Ford: No Diesel Cars - High Tech Gas egnines instead - Diesel F150 in 2008

[igor]

Source; Automotive News daily email

 

Quote:

 

The F-150 pickup will get a new 4.4-liter turbocharged V-8 diesel engine developed by Land Rover. It is expected to debut in the United States by late 2008.

 

But for cars, Ford plans to boost fuel economy two ways. It will use smaller engines loaded with technology, such as a turbocharger and gasoline direct injection, and offer more models with an optional gasoline-electric hybrid powertrain.

 

Ford had considered diesel engines in cars such as the compact Focus. A diesel usually boosts fuel economy by about 30 percent. A European diesel-powered Focus gets about 50 mpg on the highway. But tougher U.S. emissions rules took effect this month. The rules make all diesel-powered vehicles sold in the United States more expensive because of added filters and other emissions equipment.

 

"We have done a lot of assessment from a customer perspective, looking at what diesel offers in terms of fuel economy and performance versus cost," said Derrick Kuzak, Ford's product development boss. "At this point in time, we would say that GTDI (gasoline turbocharged direct injection) seems to be the better alternative."

 

------------

 

I have to say I am disappointed, I love diesels .. but the GTDI engines still sound fine.

 

Igor

[Blueblood]

Well that has got to be some of the most disappointing news in a long time from Ford.. I know other companies will be doing so, a 50 mpg Focus would kick ass, a diesel B-car could get 60mpg highway...

 

No small TDI engine will come close to those numbers.. How sad.. Ford screws up huge once again.. Unreal.. Who makes these kind of disastrous decisions?

[igor]

Well that has got to be some of the most disappointing news in a long time from Ford.. I know other companies will be doing so, a 50 mpg Focus would kick ass, a diesel B-car could get 60mpg highway...

 

No small TDI engine will come close to those numbers.. How sad.. Ford screws up huge once again.. Unreal.. Who makes these kind of disastrous decisions?

 

Honda is the only non-German that confirmed Diesel cars ...

 

So it seems Ford is simply figuring out the same thing as the rest of the competition ..

 

Igor

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Ford doesn't have a$$loads of money that they can just pile into making clean diesels. They already have GTDI developed (See MazdaSpeed engines) and can just reapply that development work to other programs. GTDI when tuned for economy instead of power can make decent power and economy numbers. I think that a 1.6L GTDI focus could get very good mileage and power figures. We'll just have to wait and see. For now, I just want them to make cars that don't look ugly and sell well.

[DCK]

I absolute cannot stand when Ford posts news with "We have paid attention to our customers" BS that they post.

 

Never has a company banked its entire future on a bunch of meaningless soccer mom study groups. That was the biggest issue they had, you'd think looking at their current situation that maybe for once they should be bold and stop listening to groups that caused you to put out the freestyle and 500.

[Blue II]

Well that has got to be some of the most disappointing news in a long time from Ford.. I know other companies will be doing so, a 50 mpg Focus would kick ass, a diesel B-car could get 60mpg highway...

 

No small TDI engine will come close to those numbers.. How sad.. Ford screws up huge once again.. Unreal.. Who makes these kind of disastrous decisions?

Edited January 8, 2007 by Blue II

[Edstock]

If the market demands diesels, when people will pay an extra $4K or whatever for a diesel package in a Focus or Fusion or 500, Ford has the diesels and the technology.

 

I wonder how much more a US-spec diesel Civic or Rabbit is going to cost, than their gas-powered versions?

[DCK]

I wonder how much more a US-spec diesel Civic or Rabbit is going to cost, than their gas-powered versions?

That would be the big thing to determine just how dumb this descision was.

 

I swear I read that the Diesel Volkswagens accounted for over 25% of VW sales in NA. Of course now they had to not sell them for a year because of the new regulations but the line will return at VW for 2008 model year.

 

So I wonder how much the price will change. But anyways over 1/4 was a suprisingly high number when I read it.

 

At any point I'd just wish Ford would get some balls and just go for something. Talk about price difference, look at Hybrids..........

 

Also to be real, once Honda starts putting out deisel cars the public perception may change dramatically, Honda and Toyota are capable of swaying public perception because they are such respected companies to the public.

[Edstock]

You have a point. But, at least Ford does have the diesels, if they follow VW and Honda.

[DCK]

You have a point. But, at least Ford does have the diesels, if they follow VW and Honda.

Which is a decent position to be in. If deisels to take off, Ford should be able to reverse their descision quickly and get them tothe market place fast.

 

Especially if Ford NA and Ford Europe will start to share global platforms and products.

[mackinaw]

I read someplace last year that a diesel Focus would probably cost more than $25,000. The big question is how many people would plunk down that much money for a 50mpg Focus. I'd definitely consider it, but wonder how many miles I'd have to drive for the diesel engine to pay for itself.

[Blue II]

The Twin Force 3.7 DI for the F-150 may be rated at 22 mpg city and 26 hwy. It will be a lower cost option than the Diesel. Future Diesel engine options will be quite costly due to emission requirements. The hi-tech DI gas engines will be less costly.

[Extreme4x4]

You would probably only have to drive 300-500K miles to recoup the difference in price.............. from fuel savings.

 

Do you really think that people would pay more for a diesel Focus than a V6 Fusion???

 

Comparing to VW is not the smartest thing................... as they are a premium brand, and demand significantly higher prices because of it.

[Edstock]

Plus VW have been flogging the beasts for decades.

 

Until about 4-5 years ago diesel VW's were brutal, and not as reliable as you might like, and quirky, which meant that only Ulrich the Wizard mechanic could keep it running. Anyway, bad as they were, they attracted their own true believers.

[Extreme4x4]

Actually, it was almost like a cult. I knew quite a few people who owned them and loved them.................. and they were quite quirky also. They usually had 3-4 lying around, to keep their driver going.

[LSFan00]

Which is a decent position to be in. If deisels to take off, Ford should be able to reverse their descision quickly and get them tothe market place fast.

 

Especially if Ford NA and Ford Europe will start to share global platforms and products.

 

 

This is so unacceptable it is beyond me. Honda has hninted at dropping the hybrid accord to put in the deisel moving forward, and though GM/Toyota have more innovative efficient technologies coming out, Ford sits idly by. I've driven the deisel C-class in Europe, and their deisels including Ford's rock, and will run much longer much more reliably than a gas motor. Higher RPM's just take a toll.

 

As a former generator mechanic I firmly believe deisels simply are better long term, and that the technology has advanced to where it is practical. NO, it does not really cost an extra 4K to build a deisel engine vs. gasoline. That is ridiculous.

 

Lastly, yes, I would happily pay 25K for a deisel EUU focus, over a fusion. In truth, I considered getting a fusion 2 months ago, but got a terrific deal for an 02 LS V8 for 16K, with 9K on the odometer (yes, it checked out). I'd pay the premium for a nice deisel Ford, but no way will I pay mid 20's for the 3 liter Fusion. And I'm a dedicated Ford fan, so I hope they change this direction (I don't know what I'd have done if the 3.5 fusion had been available.)

[Loyalbutconcerned]

This is so unacceptable it is beyond me. Honda has hninted at dropping the hybrid accord to put in the deisel moving forward, and though GM/Toyota have more innovative efficient technologies coming out, Ford sits idly by. I've driven the deisel C-class in Europe, and their deisels including Ford's rock, and will run much longer much more reliably than a gas motor. Higher RPM's just take a toll.

 

As a former generator mechanic I firmly believe deisels simply are better long term, and that the technology has advanced to where it is practical. NO, it does not really cost an extra 4K to build a deisel engine vs. gasoline. That is ridiculous.

 

Lastly, yes, I would happily pay 25K for a deisel EUU focus, over a fusion. In truth, I considered getting a fusion 2 months ago, but got a terrific deal for an 02 LS V8 for 16K, with 9K on the odometer (yes, it checked out). I'd pay the premium for a nice deisel Ford, but no way will I pay mid 20's for the 3 liter Fusion. And I'm a dedicated Ford fan, so I hope they change this direction (I don't know what I'd have done if the 3.5 fusion had been available.)

For what this is worth do think if it was just that easy more car companies would have been selling diesel cars? Toyota with all it's resources would have been all over this already. Honda is just getting into the game. It is clear to me that with all the environmental variables (competitive, government, legal, economics, etc.) there is not a good business case as of yet to jump right into this as desirable as it might seem. It goes without saying that you have to allocate your scarcest resources (cash) where you can get the best return - not o say this principle is always followed by Ford.

[JETSOLVER]

Couple of things.

 

First, in Europe the diesel takeup was directly related to the cost of the two fuels.

 

Second, although in the smaller more congested old world, the instant torque was a direct benefit, in NA, the much more open interstate/interprovincial highways made for some pretty tedious driving with the last generation of diesel.

Mitigated now somewhat by the extensive and recent devleopment of European diesels and of course, additional transmission gears with multiple overdrives.

 

And the cost differance here made the tradeoff darn near a wash.

 

The big thing is technology like bluetec, etc. is a serious NIH problem. How much do you think it would cost Ford to license that tech to meet newer tougher regulations? I'll guess a lot more than say five years ago. Note the stringent requirements for the new exhaust systems on the Super Duty and imagine the additional cost if econo-appliances had to deal with the additional maintainance.

 

And until the very recent last generation of pumps, diesel was still nasty stuff to spill and have clinging to you. Although the recent Mustang tank history has made more than a few Ford customers very familiar with being covered in motor fuel.

 

All in all, its going to take another generation of cars until most people are comfortable with diesel and the limitations.

 

If Honda can make it work in just four years, I'll be suprised, but I'll wager other advancements will make it a footnote.

[RangerM]

And until the very recent last generation of pumps, diesel was still nasty stuff to spill and have clinging to you. Although the recent Mustang tank history has made more than a few Ford customers very familiar with being covered in motor fuel.

 

You've made an excellent point here. Although, I'd have no problem with a diesel, I'm probably in the minority. I'm sure my wife wouldn't care to mess with a dirty diesel pump at the local station....assuming she can find one that sells diesel. Many stations around here don't bother to sell diesel, and when they do, it is usually a single pump that is (or can be) difficult to get to, and often away from other covered (ie out of the rain) pumps.

 

You are right about the smell. Once it gets on you, it can be difficult to remove.

 

If the local vendors started selling diesel, in a similar manner to gasoline, there would likely be less of an aggravation.

 

Other areas may be different, but around Wake County, NC. Diesel is not as common in/around where people live.

[LSFan00]

Good points, and I am not positive I am right. BUT, in Texas we have deisel pumps available everywhere, partially in my mind due to the popularity of the deisel mid-size pickups (F250/Dodge). New low-sulfur deisel, with availability, makes it a different proposition, at least in the midwest than it was. I don't disagree about 20 years ago the unappealing nature of the things, but I do think if I could have found an E320 bluetec for around 30K I'd have jumped on it. There just isn't much of a trade-off today between low-end-torque deisel car motors and highway performance. Change is always difficult to anticipate, but building some capacity early in a growing segment is not something Ford historically has been wonderful at, IMHO. Combining these with a fuel stack/generator or hybrid systems would really get folks talking too.

 

No, Ford shouldn't license bluetec, as that is a crappy way to clean up the exhaust; there are other ways, and it would be really, really nice if they would get on the ball clearing regulatory hurdles in smaller motors now, rather than later, and that is my point.

[LincolnFan]

The Twin Force 3.7 DI for the F-150 may be rated at 22 mpg city and 26 hwy. It will be a lower cost option than the Diesel. Future Diesel engine options will be quite costly due to emission requirements. The hi-tech DI gas engines will be less costly.

 

But what will happen to the Hurricane? assuming it will push 400 HP there.

[silvrsvt]

But what will happen to the Hurricane? assuming it will push 400 HP there.

 

 

I think that the 3.5L TT will be detuned in a truck application to make it more rugged. Its a great engine for people who want a F-150 as a car replacement, but don't need to tow around super heavy loads. The higher performance 3.5L TT will find its way in cars and the Boss will be the workhorse.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

Something to remember, Europe will be headed the same way the US is headed with respect to diesel emissions. Just like we will eventually take up their pedestrian safety mantra in our domestic vehicles. The emissions gear will be eventually developed that can enable another solution other than Bluetec to get these things cleared through emissions testing.

 

So, eventually, Ford will be forced to meet these emissions guidelines anyway, and are doubtlessly working on the problem somewhere even as I type this. Its just that they have limited resources and cna only spend them where they predict the biggest return and least risk.

 

As for a DI Twinforce 3.7L duratec v6 getting 22-25 in an F-150. The 4.0L v6s in the Frontier and Tacoma have a rough time achieving 20 mpg in the city and much more than that on the highway without twin turbochargers. DI is a help, maybe 10% improvement in efficiency. The twinturbo setup can be an efficiency enhancer as well, depending on where your foot is in the gas pedal. The problem is, the F-150 ways considerably more than the Tacoma and fronteir, and, will have to work that engine fairly hard. I predict that it won't break 20 mpg city, even with a 6 speed, unless they find a way to shed 400 plus pounds off the F-150, and make it more aerodynamic to boot. Heck, quite possibly the most efficent half-ton that has been produced to date, fuel wise, was the 4.0L v6 Tundra / 5AT combo that existed in the 05 model year. My brother in law has one. He babies the thing around town, and he still can't get more than 19 mpg out of it. That truck is markedly lighter than any of the 07 half tons out there. With their fully boxed frames and taller beds and bigger brakes etc, they can only get heavier. That weight is a killer in the city gas mileage game.

 

You want a half ton to make better than 20 mpg in the city, this is your recipet:

Composite Bed.

Aluminum body panels, hood and cab skin

Light weight wheels

All chromed metal replaced with chrome look/alike plastic

3.0L V6 variable turboed atkinson cycle DI gas engine or a 2.6 L turbo diesel hooked to a CVT or 6 speed auto with an electric motor/generator in the mix. A decent sized Li/Ion battery pack nestled in the frame rails and regenerative braking all around. All electric accessories.

 

You'd have some pretty severe towing restrictions on the thing, though load capacity shouldn't be too affected.

 

I have always maintained that for the same amount of money that it takes to make a full hybrid vehicle, you can develop a lighter weight version of the same vehicle, use a properly sized and tuned diesel engine, and achieve efficiency as good or better than the hybrid in all areas. Don't believe me, think of it like this. Suppose that toyota built a Camry out of aluminum instead of Steel like they do now. How much more would that cost in their volume numbers? No more than $2000 per vehicle. Use a 2.2L turbo diesel in the engine compartment instead of the 2.4L gas + hybrid synergy drive and dispose of the battery pack and regenerative braking gear. Drop in said 2.2L diesel. You'd likely have a Camry that weighs in at least 500 or more lbs lighter than the hybrid before it. We know that Diesels make phenomenal highway mpg, and this would be no exception. Easily beating the hybrid's low 30s number. As for the city, that's where the hybrid shines, pushing low to mid thirties there supposedly (haven't heard anyone declare that their hybrid Camry has hit 40 mpg city yet). A much lighter camry toated around by a diesel will be able to hit mid 30s in the city as well. When it comes time for the hybrid to replace its batteries, the diesel will just keep chuging right along. When it comes time to dispose of the vehicle, there's no battery waste to clean up either.

 

That's a no brainer. Someone will try it with a pickup one day. The advertising pitch will be that the thing will never corode (almost no steel), get great gas mileage, and, hey, its a diesel pickup. Diesel pickups already command a premium that is far in excess of what the true cost differential is, so that could pay for a lot right there. Its just making small diesels meet the emissions regs.

[LSFan00]

...Easily beating the hybrid's low 30s number. As for the city, that's where the hybrid shines, pushing low to mid thirties there supposedly (haven't heard anyone declare that their hybrid Camry has hit 40 mpg city yet). A much lighter camry toated around by a diesel will be able to hit mid 30s in the city as well. When it comes time for the hybrid to replace its batteries, the diesel will just keep chuging right along. When it comes time to dispose of the vehicle, there's no battery waste to clean up either.

 

That's a no brainer. Someone will try it with a pickup one day. The advertising pitch will be that the thing will never corode (almost no steel), get great gas mileage, and, hey, its a diesel pickup. Diesel pickups already command a premium that is far in excess of what the true cost differential is, so that could pay for a lot right there. Its just making small diesels meet the emissions regs.

 

 

Please see Euro Audi (C6) A6 3.0 TDI making 225 hp. Not Aluminum perhaps, but pretty light and does well in the mileage (mid 30's), while getting up to 40 mpg. 0-62 in about 6 seconds I think. I know Audi/DC/VW are going bluetec, but as per above, there are other ways to do this, and I think your selection of the Camry is a good comparison, but it is the other half of the camcord, the Accord that is going deisel soon.

 

Yeah, the regs are getting tighter everywhere, but there are ways to get clean emissions, and a global engineering emphasis on it will get it done.

Edited January 10, 2007 by LSFan00

[mackinaw]

From the Left Lane News:

Toyota says Diesels too Expensive

 

While diesel proponents often dismiss hybrids as less cost-effective, Toyota R&D boss Masatami Takimoto says diesels are now the less economical technology. Takimoto said strict clean-air regulations in the United States make diesels too expensive to be worth the fuel savings.

 

"I won't deny that we won't be offering a diesel in the United States some time in the future," said Executive Vice President Masatami Takimoto, who overseas Toyota's research and development.

 

"But right now we think hybrids are much more cost competitive," he told reporters on the sidelines at the North American International Auto Show in Detroit.

 

Full article at:

 

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2007/01/09/toy...-too-expensive/