deposit was to separate the buyers from the dreamers. As I said earlier, there were over 100 people that wanted to be put on the list. But only 38 that were willing to put up any money. All the deposits were returned. BTW, every single GT500 sale was cash, real cash. These people didn't need to finance anything. Oh, and the 2 guys that offered $20,000 extra? One was a previous purchaser of a Ford GT and the other had purchased 4 previous Cobras and 1 Lightning. How do you think they they would feel about how their dealership loyalty was handled if they were told, "Keep your money and take your chances with everyone else?" Some of you guys can't seem to grasp the concept that if people offer to pay the money they "want" to pay the money. If someone waits on a list for a car for years to satisfy his hopes and dreams and then complains years later that the price was too high then either they simply couldn't afford that car and/or they should maybe talk to a psychologist to see about satisfying theirs hopes and dreams more inexpensively. When we are talking about buyers and sellers of non-essential items like luxury cars (we are not discussing food, health or shelter) it take two to tango. If someone believes that they are at the mercy of the big bad dealer and they have no choice but to pay what the seller wants they should take stock of their life and get some perspective. How is what some of you guys are saying here any different than someone saying, "Look at the state of Ford today, those unions screwed poor innocent Ford with their unreasonable demands." Somehow I doubt you guys would agree with that statement. It's arrrogant, obnoxious dealer attitude like this that is losing thousands of formerly loyal Ford buyers like myself. Ford hit a home run when they made an affordable muscle car like the 03/04 Cobra for enthusiasists who were willing to trade in their Cobra's every four years for the next latest and greatest Cobra. Ford then got greedy and created the Shelby. while better than the $35k MSRP 03/04, is not $10k better at $45k MSRP. And it is definitely not worth the $20k over MSRP that the dealers are demanding. The posers and dillatantes who have more money than sense have now crawled out from the woodwork and are willing to pay that amount. In the short run, the dealers make a killing but they lose the real enthusiasts who would have continued to buy the new Cobra. The posers and dillatantes will soon realize that their $65k Shelby is not a Z06 or Viper and will tire of them and sell them for $35k or less. But it will be too late for Ford and their dealers. The formerly loyal Ford perfomance enthusiasts will have purchased a Challenger or Camaro SS. And BTW you can take your hubris and stick it up your a$$. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Oh look, another satisfied customer aka golden goose. So dealers, how many more do you plan to kill today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyser Soze Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 Oh look, another satisfied customer aka golden goose. So dealers, how many more do you plan to kill today? I would worry a lot more about the customers who go away because they get shafted on warranty repairs than this issue. Honestly, how many people are serious Shelby customers anyway? The number pales in comparison with how many got screwed on the Explorer/Mountaineer/Ranger HVAC blend door failures or Windstar/Tbird/Cougar 3.8's. I'm not saying I agree with dealers adding AMV, but Ford cannot legally do anything about it. What Ford can fix is the way they handle warranty work. Most buyers are pretty reasonable about defect. We accept that they happen, but we expect them to be fixed properly the firts time, without having to fight about it. The dealers and Ford both share responsibility for this. Here's a single example (I have more if you need to hear them) of Ford doing the wrong thing. I picked up a brand new '99 Sable LS in May of '99. The dealer had dozens of them on the lot. The radio would not get any reception, so the service department looked at it. Told me the whole integrated A/C control/radio.clock assembly needed to be repaired and it would take at least 2 weeks. I informed them that I had to drive to Cincinnati from NJ in a few days and wanted the radio functional. I asked if they could just order a new part overnight. Was told no, Ford would not OK a new part when this one might be able to be repaired. Asked if they could pull one from another car and process the bad one at their leisure so I could have a radio for my trip. Again, I was told no. Best part is that the repair could not even commence until after my trip because the A/C controls are integrated and I would have no way to run the A/C or heat with a big gaping hole in the dash. Finally I asked if Ford would cover a loaner car while they fixed mine. The answer is "yes" but I can't drive it out of state. So I made a 22 hour round trip drive in a brand new car with a boom box on the passenger seat. I have had similar problems with every new Ford I have ever owned, starting with '86 Topaz. Warranty issues not taken care of promptly or the BS of, "You know how we couldn't find any problem when you were under warranty? Now that you're at 38K miles, Eureka! We've found the problem so get your checkbook out." I liked all the cars and have been a pretty loyal Ford customer for most of my life. What would have happened with a buyer who was not particularly loyal to Ford? This is a bad taste that doesn't go away. In a short time the Shelby will be largely forgotten and people will have moved on to the next hot thing. Meanwhile, the guy on this board who got stiffed with a repair bill to replace the fractured lower control arm on his Expedition will not only remember it for life, he'll tell everyone he can about it. Let's get the priorities straight here, OK? When the boat is sinking you plug the hole and bail it out first, you don't change the spark plugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retro-man Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 It's arrrogant, obnoxious dealer attitude like this that is losing thousands of formerly loyal Ford buyers like myself. Ford hit a home run when they made an affordable muscle car like the 03/04 Cobra for enthusiasists who were willing to trade in their Cobra's every four years for the next latest and greatest Cobra. Ford then got greedy and created the Shelby. while better than the $35k MSRP 03/04, is not $10k better at $45k MSRP. And it is definitely not worth the $20k over MSRP that the dealers are demanding. The posers and dillatantes who have more money than sense have now crawled out from the woodwork and are willing to pay that amount. In the short run, the dealers make a killing but they lose the real enthusiasts who would have continued to buy the new Cobra. The posers and dillatantes will soon realize that their $65k Shelby is not a Z06 or Viper and will tire of them and sell them for $35k or less. But it will be too late for Ford and their dealers. The formerly loyal Ford perfomance enthusiasts will have purchased a Challenger or Camaro SS. And BTW you can take your hubris and stick it up your a$$. Thanks. You said it for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRODMOTORS Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 (edited) LOL So you're thinking there won't be pent up demand, waiting lists, and markups on the new Camaro and Challenger when they come out, not today, not tomorrow, but years from now? There's always some sort of hot car that brings over sticker, hell years ago it was a damn PT Cruiser, now you can't give 'em away. The market will eventually drop and we'll have our Shelbys sold at or below MSRP. If that doesn't happen, then obviously the car was underpriced to begin with. :blah: Edited October 29, 2006 by DRODMOTORS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted October 29, 2006 Share Posted October 29, 2006 LOL So you're thinking there won't be pent up demand, waiting lists, and markups on the new Camaro and Challenger when they come out, not today, not tomorrow, but years from now? There's always some sort of hot car that brings over sticker, hell years ago it was a damn PT Cruiser, now you can't give 'em away. The market will eventually drop and we'll have our Shelbys sold at or below MSRP. If that doesn't happen, then obviously the car was underpriced to begin with. :blah: When it comes time to "give 'em away" where will your bread and butter buyers be? That is the question. All the rest is :blah: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRODMOTORS Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 When it comes time to "give 'em away" where will your bread and butter buyers be? That is the question. All the rest is :blah: They'll be pissing and moaning about why they can't their Challenger or Craparo at MSRP and saying "I'll show you Dodge, I'm going to go get a Mustang!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OAC_Sparky Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 They'll be pissing and moaning about why they can't their Challenger or Craparo at MSRP and saying "I'll show you Dodge, I'm going to go get a Mustang!" You wish. Look who's gaining marketshare, and who's losing it. The odds are not in your favour. But your arrogance is telling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
partsisparts Posted October 30, 2006 Share Posted October 30, 2006 Funny - nobody complained when the Honda dealers were adding $500 to every sticker price on every car back in the late 80's. You had to beg a salesman to take your money. We were adding 2K to an Accord and 1K to a Civic. Accord SE s were 4K over! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaZor Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 Interesting reading, but it sounds to me that some of guys need to go buy a few books on the art of buying a car (they have been available at least a decade and a half) and learn what the process is all about. . . as I have had many, many experiences like bec5150 relates above. But you have to have a complete understanding of everything that is going to happen once you walk in the door (at any dealer). Second, if you can't afford a car (and pay it off in 3 years) don't buy - run the one you have until you can. As has been said, people that can afford (and really relish telling every one of their friends how much they paid for it) are always going to line up to be there first. If you don't have the bank account (retirement already taken car of, etc) - then why in the hell would you even think about buying over your (financial) head. If you have to be one of the first to have xxxxxxxx and it's out of your reach, invest in some professional help. Third, I have NEVER had ANY warranties issues with Ford and I have bought well over a dozen new vehicles from them. I cannot say the same with two German manufacturers and two Japanese manufacturers - and I got a Chevy returned to the dealer - before the lemon law ever came into existence in my state. I even received a check direct from Ford reimbursing me for a replacement of an engine that was out of warranty. Did I complain and whoop and holler down at the dealer? No, I documented everything from day one (like I always do) and after I had a new engine put in (not by the dealer - I got bids), I wrote Ford a letter, sent all of the documentation and low and behold they sent me a check for the engine and installation. One friggin' letter written in a business-like manner (you can buy books on how to write a letter too for those that feel self-conscious about putting things down on paper) was all it took. The dealer was astonished when I told him many months later when I was looking for a truck for the company (I had to teach him that if he wanted the business, he needed to sharpen his pencil - but he got left out on at least a half dozen deals b4 he learned). I read all of these on-going sour-grapes type complaints and whining and it makes me wonder if anyone ever does any research in doing business and the art of negotiation and such. If you think for one minute that these types of issues don't come up with EVERY manufacturer and almost all dealers, then you are delusional. How would you deal with your Honda dealer telling you that he can't replace your tranny until a new one is sent from Japan and then wait for three (3) months with the car sitting down at the Honda dealer all the while? Not once - but twice within a little over a year! Oh, and they didn't provide replacement transportation - unless you wanted to pay (rent) for it. Before you buy a car, go to Barnes and Noble (Amazon or wherever) and buy, and read, some books on the subject. bec5150 understands it - so can you and you will save yourself money and a lot of unnecessary grief. I always sorta look forward to the little "contest" that goes on. . . because I know what they are going to do before they try and do it. I have never "lost" out on a deal and even though Ford doesn't have the vehicle(s) that I really want right now, I can wait (there's nothing wrong with the Fords that I have now - as a matter of fact they have been excellent). Hopefully, they will build some of the concepts they have had as I can see one or more that I would buy. They just need a couple of years to get reorganized as they fell into the misguided exec trap like most American corporations have since the 80s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sporko Posted October 31, 2006 Share Posted October 31, 2006 In the end, it really doesn't matter. The market will sort you guys out.As it should be. I'm willing to live with what the market dishes out. How about you? The posers and dillatantes who have more money than sense have now crawled out from the woodwork... So you've decided who is and who isn't "worthy" of buying a car? And you claim I'm showing hubris? That's rich. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OKC03Cobra Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 So you've decided who is and who isn't "worthy" of buying a car? And you claim I'm showing hubris? That's rich. That is a totally disengenuous and straw man arguement. But you already knew that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J-150 Posted November 5, 2006 Share Posted November 5, 2006 Interesting reading, but it sounds to me that some of guys need to go buy a few books on the art of buying a car now if only Ford could get a million people to read these books they may be able to stay afloat. There is a very big problem if you sell a consumer product that requires reading a 300 page book before you buy. What a great way to lose a customer. This strategy is as full of consequences as illegal dealer markups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.