Skilled Trades Seniority

[Sherlock]

Comment why you voted the way did.

Edited March 14, 2007 by Sherlock

[whereswaldo]

Comment why you voted the way did.

 

 

I see no reason to change it.

[VDTRANSMAN]

I firmly believe it should be company seniority. How can you justify laying somebody off with 20 years company/7 years skilled and keep somebody working with 10 years skilled that hired off the street? Same goes for the skilled/non skilled seniority crap. Trades hired from the street with 10 years gets the axe while someone with 7 years is working on the line? Its all total BS.

[Ktp1989]

Naturally with 18 years with the company overall, but only 6 in the trades, I would rather go by company seniority. But when I came into this program, I realized I was giving up for company seniority for my trade and accepted it. We can always count on going back to production while others go out the door. But if I had my choice, sure I'd want all my time but clearly it won't ever happen.

[VDTRANSMAN]

Naturally with 18 years with the company overall, but only 6 in the trades, I would rather go by company seniority. But when I came into this program, I realized I was giving up for company seniority for my trade and accepted it. We can always count on going back to production while others go out the door. But if I had my choice, sure I'd want all my time but clearly it won't ever happen.

 

Not everyone that went through the program can count on going back to production. Dont assume that because you can, everyone can. What of the people that hired in production at one plant and acquired trades seniority at another plant? Quite possibly there is no job waiting for them at their original plant where they hold production seniority. Edison, Atlanta, and Norfolk transferee's come to mind, just to name a few.

[Dadzee]

Going to school, improving oneself, and in general doing what it takes to get ahead should assure the trades KEEP their senority within their classification. Maybe 20 years ago when some tradesman actually took a pay CUT to get into the trade some found it unappealing. Why should they get the benefit of having taken the plunge first. There were 3 people in the apprentice group behind me who gave up the trade because they could not handle the loss of overall pay from the OT restrictions...tough shit... I am sure others waited as well and now regret the decision.

[ratripowe]

Keep it the way it is. In my plant I would gain about 15 spots in seniority by using my production date, but as one post earlier states, I knew what I was going into when I signed up for my apprenticeship Also, why should I jump over someone with more experience than me? That person has earned their right to be here ahead of me. Again, they signed up with the same rules in place. Just my opinion.

Edited March 15, 2007 by ratripowe

[nonvalue]

Comment why you voted the way did.

 

Lets see... an apprentice comes into a trade after being on the line for X amount of years..... and a journeyperson teaches the apprentice how to do the job. The journeyperson passes on X number years of experience.... helping the apprentice become a journeyperson..... then the apprentice passes the journeyperson in seniority..... something wrong with this picture ......my guess is the apprentice may not get taught much... who knows the apprentice may even wash out of program based on journeyperson evaluation.

[snatchblock]

Lets see... an apprentice comes into a trade after being on the line for X amount of years..... and a journeyperson teaches the apprentice how to do the job. The journeyperson passes on X number years of experience.... helping the apprentice become a journeyperson..... then the apprentice passes the journeyperson in seniority..... something wrong with this picture ......my guess is the apprentice may not get taught much... who knows the apprentice may even wash out of program based on journeyperson evaluation.

I agree with you. If the apprentice had more time than the journeyperson He would have to bring his A game or get washed out. This might make our apprentice program even better. When the apprentice gets his or her card they are the same as their teachers. Same job same pay. Just my thoughts. and i don't think they would pass the journeyperson they have always been ahead of them. Again just my thoughts I am just a line rat looking in.

[rainbownthdrk]

I would say yeah, make trade seniority equal to company seniority. But only after we become

journeymen. At that point, we are qualified to do every job in the plant, right? We may not have the

experience the tradesmen had on the outside, but, many of the things they did before, they are not

doing at Ford. The worst problem, however, would be during the apprenticeship portion. Some

journeymen would sabotage the training if their apprentice would jump ahead of them once they

graduated. Of course, I would jump ahead if trade seniority=company seniority, so I am biased.

But, don't worry high seniority, it ain't never gonna happen!!!!! :happy feet:

[mikem12]

When I was layed off in 80 I went to work for a local factory where they only had company seniority. The brought me a man off the line as an Apprentice. They told me he would keep all of his seniority which would make him senior to me when he turned out. I told them to find someone else to train him since I wasn't about to train someone to desplace me.

 

there is line seniority and skilled trades seniority, let's keep it that way.

 

Mike

 

 

 

Lets see... an apprentice comes into a trade after being on the line for X amount of years..... and a journeyperson teaches the apprentice how to do the job. The journeyperson passes on X number years of experience.... helping the apprentice become a journeyperson..... then the apprentice passes the journeyperson in seniority..... something wrong with this picture ......my guess is the apprentice may not get taught much... who knows the apprentice may even wash out of program based on journeyperson evaluation.

[whereswaldo]

But, don't worry high seniority, it ain't never gonna happen!!!!! :happy feet:

 

 

I would keep it the same even if I gained from using my 29 yrs comp. vs. my 13 as trades. Also if you came from prod., you can go back. Doesnt matter if your home location is closed or not. And on the company side, I would not want to see , say a mechanic with 10 yrs on trades get axed by a newly graduated apprent. who has more comp. sen. You can lose a lot of valuable experience that way. By the way, most trades in other industries go by trade time or merit. If we went to merit, the unions long held tenet of seniority would be gone. Back to virtually being at-will employees, where only the brown nosers survive.JMHO.

[Sherlock]

Wow its alot closer than I expected.I was thinking the keep it votes would far out number the abolish it votes.

[VDTRANSMAN]

I would keep it the same even if I gained from using my 29 yrs comp. vs. my 13 as trades. Also if you came from prod., you can go back. Doesnt matter if your home location is closed or not. And on the company side, I would not want to see , say a mechanic with 10 yrs on trades get axed by a newly graduated apprent. who has more comp. sen. You can lose a lot of valuable experience that way. By the way, most trades in other industries go by trade time or merit. If we went to merit, the unions long held tenet of seniority would be gone. Back to virtually being at-will employees, where only the brown nosers survive.JMHO.

 

 

You my friend are wrong. You may not exercise your appendix C seniority anywhere other than the plant in which you acquired it. Now if the plant is in hiring mode, you may put in for the job along with everybody else. Never worked production at the plant? Only skilled? You dont have production seniority rights at that plant. PERIOD!

[VDTRANSMAN]

When I was layed off in 80 I went to work for a local factory where they only had company seniority. The brought me a man off the line as an Apprentice. They told me he would keep all of his seniority which would make him senior to me when he turned out. I told them to find someone else to train him since I wasn't about to train someone to desplace me.

 

there is line seniority and skilled trades seniority, let's keep it that way.

 

Mike

 

 

As an apprentice I worked under numerous journeymen from the street with less trade time. They hired in after I started the program. Never had a problem. I call your bluff regardless. You would eventually start showing the apprentice the ropes. That or the apprentice would just sit there and watch you work all day. Like that would ever happen. lol

 

You been around longer? You qualified to do the job? You stay. Why should a tradesman hired from the street (seniority permitting) not be allowed to go work the line in the event he is cut from the trades?

Edited March 15, 2007 by VDTRANSMAN

[mule]

Lets see... an apprentice comes into a trade after being on the line for X amount of years..... and a journeyperson teaches the apprentice how to do the job. The journeyperson passes on X number years of experience.... helping the apprentice become a journeyperson..... then the apprentice passes the journeyperson in seniority..... something wrong with this picture ......my guess is the apprentice may not get taught much... who knows the apprentice may even wash out of program based on journeyperson evaluation.

 

In the future I dont think you'll have to worry about this scenario as the program will probably be

cut like everything else. I say Co. seniority having worked the line for the first 14 and having to do

all the bad jobs because I was low on the stick and my rep shoving the word "seniority" down my throat

everyday , then taking the apprenticeship(yes I knew I had to give it up but doesnt mean I agree with it) getting in the only job in the plant that I know of where seniority :slap: means nothing? WTF makes NO sense

and not what has been shoved up my A** since day one

[dpgperftest]

I firmly believe it should be company seniority. How can you justify laying somebody off with 20 years company/7 years skilled and keep somebody working with 10 years skilled that hired off the street? Same goes for the skilled/non skilled seniority crap. Trades hired from the street with 10 years gets the axe while someone with 7 years is working on the line? Its all total BS.

 

 

SO you left the line !!!! to bad

[MTP_UAW]

Comment why you voted the way did.

 

"Keep it the way it is now."

 

20 year electrician gets canned while a 1 year electrian with 20 in at Ford stays as an electrician? Give me a break.

Under "Keep it the way it is now." at least they both continue to work for Ford.

 

Who stays up at night making this stupid shit up?

[NAPtraveler]

I am strongly against the Ford Apprenticeship Program entirely. It's a hand picked few who only want to get off the assembly line, make more money and do absolutely nothing.

It's been my experience that relatively few apprentices have the drive and motivation to do thier job effectively day in and day out. To them they've won the lottery and since there's no accountablity in the trades, it's a perfect classification to be in. If the common assembly line worker knew the truth then the :fan:

I see the Ford Apprenticeship Program as the end to the classification of skilled tradesperson.

 

BTW - I think they should leave the seniority the way it is.

[whereswaldo]

I firmly believe it should be company seniority. How can you justify laying somebody off with 20 years company/7 years skilled and keep somebody working with 10 years skilled that hired off the street? Same goes for the skilled/non skilled seniority crap. Trades hired from the street with 10 years gets the axe while someone with 7 years is working on the line? Its all total BS.

 

First off , that 20 comp./7 trade would have the right to go to production. Usually they have achoice. If they are laid off , they chose it. We have trades now that have prod. rights but picked the lay off. Not TLO either but ILO. Also that laid off trades would have recall rights over the one who chose a production job. And not neccessarily because of seniority.

[whereswaldo]

Wow its alot closer than I expected.I was thinking the keep it votes would far out number the abolish it votes.

 

I dont know Sherlock. #'s could change but exit polling shows what's usually called a landslide (60-40).

[bigredogre]

you hire in to a plant,as a employee of ford motor company.

you do not hire in to say wixom and start at alanta,and the bump to louisville this is for the benifit of ford and the uaw.

as all plants have different work guidlines.

I hired in as skilled trades and was laid off and transfed to another plant,this is a benifit extended to me by the union contract.

it would be utter choas to allow ford senority,except in layoff or plant closings.

[wallflower]

I am strongly against the Ford Apprenticeship Program entirely. It's a hand picked few who only want to get off the assembly line, make more money and do absolutely nothing.

It's been my experience that relatively few apprentices have the drive and motivation to do thier job effectively day in and day out. To them they've won the lottery and since there's no accountablity in the trades, it's a perfect classification to be in. If the common assembly line worker knew the truth then the :fan:

I see the Ford Apprenticeship Program as the end to the classification of skilled tradesperson.

 

BTW - I think they should leave the seniority the way it is.

 

1. I have been around for two test cycles now. The first was the old criteria for entry and the second was the seniority based criteria. I don't know of any hand picking, just the occasional outside influence for sex, race, etc.

 

2. If it is your experience then I will take it that you are a Journeyman or Supervisor. If you are a Journeyman then the lack of drive and motivation is likely resting on your shoulders. Most of the apprentices that I have associated with follow the examples given to them. If you are a supervisor, again, it is you job to motivate these people and if they can't hack it, eliminate them from the program.

 

3. Maybe there wasn't any accountability at NAP. When they were open that is. The idea of $10,000/minute is plenty of accountability for us. Again, if the person isn't cutting it, then the Journeyman/supervisor needs to motivate or remove the individual.

 

4. I will also take it that you served an apprenticeship on the outside. The ownership of the apprenticeship program lies as much or more so with the Journeymen than anyone else. That is the entire concept of the Journeyman/Apprentice relationship. Maybe you are proud. Maybe you are skilled. But I'll bet you aren't much of a teach and a great armchair quarterback.

 

What do I know. LAP is still here though isn't it??

[DukeNukem]

1. I have been around for two test cycles now. The first was the old criteria for entry and the second was the seniority based criteria. I don't know of any hand picking, just the occasional outside influence for sex, race, etc.

 

2. If it is your experience then I will take it that you are a Journeyman or Supervisor. If you are a Journeyman then the lack of drive and motivation is likely resting on your shoulders. Most of the apprentices that I have associated with follow the examples given to them. If you are a supervisor, again, it is you job to motivate these people and if they can't hack it, eliminate them from the program.

 

3. Maybe there wasn't any accountability at NAP. When they were open that is. The idea of $10,000/minute is plenty of accountability for us. Again, if the person isn't cutting it, then the Journeyman/supervisor needs to motivate or remove the individual.

 

4. I will also take it that you served an apprenticeship on the outside. The ownership of the apprenticeship program lies as much or more so with the Journeymen than anyone else. That is the entire concept of the Journeyman/Apprentice relationship. Maybe you are proud. Maybe you are skilled. But I'll bet you aren't much of a teach and a great armchair quarterback.

 

What do I know. LAP is still here though isn't it??

 

Sorry but you are wrong on some things..

 

1. A grown man/woman should not need a supervisor to bird dog them all day if they have a job classification then they should know what to do.

 

2. The Apprentice program does not require you to get good evaluatuions from the Journeymen you are assigned too or to pass your exams. We at NAP have individuals that met this criteria and were still passed through the program even after bad evals and test failures. Reps from Dearborn came and interviewed many of us and said individual still got passed through.

 

3. Why give a person who is ready to retire an Apprenticesgip? What a waste of money and time.

 

4. An obligatory time frame for employment after training should be enforced.

 

5. Accountability! Since when has anyone been held accountable for anything?

 

6. Quit teaching people with no background yet how to run before they can walk. It is impossible to teach someone how to troubleshoot all aspects of automated lines in 4 years.

[Sherlock]

I chose not to vote. There is no way in hell that the current rules will ever be changed.

Rules are made to be broken,this is just a silly internet poll and nothing will happen because of it,so go ahead and vote.

Edited March 16, 2007 by Sherlock