What's next for "SVT"?

[Blueblood]

This is for you insiders, I don't want rumors or speculation, unless it's well founded :yup: .

 

Now the the GT500 has been out a few months, what is next? Anything? What about a new Lightning? Or a SVT version of the Fusion? Besides the Mustang Ford doesn't sell one exciting/sporty car or truck, they've gotta be doing something.. Right? I know they used the excuse that they couldn't build more than one SVT vehicle at a time when they wer working on the GT500 even though they used to have three, and Dodge somehow makes an SRT version of just about everything. So what is Ford's problem? Soon I will be in the market for a new car, Ford has nothing for me, I already own a Mustang, I want something different like a high po Focus like they get in Europe, and China, and Mexico. Or how about a high po Fusion? Or Lightning? Or Sport-Trac? Right now the only way to get a powerful and fun to drive car other than the Mustang from Ford is to go to the competition. Ford has nothing for the enthusiast, and when the time comes, I will go elsewhere, as much as it [pains me to do so, Ford put themselves in this position.

 

So, is there anything on the horizon? Or should I take my money across the street since Ford doesn't want it?

[Sizzler]

...Soon I will be in the market for a new car, Ford has nothing for me, I already own a Mustang, I want something different like a high po Focus like they get in Europe, and China, and Mexico. Or how about a high po Fusion? Or Lightning? Or Sport-Trac? Right now the only way to get a powerful and fun to drive car other than the Mustang from Ford is to go to the competition. Ford has nothing for the enthusiast, and when the time comes, I will go elsewhere, as much as it [pains me to do so, Ford put themselves in this position.

 

So, is there anything on the horizon? Or should I take my money across the street since Ford doesn't want it?

 

Here's an idea: why don't you pick the car you like from Ford, and take the money you'd pay in SVT upcharges, and have it modified (or, *gasp*, do it yourself) to your individual liking. Why pay SVT prices when there're speed shops and hot rod garages practically on every block. Talk to a tuner (you know how to talk to other people, right?). Find out where the local fart can sticker-on guy is working and take your minty fresh Ford over there.

 

What SVT does is not rocket science. There may not be performance versions of every Ford model out there, but there is CERTAINLY a large aftermarket supplier base that'll sell you whatever you (or your doer of choice) wants.

[silvrsvt]

Here's an idea: why don't you pick the car you like from Ford, and take the money you'd pay in SVT upcharges, and have it modified (or, *gasp*, do it yourself) to your individual liking. Why pay SVT prices when there're speed shops and hot rod garages practically on every block. Talk to a tuner (you know how to talk to other people, right?). Find out where the local fart can sticker-on guy is working and take your minty fresh Ford over there.

 

What SVT does is not rocket science. There may not be performance versions of every Ford model out there, but there is CERTAINLY a large aftermarket supplier base that'll sell you whatever you (or your doer of choice) wants.

 

 

Do that and have No warranty...then again with my experience with my SVT Focus, that didn't do much good either, since the thing was a POS anyways.

[NLPRacing]

Here's an idea: why don't you pick the car you like from Ford, and take the money you'd pay in SVT upcharges, and have it modified (or, *gasp*, do it yourself) to your individual liking. Why pay SVT prices when there're speed shops and hot rod garages practically on every block. Talk to a tuner (you know how to talk to other people, right?). Find out where the local fart can sticker-on guy is working and take your minty fresh Ford over there.

 

What SVT does is not rocket science. There may not be performance versions of every Ford model out there, but there is CERTAINLY a large aftermarket supplier base that'll sell you whatever you (or your doer of choice) wants.

 

What would be a good foundation besides the Mustang? The Focus? The ST looks okay, but it's too old to justify the expense. How about an automatic transmission V6 Fusion, Five Hundred or Edge? Not very "sporty" to me.

 

I think the point he is trying to make, is there is nothing available besides the Mustang for the Ford performance enthusiast. How hard would it be to have a manual transmission V6 Fusion? The Mazda6 has one. I don't think Ford necessarily needs a full blown SVT version of every model, but an "ST" version of every model with a moderate appearance difference, slightly tweaked suspension, unique wheels and available manual transmission would be a good start. Kind of like the Focus ST, but more aggressive.

 

Being a Ford fan is like being a Vikings fan, always waiting for next year...

[Blueblood]

Here's an idea: why don't you pick the car you like from Ford, and take the money you'd pay in SVT upcharges, and have it modified (or, *gasp*, do it yourself) to your individual liking. Why pay SVT prices when there're speed shops and hot rod garages practically on every block. Talk to a tuner (you know how to talk to other people, right?). Find out where the local fart can sticker-on guy is working and take your minty fresh Ford over there.

 

What SVT does is not rocket science. There may not be performance versions of every Ford model out there, but there is CERTAINLY a large aftermarket supplier base that'll sell you whatever you (or your doer of choice) wants.

 

Your response was just the thing I wasn't looking for, you added nothing just jibberish, if you can't understand wehy factory performance is ideal then you don't get it.

 

You probably think the GT500 should never have been made either, just go bolt on a junkyard turbo to your V6!!

 

 

What would be a good foundation besides the Mustang? The Focus? The ST looks okay, but it's too old to justify the expense. How about an automatic transmission V6 Fusion, Five Hundred or Edge? Not very "sporty" to me.

 

I think the point he is trying to make, is there is nothing available besides the Mustang for the Ford performance enthusiast. How hard would it be to have a manual transmission V6 Fusion? The Mazda6 has one. I don't think Ford necessarily needs a full blown SVT version of every model, but an "ST" version of every model with a moderate appearance difference, slightly tweaked suspension, unique wheels and available manual transmission would be a good start. Kind of like the Focus ST, but more aggressive.

 

Being a Ford fan is like being a Vikings fan, always waiting for next year...

 

 

See, this dude understands me.. :yup:

[Sizzler]

What would be a good foundation besides the Mustang? The Focus? The ST looks okay, but it's too old to justify the expense. How about an automatic transmission V6 Fusion, Five Hundred or Edge? Not very "sporty" to me.

 

I think the point he is trying to make, is there is nothing available besides the Mustang for the Ford performance enthusiast. How hard would it be to have a manual transmission V6 Fusion? The Mazda6 has one. I don't think Ford necessarily needs a full blown SVT version of every model, but an "ST" version of every model with a moderate appearance difference, slightly tweaked suspension, unique wheels and available manual transmission would be a good start. Kind of like the Focus ST, but more aggressive.

 

 

If the Mazda6 has one (by the way, yuck), why not go to an insurance yard and pull the trans/motor combo from a rear-ended Mazda6 and transplant it? It doesn't take too much rearend damage to total one so they're probably stacking up in the yards.

 

As for "moderate appearance difference"? Hello? That's what the aftermarket lives to provide. Pick your model and brush off your credit card. "Slightly tweaked suspension"? Hello again? Jeez, what kind of weeny are you? "Unique wheels"? Are you DEAD? Go to your local Firestone/Goodyear/Sears/Flea Market/'back of any car magazine' and drown in your choices.

 

He may get you, like one Jerry Lewis fan gets another, but I just don't get what your problem is.

 

And don't give me that warranty crap. Suspension, appearance, and wheels aren't going to void any warranty. Maybe the engine transplant. But you're really not going to get anything special by doing that other than the trans. If you limit your engine mods to filters and hoses and pretty fittings, your warranty is good. I don't understand your trans issue anyway. They make chips for those too. Last I heard, a good auto is faster than a stick nowadays. Get a chip for the trans and be happy.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Factory Performance Rides take the HASSEL out of making a performance vehicle. There are those that want their fingerprint on their vehicle, and the tuner route is great for them. Then, there are those that want to walk up to a car, enjoy it for the complete package that it is, and drive away. These are two different types of consumers.

 

That being said, I think that, given the direction that Ford is PORTRAYING TO THE PUBLIC with the Ford GT now coming to the end of production with no advertised replacement, the Mustang Shelby GT 500 being as heavy as it is (and suffering the handeling penalties that brings) and the elimination of the SVT Focus for a watered down ST, as well as the assasination of the Sport Trac Adrenaline and F-150 lightning programs [How's that for a run-on?]; Ford is telling the performance minded consumer to shop elsewhere, unless you want a nostalgia muscle-car.

 

I believe that, if Ford is going to start with a performance vehicles program, then they need to approach it like DCX has with the SRT and R/T lineup. Ford needs to build an ST version of more of its vehicles. The ST versions are the low hanging fruit and could definitely help with the auto-mag comparisons. You could send the vehicle to each mag that suits its style. The ST could just be a handling retune with a mild performance upgrade for the engine (nothing more than breathing stuff). Doesn't even have to be a stick either. Then, feel out demand from that program and find the vehicles that are rather popular with enthusiasts and focus on that program for an SVT model. DCX doesn't have an SRT model for every line (mid-size sedans, minivans, PT cruiser, Dakota, aspen, and pacifica) and neither should Ford.

 

The other approach is to make performance a premium feature, i.e. Sell it under the Mercury brand. Traditionally, if you wanted the biggest engine in a platform, you had to go to Mercury in many cases. Return this practice. Make the Milan the SVT CD3. Make the Montego the SVT. L/M Dealers will provide the service that someone buying in that price range will expect. Mercury can support the higher prices that those models would command anyway. Leave the STs with Ford. In the past, the SVT dealer network was restricted as well. This is just a different kind of restriction. This could also expose the newer lincoln models to a younger buyer (especially with an SVT milan) that might appreciate them more.

 

BMW makes the M series. MErcedes makes the AMG series. Audi makes the S and RS series. No one equates those makes with bad images because of those performance models. While Honda makes the si models, and Toyota makes the XRS models of their small cars, it certainley isn't hurting their sales performance either.

 

The only arguments against doing what I suggest is that Ford is broke right now and can't afford the programs. That I get. Start slow, pick a model to concentrate on. Arguing that hte L/M dealers can't handle it is just stupid. If the dealers can't sell the cars, then they shouldn't be in business in the first place. Arguing that their limited dealer network will hurt the car is just as weak. There is no major, medium or even minor metropolitan area that doesn't have an L/M dealer conveniently nearby. And rural dealerships are often F/L/M dealers and can handle it all.

 

Arguing that Mazda should house the performance vehicles makes some sense as it better fits their brand identity, but, remember, they are still largely viewed as import by many people. There is still a large crowd out there that want domestics first.

[Max]

Factory Performance Rides take the HASSEL out of making a performance vehicle. There are those that want their fingerprint on their vehicle, and the tuner route is great for them. Then, there are those that want to walk up to a car, enjoy it for the complete package that it is, and drive away. These are two different types of consumers.

 

 

Indeed there are two sides of this argument, best exemplifed by the phrase used by the advocates of the aftermarket, "Build it, don't buy it." Other versions to include "Built, not bought." This idea is represented in any industry where there is a factory building something for mainstream, and an aftermarket for those wanting more than the mainstream. I am very familiar with this notion from the off-road scene as well as the computer scene.

 

My time split between family, work, and school is too precious to waste on tricking-out any type of vehicle or building a custom computer. I'd rather avoid wasting the time and money on the aftermarket, which is where people with no life beyond the product hang-out...that's why they want more from the product.

 

Speaking of Ford specifically, as an enthusiast, one wants a product that represents the brands equity in motorsports and racing...afterall they have over 100 years of it. Not to mention the entertainment one gets from the driving of such a vehicle, without the hassel of tending to your vehicle like it's a child or is your personally modified race car and you are a one man race team (trust me I know...). Right now, the Mustang is the only thing factory advocates can purchase to get this. Needless to say the Mustang is not for everyone.

[JZ150]

To take the "bolt on" version a step further- I would buy and have bought used SVT products. I will not buy and have not bought a car that someone has put their fingerprints on for a couple of reasons. 1. The parts used on an SVT product are easily replaced or serviced at your local friendly Ford dealer where as the after market you have to do some real work to find the parts. Hopefully they are still available. 2. When you have an issue with the after market you are stuck between a rock and a hard place to get it fixed. Hope you speed shop is still in business two years later. 3. The speed shop versions are typically used for a the sole purpose of running the heck out of the car where as the SVT version although there are "run the heck" out of it cars out there for the most part people buy them for the sake of owning it (I just sold an 03 Cobra that I bought used with only 2900 miles on it- by the way I replaced the Cobra with an 07 BMW 335i coupe- the BMW is done right- I wanted to buy a GT500 but not for $20K over sticker).

 

As for the future of SVT- I really believe the new Boss motor will dictate what is in the pipeline. After the Boss is on the market for a year we could see a Mustang, Lightning or even a Sport Trac. I for one would love to see a SE edition of the Fusion with a 6 speed manual, AWD and a hot version of the 3.5L riding low on a set of 19 or 20's. I would also like to see an Edge SE with similar Fusion hardware (auto or 6 speed would suite me fine). I don't think an SVT Edge would sell well but an SE would be cool pushing 335hp with the ability to skip to 60 in the low 6 second range.

 

In a nutshell I dont think we see any SVT products for a couple years.

[NLPRacing]

...I don't understand your trans issue anyway. They make chips for those too. Last I heard, a good auto is faster than a stick nowadays. Get a chip for the trans and be happy.

 

If you don't understand why people want manual transmissions, then you never will.

[ZanatWork]

I don't understand your trans issue anyway. They make chips for those too. Last I heard, a good auto is faster than a stick nowadays. Get a chip for the trans and be happy.

 

I gotta add myself to the "if you don't get manuals, I can't explain it" list. All I can tell you is that the right section of road and a good manual-equipped performance car is among the most sublime of experiences.

[Edstock]

Sublime, yes. Then there's the price of a new clutch. Bad enough in a RWD Mustang or Vette or pickup, but FWD sleds are ridiculously costly.

 

I'd like to see Ford get a DSG similar to VW's Borg-Warner unit, where the clutches are computer controlled, and wear is minimal, and paddle-shift.

[Blueblood]

Sublime, yes. Then there's the price of a new clutch. Bad enough in a RWD Mustang or Vette or pickup, but FWD sleds are ridiculously costly.

 

I'd like to see Ford get a DSG similar to VW's Borg-Warner unit, where the clutches are computer controlled, and wear is minimal, and paddle-shift.

 

We'd love that, but Ford is alwaus last to the party with innovation and technology, expecting a DSG from them is too much, though I think FOE is working on one, and you can be assured, they won't bring it to America since they think we all want nothing but a driving experience equal to a 1984 Granada..

[Sizzler]

We'd love that, but Ford is alwaus last to the party with innovation and technology, expecting a DSG from them is too much, though I think FOE is working on one, and you can be assured, they won't bring it to America since they think we all want nothing but a driving experience equal to a 1984 Granada..

 

 

Would you wake up? That's EXACTLY what American buyers want. Look at the numbers. For models that offer a choice between manual and automatic, automatic always wins, major hands down. Even in Europe, which was behind America in good automatics, automatics are the preferred trans, unless the motor it's attached to is so weak and/or peaky that only a manual will give any sort of 'performance' (if you can call sub-100 HP engines 'performance' engines).

 

The only people who prefer manuals are buff-book writers, people who never drive in rush hour, people who never use a cellphone, eat, or apply makeup while driving, and those people who just have to have a six inch shaft they can fondle while they drive or people who think peaky sub-100 HP engines are cool (The M's of S&M's). Otherwise, given today's level of technologically advanced automatics, you'd almost always be better off with an automatic.

[Blueblood]

Would you wake up? That's EXACTLY what American buyers want. Look at the numbers. For models that offer a choice between manual and automatic, automatic always wins, major hands down. Even in Europe, which was behind America in good automatics, automatics are the preferred trans, unless the motor it's attached to is so weak and/or peaky that only a manual will give any sort of 'performance' (if you can call sub-100 HP engines 'performance' engines).

 

 

so because most Americans are too busy doing other things to drive those of us that like manuals shouldn't even have the option? WTF is that about?

 

And who is talking about sub-100 horsepower engines but you? Especially in a thread about SVT which I'm assuming is d-e-a-d since nobody has said otherwise.

 

 

The only people who prefer manuals are buff-book writers, people who never drive in rush hour, people who never use a cellphone, eat, or apply makeup while driving, and those people who just have to have a six inch shaft they can fondle while they drive or people who think peaky sub-100 HP engines are cool (The M's of S&M's).

In other words, people that know how to drive, and those that take driving seriously.

 

You're not supposed to "use a cellphone, eat, or apply makeup while driving", that's one of the reasons we have so many traffic deaths every year because boneheads that don't know how to drive..

 

If that's what you do behind the wheel, than yea, you shouldn't have a stick, but those of us that know how to drive, should have the option.

 

 

Otherwise, given today's level of technologically advanced automatics, you'd almost always be better off with an automatic.

 

 

That's your OPINION, and what do you think a DSG is anyways??

[J2D]

That has got to be one of the most fck'd up things that I've ever seen. A corvette without a manual.

Why waste so much money on buying a sportscar then ordering it with an automatic? Where does the sports part of it come in at? What really makes it a sportscar?

THE DAMN SHIFTING IS THE CORRECT ANSWER.

[Sizzler]

That has got to be one of the most fck'd up things that I've ever seen. A corvette without a manual.

Why waste so much money on buying a sportscar then ordering it with an automatic? Where does the sports part of it come in at? What really makes it a sportscar?

THE DAMN SHIFTING IS THE CORRECT ANSWER.

 

 

You are a stone-age rock-riding lump in the tar pit. As I have been posting alllllll along: an automatic is BETTER. DUH! The sportscar bit comes in from having BOTH hands on the wheel as the car tracks straight and true, or flat and controlled through the swoopy bits. If you think 'sporty' is getting it on with a six inch shaft while you're driving, then you need to look for that action in the clubs, not on a road where there're other drivers trying to put on makeup and feed the kid in the back seat a sippy cup.

[J2D]

Automatic's are for sedans and Family haulers not true sports fans. are you suggesting replacing manuals for auto's in racing cars too. hell why not even replace paddle shifting while you're at it.

I do believe Yamaha motorcycles come with some type of auto shift now for the non-shifting crowd on their FJR model bikes. wheres the real fun in driving if you have to keep both hands on the wheel at all times? you just don't get the joy of listening to the pure power of your vehicles engine while driving in an auto. down-shifting that beast one or two gears, to make that B.... bounce is the most fun you'll ever have while using an manual tranny.

[ZanatWork]

You are a stone-age rock-riding lump in the tar pit. As I have been posting alllllll along: an automatic is BETTER. DUH! The sportscar bit comes in from having BOTH hands on the wheel as the car tracks straight and true, or flat and controlled through the swoopy bits. If you think 'sporty' is getting it on with a six inch shaft while you're driving, then you need to look for that action in the clubs, not on a road where there're other drivers trying to put on makeup and feed the kid in the back seat a sippy cup.

 

 

You're a soulless automaton with a knee-jerk jealousy of drivers with more skill. The INVOLVEMENT with the car's transmission is part of the driving experience, makes the driver more aware of revs and the usable power band, and was one more thing keeping the driver's senses involved. As more and more driving funcitons are automated, drivers are losing their skills. It seems you're for that. Scary.

 

I'd compromise at a DSG, but the enjoyment factor of a typical automatic vs. a nice manual is basically non-comparable. Borrow and MX-5 with a manual and find some twisty road-if that doesn't teach you, you're irreparably short-bus material.

[Noah Harbinger]

It's like Unix vs. Mac/Windows

[Edstock]

Shifting can be sublime.

 

That being said, automatics are better. Jim Hall proved that with his Chaparrals, with the "Torque-Crunch" automatic, courtesy of GM's skunkworks. The B-W DSG uses 2 clutches to shift from one gear to another, that are electronically activated, to accomplish what GM used tough dog-clutches to accomplish.

 

One great race I got to see was the '65 Player's 200 at Mosport. This early Can-Am race was a duel from beginning to end between Bruce McLaren and Jim Hall. Hall won. In interviews, he ran the Chaparral with both transmissions, and "I let the car tell me".

 

 

[wescoent]

Like someone mentioned here, I think SVT's return to glory will be spearheaded by the Boss V8. With the assumption that in 6.2L form, it will turn out 425hp, a 7.0L motor with some tuning will put out 500hp, which will be about right for any future SVT Mustangs and Lightnings.

 

I think the next big step SVT needs to make is a compact drivetrain for FWD/AWD models. DSG with a turbo V6 would make for a very fun Fusion and Five Hundred.

[JETSOLVER]

There was much more to SVT than just the show room traffic builders. The first years were well balanced, completly thought out machines that created a new market niche. Using select factory parts to cater to people who don't have much use for rental 4 wheel toasters. They benchmarked the M3 and did a pretty good job of making a complete car out of the rental fodder Stang. Most of the improvements found in the follow on cars where as a result of the focused thinking and problem solving used to create the SVT lines.

 

The difference was that they decided to go further than the old SVO program and turn it into a lifestyle. Product planning, marketing, and the best engineers were tasked with the cars, Ford limited the dealer body to the top 1/2 of one percent or so, based on customer service quality, trained the dealers specific sales personnel, and backed it up with after sales support(SVTOA and the track days).

 

Did it work?

 

YES! they sold 150 000 premium units to die hard repeat buyers, got tons of GREAT press, and even Ford itself said the program extended far beyond it initial scope. Fordmedia/SVT boosts company's image Every one new to Ford in the upper levels should have to read this, as it addresses so many of the current issues.

 

Not to mention the fact that every person who was even remotely interested in cars and trucks is instantly familiar with the COBRA and Lightning names and street cred.

 

And the engineering ability that the whole thing implied. I still consider the GT program a success, when measured against the fact that the same people pulled off a for real supercar as the SVT Contour and much more saleable SVT Focus with essentially the same resources. I believe the Focus was just gaining traction when they killed the program(and the Focus) and allowed Mazda's 3 to have the limelight.

 

How very typical of Ford to kill things off(SVT as well) as they seem to enjoy building market just to give it up to others to do better. Insert multiple examples here.

Edited December 11, 2006 by JETSOLVER