Michael Reynolds Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 anyone have a page, where i can see the totals of vehicles sold, i see GMs, but cant find others.. Fusion outsold the malibu, and was 1400 behind the G6, its main GM counterparts.. not bad... that 31k number of camrys is just mind boggling imho... Pioneer, i know you dont like the fusion because it killed your beloved taurus, but the fusion is many times better than the taurus ever was... head to head the fusion compares very well with all its competitors... i see the impala sold 25k, but i bet at least half of those were fleet sales... And that would be a big NO. It's not liked because it is made in Mexico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I guess when you fail to engineer a competitive product for a segment, and refuse to advertise such product, internal sales numbers must have to be set low. Thank you for explaining it to me. If Ford can sell a product at 120K units a year (low end of expectations) and still make money on it, why worry about how many more they are selling if they are still making money on it? I'd rather have them sell 120K of them and make money, instead of making 200K and dumping them with incentives and fleet sales and having net profit lower (not to mention residuals for trade-ins/leases being lower)...Sales numbers doesn't always equate profit. Ford has many internal problems it needs to sort before it becomes profitable again...not be dependent on selling 200-300K cars a year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 If Ford can sell a product at 120K units a year (low end of expectations) and still make money on it, why worry about how many more they are selling if they are still making money on it? Please. How many people have said that.......... Nothing agianst you but some people are hard headed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Dodge Ram was up. That is because it has the newest design of the full size truck market...right? This proves you don't need to re-design something every other year as long as you have a solid product to maintain sales leadership. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 If it pays for itself and turns a profit at 130k, then wouldn't selling more than that make substantially more profit? Seems to me a company that lost $12.7B last year would be doing whatever it takes to make money. Up to a point, yes, selling more = more profit. Until ATP and residuals start to fall. Then you start earning less per unit. Say you can sell 130k units with an average discount of 750 per unit, and your 3 year residual value is 50%. Now say at 180k units, you're spending $1500 per unit in incentives and your residual value is now 40%. You are spending $750 more per unit, plus (to keep monthly payments constant) you have to throw an additional 10% on the hood of all leases. Suddenly, 50k units of additional volume doesn't look so sweet. In fact, your profit overall is lower than it was at 130k. --------------- Ultimately, every Ford vehicle program has to pay its own way. The Fusion should not subsidize the Focus, the Explorer should not subsidize the Five Hundred, etc. If Ford gets every vehicle program profitable, the big problems take care of themselves (how does it go? "Watch the pennies and the dollars take care of themselves?") This--by the way--is a powerful argument for globalizing the C platform. The NA Focus can then lose money on even a majority of models sold, if sales volume from Europe, etc., subsidizes it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiehaskell Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 If it pays for itself and turns a profit at 130k, then wouldn't selling more than that make substantially more profit? Seems to me a company that lost $12.7B last year would be doing whatever it takes to make money. I have to agree with you. The Fusion is Ford's bread and butter midsize car - if 120k units is their target - I feel bad for them. Being behind the G6 with the Malibu coming out shortly and the Accord just around the corner....well, I can't see things getting much better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 And that would be a big NO. It's not liked because it is made in Mexico. I don't think this is much of a reason. My father just bought a Fusion. Last time be bought a new car it was a Taurus. The Fusion was made in Mexico and the Taurus was made in Chicago. Ask him which one has better fit and finish??? Guess what...it's not the Taurus! I don't think it really matters much anymore to people where something is built as long as it is a quality product. Now if Ford wanted to awe us on Fusion sales numbers then they should fleet it out like they did the Taurus. Imagine former Taurus fleet volume on top of the current 10,500. I bet they would have sold around 20-25,000 of them and everyone here would be saying it is a big success. I honestly do not think the Fusion is a bad car. In fact, I think it is the best mid-sized FWD sedan from a US automaker. Why people are choosing the Malibu, G6, Impala, or Sebring over it...I have no idea. It should be able to take the US market. The only thing I can think that would make it better is to offer the 3.5L V6 as an option and maybe in the future they will. The one smart thing Ford has done with this car is they have been adding and will continue to add big improvements along the way to keep people interested. In 2007 it was the all wheel drive version. Next year it will be the Hybrid version and of course I would recommend to them once 3.5L V6 production is moving at a faster rate to add that improvement as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 If it pays for itself and turns a profit at 130k, then wouldn't selling more than that make substantially more profit? Seems to me a company that lost $12.7B last year would be doing whatever it takes to make money. it would if Ford has some cheap spare capacity .. right now it does not ... Fusion cannot sell consistently more than 11-12k a month ... if it got 15 some month it was because the previous months it sold less and has excess inventory. We went over this over ad over again .. but until Ford opens a second line for it, it cannot make more than that (well the could probably add more overtime to the Mexican plant :D) Igor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I have to agree with you. The Fusion is Ford's bread and butter midsize car - if 120k units is their target - I feel bad for them. Being behind the G6 with the Malibu coming out shortly and the Accord just around the corner....well, I can't see things getting much better. despite my comment above, I actually agree with this. not only is Fusion getting new Competition, but really;; If foerd is so small theirbread-and-butter cannot be expected to keep more than one plant busy they are in trouble as a counterpoint, Malibu, G6 and Impala had well over 35% fleet sales last year(impala was at 55% or so IIRC) .. so expect them to drop significantly this year ... and forget the fake picture of their success GM has been painting. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Reynolds Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I don't think this is much of a reason. My father just bought a Fusion. Last time be bought a new car it was a Taurus. The Fusion was made in Mexico and the Taurus was made in Chicago. Ask him which one has better fit and finish??? Guess what...it's not the Taurus! I don't think it really matters much anymore to people where something is built as long as it is a quality product. Now if Ford wanted to awe us on Fusion sales numbers then they should fleet it out like they did the Taurus. Imagine former Taurus fleet volume on top of the current 10,500. I bet they would have sold around 20-25,000 of them and everyone here would be saying it is a big success. I honestly do not think the Fusion is a bad car. In fact, I think it is the best mid-sized FWD sedan from a US automaker. Why people are choosing the Malibu, G6, Impala, or Sebring over it...I have no idea. It should be able to take the US market. The only thing I can think that would make it better is to offer the 3.5L V6 as an option and maybe in the future they will. The one smart thing Ford has done with this car is they have been adding and will continue to add big improvements along the way to keep people interested. In 2007 it was the all wheel drive version. Next year it will be the Hybrid version and of course I would recommend to them once 3.5L V6 production is moving at a faster rate to add that improvement as well. I think you misread what I was getting at. The Fusion isn't liked because it 'should have been' made stateside by UAW workers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 (edited) it would if Ford has some cheap spare capacity .. right now it does not ... Fusion cannot sell consistently more than 11-12k a month ... if it got 15 some month it was because the previous months it sold less and has excess inventory. We went over this over ad over again .. but until Ford opens a second line for it, it cannot make more than that (well the could probably add more overtime to the Mexican plant :D) Igor. Well this is a good point. Does anyone know if Hermosillo is in fact running at 100% or not??? If the demand is out there...why not crank Atlanta back up??? That would kill 2 birds with one stone. The people who hate the idea of a car built in Mexico could find an Atlanta model...or how about adding production at another flex-plant...AAI? Oakville? I think you misread what I was getting at. The Fusion isn't liked because it 'should have been' made stateside by UAW workers. If Ford had done that would the carline be making enough profit with the current pricing or would it have the Focus problem of making little or no profit because of high labor costs? Edited February 1, 2007 by 2005Explorer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Then Ford needs to come up with a vehicle in this segment that can sell in higher volumes without incentives. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I can think of 12.7 Billion reasons why. No. Seriously. Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 I can think of 12.7 Billion reasons why. After looking at GM's results I don't really think the sales numbers even have anything to do with product anymore. The Saturn Aura which was supposed to be a Camry and Accord killer from GM is already down this month to 4100 units. This is actually a lower number then in previous months and it just came out this fall to rave reviews. The G6 is another good product and it is down 25% from last year in sales and it is not a terribly old product. It looks like to me the US consumer has made up their mind. It's import or nothing. So I guess maybe the discussion should shift to if the US automaker is even a relevant entity anymore? If everyone wants imports why even continue on? Sell out the pieces of what is left of GM and Ford and let the American consumer have all the Toyota's and Honda's they want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MGallun Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Then Ford needs to come up with a vehicle in this segment that can sell in higher volumes without incentives. Obviously the Fusion isn't it. dude, your nuts.. your lucky if your get 1500 in rebates on a fusion... thats low compared to others and right on par with yota and honda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eddiehaskell Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 After looking at GM's results I don't really think the sales numbers even have anything to do with product anymore. The Saturn Aura which was supposed to be a Camry and Accord killer from GM is already down this month to 4100 units. This is actually a lower number then in previous months and it just came out this fall to rave reviews. The G6 is another good product and it is down 25% from last year in sales and it is not a terribly old product. It looks like to me the US consumer has made up their mind. It's import or nothing. So I guess maybe the discussion should shift to if the US automaker is even a relevant entity anymore? If everyone wants imports why even continue on? Sell out the pieces of what is left of GM and Ford and let the American consumer have all the Toyota's and Honda's they want. The Aura isn't GM's bread and butter. Also, Saturn has no where near the dealers as Ford. The new Malibu will be GM's volume car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 And low sales numbers don't equate to a viable company. Hmm....what is the most profitable automaker (profits vs revenue) over the past decade? Porsche. They are also one of the smallest. And no, I'm not comparing Ford to Porsche. I'm just saying that you don't need to base profitability entirely on how many vehicles you move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 That excuse is getting tired and old. It has been on sale for what? Almost two years? And how many years was the Camry on the market before it became accepted by the mainstream? It was more than two. Toyota had the advantage of being an unknown when it entered the market. Consumers didn't know if the company was good or bad. Ford is at the disadvantage of the consumer knowing already that their previous products sucked. It's not something you overcome in two, three, or even nine or ten years. Ford of 1998-2004 is going to be biting Ford in the ass well into next decade as far as their image is concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 So are you saying Ford is using this strategy to produce a big profit and Chrysler will post a big loss due to these fleet sales you suspect? I'm saying nothing of the sort. Stop attempting to twist what I say. It won't work. However, the lack of fleet dumping on Ford's part will likely lead to LESS money lost than if they had continued to dump into fleets. Conversely, it's likely Chrysler's profits won't be AS large as they could be if they did less fleet dumping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
focus05 Posted February 1, 2007 Share Posted February 1, 2007 Is the Fusion a success? Well, if it is turning a profit on 150k in sales last year, then yes. It will probably sell about 150k this year as well and hopefully be profitable again. It is set to debut in 2008 as a 2009 model just shortly after the new Accord. So, I would say the updates are on their way. In the meantime, it's reputation as a quality car with good features and performance will continue to deliver people to the showroom (no thanks to Ford's terrible advertising campaigns). Why can't they sell more than 150k? First question: when was the last time Ford offered a competitive, high-quality midsize sedan? Probably 1992 or 1993. If everyone had virtually counted Ford out of the midsize market and started buying new Accords and Camrys, that would certainly explain why this car is slow to pick up sales again. The biggest complaint I have for Ford with the Fusion is this: why did it take you so long to get a reasonable marketing piece in place for this vehicle. It has been winning award after award, and yet, it has taken them 12 months to put it together. I argue they would have sold no more than 7-8k units in January without their new ad campaign. And even then, it talks about only one or two accolades. But now that the Fusion is showing up in these commercials, it will be only a matter of time before CR reports start convincing people it is ok to check this car out. I think 13-15k of sales on average during the spring and summer is reasonable - as long as it is profitable. I think we will have to live with lower numbers for a while - at least for the next 12-15 months as Ford "resets" and slashes fleet sales. After that, my bet is that things will get better as far as numbers. But, more importantly, as those numbers grow again, they will be in a good retail/fleet mix that leads to increased profitability, rather than costly rental contracts that boost sales but ruin everything else about the company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 It's been how long since Ford had a competitive midsize? That's why their marketing plan for the 2nd year got off to a rocky start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Selby Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 I seem to remember someone here posting "Ford relies most on fleet" and never did back it up with proof when called on it. Ford used to be the leading seller to daily rental fleets. This was partly because Ford owned Hertz, but it was also an easy way to dispose of excess inventory. Today, Ford sells fewer vehicles to the daily rental market than any of the domestic automakers. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic.../702010351/1148 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/artic.../702010351/1148 Here's the line that really stuck out at me: "For example, 36-month residual values for the new Ford Edge have been pegged at 51 percent -- better than either the Toyota Highlander or Nissan Murano." Woot! :happy feet: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bb62 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 No. Seriously. Why? Richard, I'll tell you why. Ford's biggest problem during the 1990s was finding a formula for doing mid-volume programs at a profit. And they never found that formula. While the gradual march from transfer line to CNC machines helped somewhat, every platform was being planned at volumes far higher than what was ultimately being sold. Ford simply doesn't know how to do programs in the very volume segments that it plans to enter now. In the early 2000s, Ford had 5 of the top best nameplates in the industry. This allowed Ford management to EXPLICITLY say that large volume projects would be the only profit drivers. Many lower volume programs were either cancelled or JVed out of the mainstream product development cycle. Now, this complete lack of capability from a mid-size volume perspective (again so as to be clear - I'm not talking of mid-size "vehicles") means a disadvantage compared with competition that is used to high levels of complexity in plant environments. Ford had beeen successful for years because it could deliver more at the same price (or the same for a lower price) because it had the huge economies of scale. As Ford creeps down the list of US manufacturers, its financial muscle will be further exaserbated in dealing with suppliers. As an aside, what the marketing numbers don't show is the significant aging of the typical Ford customer. These people will not be buying as many cars as the young buyers (owned by the foreign brands) and their numbers will be gradually reduced by time. Ford is fighting a loosing battle even if its products become competitive across the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted February 2, 2007 Share Posted February 2, 2007 God, I shoiuld have taken a buyout. This company is being run into the ground. It's never too late to quit. Heaven knows I wouldn't want a vehicle built by someone with your attitude about the product you're building. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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