Michael Reynolds Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 I don't think there is any carry oversheet metal from the outgoing verison. Look at this: 08 Mariner 2006 Mariner Quite a bit of difference... We've gone through this quite a few times SVT. It is ok for Toyota to perform the exercise with the Camry, but god forbid Ford do it. Toyota is allowed to do it, because it is Toyota. Toyota consumers notice the similarities from one year to the next, but will still purchase the Camry just because. Ford does it and it is an instant failure. Coupled with mismanagement. And there you have it the sky is falling. This message board is quite the joke these days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
06StangAwesomecar Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Look, I can forgive a lot of what went into this update of the escape if they really are going to cut stickers in the same manner that they've done to other SUVs in their lineup. Limited investment for a value product. If they were going to keep the same price points, I'd definitely be waiving the new Vue in front of them saying "See, its BASE v6 has more HP and torque, likely puts up better fuel economy numbers, and, amazingly enough, has the 6 speed automatic transmission that YOU HELPED THEM DEVELOP attached to the engine. Its got a more modern look to the exterior and an interior that's fitting for its segment." However, as Saturn is pushing upscale, I won't do that to the Escape. I'll do it to the Mariner instead as its supposed to compete more in that segment. At least it doesn't look as poorly envisioned as the Tribute spy photos we saw earlier. However, compare the more direct competition to the escape. the Hyundai tuscon, the Kia Sportage, the Chevy Equinox, the Dodge Nitro (sort of, its rwd), and the C-RV. It still offers more HP and torque than any of them (save the Nitro). It offers better driving dynamics than most of them (save, perhaps the Cr-v). It gets ballpark fuel economy (save for its hybrid and the Nitro's rather poor numbers). And, its got similar fit and finish. Comparing the Escape to the Rav-4 is pointless as the Rav-4 has grown to compete more with the Highlander (what's the point in that thing now?), the Pilot, the XL-7, and any other three row crossovers you can think of. As the pricing of the RAV-4 went up with the redo, and the escape pricing will go down, they are now in different price brackets. Good post ! We've gone through this quite a few times SVT. It is ok for Toyota to perform the exercise with the Camry, but god forbid Ford do it. Toyota is allowed to do it, because it is Toyota. Toyota consumers notice the similarities from one year to the next, but will still purchase the Camry just because. Ford does it and it is an instant failure. Coupled with mismanagement. And there you have it the sky is falling. This message board is quite the joke these days. So true! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 This message board is quite the joke these days. LOL Wanna start a new one? I understand RL thought process on why he wants "Free Speech" on the Message board, its implementation leaves alot to be desired since it gets hijacked by certain people. There's no such thing as free speech without rules and the rules here are quite lacking when it comes to moderation to keep things equal. Its fine to have an opposing view point backed up with facts, but thread crapping and trolling for responses is totally different animal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCK Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 We've gone through this quite a few times SVT. It is ok for Toyota to perform the exercise with the Camry, but god forbid Ford do it. Toyota is allowed to do it, because it is Toyota. Toyota consumers notice the similarities from one year to the next, but will still purchase the Camry just because. Ford does it and it is an instant failure. Coupled with mismanagement. And there you have it the sky is falling. This message board is quite the joke these days. Oh Please, I can't believe your attitude against Ford obviousl not putting there best foot foward in the suv redesigns are that toyota did something similar with the camry. What an absolute pathetic excuse. Simple as that, they didn't even try to make the escape and mariner the best they could be.................they took the cheap road out. Complaining that toyota did it somewhat to the camry is just illogic and dumb and the main reason why ford is in their current predicament. How about we judge the escape againt its competition. What does it excell in that the competition don't do better? Anything? I honestly don't know except that with the slew of new competition the escape was left behind and now this "new" escape is simply a reskin. I want ford to succeed, not make up excuses on half ass "new" vehicles like the escape and mariner. I said the changes look good.................but it simply does not compete anymore against the competition PLAIN AND SIMPLE! It doesn't sound like people who defend these want ford to succeed because lazy efforts like they displayed here are not going to pull ford out of the ditch they spent the better part of the last decade building. That is my position...................A vehicle that doesn't compete anymore against its competition and the redesign is a losing effort due to ford simply not caring enough. Insiders say Fields was absolutely disgusted at the SUV redesigns so I have hoe these dud will be the end of the old Ford ways of doing things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 No need to google search anything when it comes to Ford, I already know their game front and back. They release some pictures to the public that show their best, top of the line, all the bells and whistles version that you pay through the ass for. But the average version of any such vehicle on the lot will have the cheap ass, watered down, blue light special version that you will still pay through the ass for. lol and exactly what auto company doesent't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Oh Please,I can't believe your attitude against Ford obviousl not putting there best foot foward in the suv redesigns are that toyota did something similar with the camry. What an absolute pathetic excuse. Simple as that, they didn't even try to make the escape and mariner the best they could be.................they took the cheap road out. Complaining that toyota did it somewhat to the camry is just illogic and dumb and the main reason why ford is in their current predicament. How about we judge the escape againt its competition. What does it excell in that the competition don't do better? Anything? I honestly don't know except that with the slew of new competition the escape was left behind and now this "new" escape is simply a reskin. I want ford to succeed, not make up excuses on half ass "new" vehicles like the escape and mariner. I said the changes look good.................but it simply does not compete anymore against the competition PLAIN AND SIMPLE! It doesn't sound like people who defend these want ford to succeed because lazy efforts like they displayed here are not going to pull ford out of the ditch they spent the better part of the last decade building. That is my position...................A vehicle that doesn't compete anymore against its competition and the redesign is a losing effort due to ford simply not caring enough. Insiders say Fields was absolutely disgusted at the SUV redesigns so I have hoe these dud will be the end of the old Ford ways of doing things. Ford wasn't trying to make a Rav-4. If you were reading above you would see that it is now in a different price bracket. Ford is trying to keep what people say they want. The Escape is a small, relatively inexpensive SUV. The Edge is the competition for those who used to go up against the excape. They did not want it to be almsot identical with similar engines, transmissions, and looks. Its meant in many ways to look like a mini expedition. The three bar grill obviously would not fit. Thats why there are two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swenson88 Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Comparing the Escape to the Rav-4 is pointless as the Rav-4 has grown to compete more with the Highlander (what's the point in that thing now?), the Pilot, the XL-7, and any other three row crossovers you can think of. As the pricing of the RAV-4 went up with the redo, and the escape pricing will go down, they are now in different price brackets. I simply don't buy this argument. We've gone over it before - they're still completely comparable. The price points match almost perfectly, it's just now the RAV4 beats the Escape in some important ways - much better powertrain and 3rd row seating. Sure the 3rd row is just for bragging rights and may fit nothing bigger than a 4yr old, but it's still there in the customers mind. Starting prices: Base Escape XLS Manual FWD $19,780 (before rebates) RAV4 base FWD $20,850 Escape Limited FWD $25,625 (before rebates) RAV4 Limited FWD $23,105 So, if Ford was getting what they wanted for the Escape there would be very little difference in price between the two. The only difference is because the public is willing to pay more for the RAV4 over the Escape. Dimensions: Escape: Height 69.7in (w/ roofrack) Width 70.1in Length 174.9in RAV4: Height 68.7in (w/ roofrack) Width 71.5in Length 181.1 (including rear-mounted spare). So, I don't think there's any basis to say that no one is comparing these two vehicles. Why wouldn't they? The problem is I think that if they do compare them many will go for the RAV4 unless their biggest motivating factor is price. Why buy a V6 Escape over a V6 RAV4? Heck, according to the EPA Toyota's V6 gets better mpg than the 4-cyl Escape. That's a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) I hate to be that guy ... but the Haters are right ... if you use the www.trudelta.com price comparison , feature-matched, the Rav4 is over $1000 cheaper ... of course, once you factor in the rebates, the Escape is over $2000 cheaper. However - the prices on the new one were not announced yet - as mentioned above - if the prices drop the way the Expy did, this might be a successful redesign - although we should ask what does it do to Ford's bottom line. Igor Edited November 30, 2006 by igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) Oh Please,I can't believe your attitude against Ford obviousl not putting there best foot foward in the suv redesigns are that toyota did something similar with the camry. What an absolute pathetic excuse. Simple as that, they didn't even try to make the escape and mariner the best they could be.................they took the cheap road out. Complaining that toyota did it somewhat to the camry is just illogic and dumb and the main reason why ford is in their current predicament. How about we judge the escape againt its competition. What does it excell in that the competition don't do better? Anything? I honestly don't know except that with the slew of new competition the escape was left behind and now this "new" escape is simply a reskin. I want ford to succeed, not make up excuses on half ass "new" vehicles like the escape and mariner. I said the changes look good.................but it simply does not compete anymore against the competition PLAIN AND SIMPLE! It doesn't sound like people who defend these want ford to succeed because lazy efforts like they displayed here are not going to pull ford out of the ditch they spent the better part of the last decade building. That is my position...................A vehicle that doesn't compete anymore against its competition and the redesign is a losing effort due to ford simply not caring enough. Insiders say Fields was absolutely disgusted at the SUV redesigns so I have hoe these dud will be the end of the old Ford ways of doing things. My rebuttle was not worded as an excuse. It was a reply to those that always seem to complain about the half-ass redesigns that Ford allegedly spews out on to the market place. It's almost as if it is OK for one company to do it, but the minute Ford attempts to try it you have those that meet it with sharp criticisim. That's all fine and dandy, but lets not sit here and sugarcoat what every other automaker does and then pawn off Ford's attempts as 'they aren't trying'. I fail to see how comparing what Toyota did with a redesign to what Ford did with a redesign is 'dumb' and 'illogical'. Explain that one. PLAIN and SIMPLE Ford is hemorraging money left and right. Do you know how much it costs to make changes that would meet the needs of those that demand MAJOR cosmetic changes (as if the Escape hadn't received enough of them)? Don't confuse what I say as some lame excuse as to why Ford does this, that, or anything else. Instead of assuming ask at what I'm getting at. Edited November 30, 2006 by Michael Reynolds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 I hate to be that guy ... but the Haters are right ... if you use the www.trudelta.com price comparison , feature-matched, the Rav4 is over $1000 cheaper ... of course, once you factor in the rebates, the Escape is over $2000 cheaper. However - the prices on the new one were not announced yet - as mentioned above - if the prices drop the way the Expy did, this might be a successful redesign - although we should ask what does it do to Ford's bottom line. Igor Keep in mind if the Prices drop down to where the rebates are, there is no addition money lost unless more rebates are applied. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wescoent Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 The RAV4's V6 is definately a force to be reckoned with in the compact SUV segment, in both power and fuel economy. But consider these points: -The Escape will probably be 1,000-2,000 cheaper comparably equipped -The CRV remains 4-cylinder only -Most RAV4s sold are 4 cylinder anyway -An upgrade to a 6-speed auto and/or 3.5L V6 would mean a huge price raise, and price out most of the Escape's customers The styling of the Escape doesn't set my world on fire, but it's suitable for the segment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 The three bar grill obviously would not fit. Thats why there are two. How are they fitting it on the tiny revamped Focus? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waymondospiff Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 PLAIN and SIMPLE Ford is hemorraging money left and right. Do you know how much it costs to make changes that would meet the needs of those that demand MAJOR cosmetic changes (as if the Escape hadn't received enough of them)? Very true. Three points however. One, if Ford is hemorraging money due to lack of buyers/high-enough transaction prices, how will doing "lesser" redesigns solve that problem? The old you've got to spend money to make money.... Two, look at the old & new Escapes and the old & new Camrys - the Camry is much more differentiated between versions. Three, Ford apparently spent money on changing all of the body stampings, raising the beltline, et cetera - why not make the vehicle look different at the same time? Those are my points. I understand what you're saying, but if you're going as far as Ford has gone, why not go all the way? And what is the reason for the old 3.0L? -An upgrade to a 6-speed auto and/or 3.5L V6 would mean a huge price raise, and price out most of the Escape's customers The styling of the Escape doesn't set my world on fire, but it's suitable for the segment. Agree on the "trucky" styling. While I wish the new Escape looked different than the old Escape I have no problem with the Escape being more truck-like than its competitors. With the Vue, 'Nox, CR-V, RAV4, etc. all being rather "swoopy" I'd guess that there is still a market for a "traditional" looking CUVs. However, the 3.5L was designed to be cheaper to build than the 3.0L...so how would that require a huge price increase? And even if there was a problem with the 3.5L, what about the 221hp Fusion 3.0L? I think either the Aisin or JV 6F should have been used, but the Jatco 5-speed would work too. I don't know the incremental costs of the various transmissions vs. the current 4-speed. But I'd argue since the competitors are using better equipment, Ford *has* to step up their game to stay competitive. Scott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZanatWork Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 I hope the Escape gets the "fixed" 3.0 that's been strongly rumored around here and more cogs in the tranny within the next year or so...because neither motor is a segment leader, and neither's the transmission. While the styling and the interior are stpes forward, the driveline doesn't offer anything to back the "tougher" exterior. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 How are they fitting it on the tiny revamped Focus? they are not - the Focus will have a 2-bar grille - sort of an evolved version of the corporate look.. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 I don't think there is any carry oversheet metal from the outgoing verison. Look at this: 08 Mariner 2006 Mariner Quite a bit of difference... you are kidding right? for a minute there I thought you were serious.... hey if anyone is interseted in a car site that actually talks about cars, and doesn't whine or attack people pm me, and i send you the link. this place is like jr high good one! We've gone through this quite a few times SVT. It is ok for Toyota to perform the exercise with the Camry, but god forbid Ford do it. Toyota is allowed to do it, because it is Toyota. Toyota consumers notice the similarities from one year to the next, but will still purchase the Camry just because. Ford does it and it is an instant failure. Coupled with mismanagement. And there you have it the sky is falling. This message board is quite the joke these days. michael...please show me where the camry looks anywhere near the previous model? Or for that matter any toyota product...they are capturing market share because they update their vehicles every 4-5 years, have a well earned reputation, putting content back into their products (unlike the mid 90's when they were decontenting due to the yen fluctation), entering new markets they have not been in before and creating new markets that did not exist 5 years ago..... but you are right about one thing....the fucking sky is falling....they have 5 years to turn this thing around and you have to remember it is not like gm, honda, toyota, nissan are just going to let up and start turning out crappy products but I do like the new escape! it's main competition is going to be from korea which is pretty sad...and their is no way in hell that this thing can stay out in the market like this until 2012 (assuming 4 years for redo's...no fing way!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Insiders say Fields was absolutely disgusted at the SUV redesigns so I have hoe these dud will be the end of the old Ford ways of doing things. that may be the best news I have seen on this site since we heard that the mks would get a V8! heh...at least it was good news for a little while! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 (edited) michael...please show me where the camry looks anywhere near the previous model? Or for that matter any toyota product...they are capturing market share because they update their vehicles every 4-5 years, have a well earned reputation, putting content back into their products (unlike the mid 90's when they were decontenting due to the yen fluctation), entering new markets they have not been in before and creating new markets that did not exist 5 years ago..... but you are right about one thing....the fucking sky is falling....they have 5 years to turn this thing around and you have to remember it is not like gm, honda, toyota, nissan are just going to let up and start turning out crappy products but I do like the new escape! it's main competition is going to be from korea which is pretty sad...and their is no way in hell that this thing can stay out in the market like this until 2012 (assuming 4 years for redo's...no fing way!) Interior RX300 v RX330/350/400h .. they are supposed to be 2 completely separate generations - yet even the interiors are extremely similar ... yet no press ever raised a single piece of fuss .. besides - it is common knowledge Camry (and Highlander/RX) are riding on a platform dating back to 1992 - sure they have updated it some over the years - BUT IT IS THE SAME PLATFORM ... Honda does similar things, when they upgrade platforms every OTHER redesign .. e.g. the last 2 generations of Civic were on the same platform - the 06 was all new ... again - noone ever points this out in the press... Igor Edited November 30, 2006 by igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Look at the roofline and overal shape of the new Camry vs. the outgoing version. Anyhow I'm not going to turn this into a what I can't stand about Toyota post, because this is about the Escape. I've yet to dismiss the fact that it doesn't look good for either the Escape or Ford's bottom line that this vehicle received carry over powertrain configurations. It's obvious that the E/M/T are at a disadvantage there, but like I've said 3 or 4 times now if these vehicles are priced accordingly you will have takers. If these vehicles addressed the quality concerns that many have had with the Escape, you will have takers. If NVH is at a level whereas it doesn't seem like your engine is full of marbles, you will have takers. Ford DOES NOT have the resources to spend on re-engineering a vehicle that really doesn't need much more power as is. As far as looks are concerned, those are subjective and quite honestly if the Escape was never your cup of tea then why on earth would Ford cater to your styling demands in the first place. Cute-utes as we know them have changed in one corner you have the CRV and in the other you have the RAV4, smack dab in the middle is the Escape. Again with this vehicle it is going to come down to price. Until Ford releases official pricing, I'll hold off any further judgement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Detnews reports Ford says the Escape will be priced lower than it presently is. At $17.5-$18.5 it looks a much better deal than almost $20k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kyle Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Interior RX300 v RX330/350/400h .. they are supposed to be 2 completely separate generations - yet even the interiors are extremely similar ... yet no press ever raised a single piece of fuss .. besides - it is common knowledge Camry (and Highlander/RX) are riding on a platform dating back to 1992 - sure they have updated it some over the years - BUT IT IS THE SAME PLATFORM ... Honda does similar things, when they upgrade platforms every OTHER redesign .. e.g. the last 2 generations of Civic were on the same platform - the 06 was all new ... again - noone ever points this out in the press... Igor I have no problem telling one from the other....to me not even close...am aware that they are both lexus but they share not one piece of sheet metal as opposed to what ford has been doing with just about all of their prouducts back to I think the last taurus redesign... and I agree with you about chasis carry over from honda and toyota-that is one of the things ford is trying to do-but they at least change the body of the vehicle. michael you are right that it is hard to comment on the vehicle without pricing info-it just better be damn competitive. And regarding the $2k difference in pricing between the rav 4, crv and escape...don't overlook the fact that the residuals on the other two are much higher resulting in a lower lease price-which seems what mostly is advertised in the atlanta papers on saturday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 The E/M/T don't share sheetmetal either. Think more 1st Gen CRV/2nd Gen CRV than the different Lexus RXs, or the last Camry and this Camry which have suspiciously similar, yet not identical greenhouses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted November 30, 2006 Share Posted November 30, 2006 Actually as far as ALG is concerned the residuals on the Escape and Camry are both tier 3. The RX is a different story, but it is a luxury vehicle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 you are kidding right? for a minute there I thought you were serious....good one! Guess your blind, far as I see, no sheetmetal was carried over from the previous generation...the "look" might be the same but it is different. The three bar grill obviously would not fit. Thats why there are two. The bottom bar in the bumper looks like a third bar to me...but hey thats just me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Star Posted December 1, 2006 Share Posted December 1, 2006 michael...please show me where the camry looks anywhere near the previous model? Or for that matter any toyota product...they are capturing market share because they update their vehicles every 4-5 years, have a well earned reputation, putting content back into their products (unlike the mid 90's when they were decontenting due to the yen fluctation), entering new markets they have not been in before and creating new markets that did not exist 5 years ago..... They look all new for Toyota, but they don't look all new for the market. Toyota (and other Japs) have been trying to copy other cars for a while. Compare early Lexus model with Mercedes. Or great example, compare current Tundra (not new 2007 model) with 1997-2003 F-150. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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