Detroit Death Pool: Who will go bankrupt first?

[silvrsvt]

My '07 Impala (which I bought instead of a Camry) has been in the shop 3 times now; my '05 F250 4 times; while my '07 Honda Pilot has never been in for anything.

 

All I get from the GM/Ford dealers is grief, attitude, and contempt. Nice way of keeping me as a customer...

 

As for this continued domestic bashing: people are PISSED and are voting with their dollars. I think baby boomers are the last holdouts on the "buy American" thing. Gen X and Y grew up seeing their parents screwed over with crappy American cars so they mostly buy foreign from what I see here on the West Coast. And immigrants seem to prefer Toyota and Honda, too.

 

-Chris H

 

I had a SVT Focus that was a major POS, that was tied up at the dealership one time for nearly 20 days. I still bought another Ford...just because you get one bad car doesn't mean the lot of them is bad...my "good" experances out weigh the "bad" ones...then you get people who buy a import and are in total shock and never admit they have to take to the dealership when something does go wrong with it.

 

Plus, with your returns to the dealers...what was it specifically for? Stupid stuff?

[NickF1011]

My '07 Impala (which I bought instead of a Camry) has been in the shop 3 times now; my '05 F250 4 times; while my '07 Honda Pilot has never been in for anything.

 

All I get from the GM/Ford dealers is grief, attitude, and contempt. Nice way of keeping me as a customer...

 

As for this continued domestic bashing: people are PISSED and are voting with their dollars. I think baby boomers are the last holdouts on the "buy American" thing. Gen X and Y grew up seeing their parents screwed over with crappy American cars so they mostly buy foreign from what I see here on the West Coast. And immigrants seem to prefer Toyota and Honda, too.

 

-Chris H

 

Hmmm...I'm square on that Gen X-Gen Y line and I actually know quite a few people who are MORE pro-American than their parents when it comes to car buying. These are the kids who were given their parents hand-me-down imports during the 90's that fell apart on them just as badly as the Buick or Dodge their parents owned in the 1970's.

[TStag]

Ford and GM debt position probably will be sustainable over the next 5-6 years. For me the bigg question is can Ford and GM maintain market share over 10 years to ensure the debt's are paid. It's going to be a tough long slog I fear. ford and GM must grow sales outside the US in place like China and India now to cope with faling sales at home.

[RichardJensen]

Most of Ford & GM debt that is reported is consumer debt that has been repackaged and resold.

Edited May 24, 2007 by RichardJensen

[TStag]

Most of Ford & GM debt that is reported is consumer debt that has been repackaged and resold.

 

 

GM sold GMAC to Cerberus, isn't that their profitable Finance arm? That was a bad mistake by Mr Lutz I fear. According to a report I read GM will now take twice as long to pay back it's loans because GMAC no longer generates revenue for them.

[bystander]

GM sold GMAC to Cerberus, isn't that their profitable Finance arm? That was a bad mistake by Mr Lutz I fear. According to a report I read GM will now take twice as long to pay back it's loans because GMAC no longer generates revenue for them.

 

 

GM sold 51% of GMAC and retained a 49% stake, so they are still receiving nearly half the cash and profits they enjoyed when it was a wholly-owned subsidiary.

[FordBuyer]

So there should be NO accountability for sensationalist, inaccurate, arrogant, and overblown reporting?

 

Exactly WHO should hold these journalists to account?

 

These journalists do not feel the slightest qualms when it comes to nailing a corporation to the wall for a some real or imagined infraction. I say that they too are subject to scrutiny for their conduct! Who are they, that they perform their craft shoddily, and expect to get off without being called to account for it? Does calling attention to the errors of another exempt you from accountability for yours?

 

I noticed this author did not mention Ford of Europe and their success and in other parts of world too. Ford is global company and North America makes up less of its overall revenue all the time. In fact, America itself only makes up less than 20% of global economy and that is piece of pie that is shrinking quickly as many other economies grow much faster. Certainly N.A. is still essential to Ford's success, but not as much as it used to be, especially if Ford can stop the bleeding in its home market. Forbes likes to keep telling us that we live in global economy, but then conveniently forgets this fact when analyzing global company like Ford. Ford of Europe is starting to rival North American Operations in employes, plants, revenue, sales, and in every other way and is actually making a profit. Not sure how this analyst missed this fact and did not include it in his conclusions.

 

Currently drive 2002 Taurus SES Sport,

 

Mike

[Savetheplanet]

hmmmm, Ford and GM might go bankrupt? That makes all us environmentalists soooo sad

[ebritt]

My '07 Impala (which I bought instead of a Camry) has been in the shop 3 times now; my '05 F250 4 times; while my '07 Honda Pilot has never been in for anything.

 

All I get from the GM/Ford dealers is grief, attitude, and contempt. Nice way of keeping me as a customer...

 

As for this continued domestic bashing: people are PISSED and are voting with their dollars. I think baby boomers are the last holdouts on the "buy American" thing. Gen X and Y grew up seeing their parents screwed over with crappy American cars so they mostly buy foreign from what I see here on the West Coast. And immigrants seem to prefer Toyota and Honda, too.

 

-Chris H

 

all these cars I bought new

 

89 Mazda SE-5 B-2200..275,000 miles , ran perfect when traded it off.

91 Escort LX..............100,000 miles, no problems.

93 Escort LX wagon.....50,00 miles. no problems.

94 Ranger XLT 4.0 5 Spd...... 85,000 miles, no problems.

2000 Ranger XLT........125,000 miles, no problems.

2003 Cavalier LS Sport.....62,000 so far ,not 1 problem and I get over 30mpg, I love this car. Just wish the seats were softer. Gonna customise it, rally stripes custom interior maybe even factory turbo for 2.2 Ecotec.

2004 Explorer XLT 4wd....90,000 ,miles rebuilt,then replace trans $3600 total, replaced rear diff $1500

2006 Mazda MPV....40,000 miles so far with no troubles. Great van.

 

With the exception of the Explorer domestics have done well for me.

[silvrsvt]

all these cars I bought new

 

2004 Explorer XLT 4wd....90,000 ,miles rebuilt,then replace trans $3600 total, replaced rear diff $1500

 

Seems like a common problem with the 02+ explorers...not good. I wonder if it was addressed in the 06 redesign.

[RichardJensen]

hmmmm, Ford and GM might go bankrupt? That makes all us environmentalists soooo sad

Yeah. Businesses will still buy trucks, only they'll be buying the filthier Toyota and Nissan models. That will be real good for the environment. And Toyota and Nissan will still fight fuel economy legislation (they are both members of the AAMA).

 

Yep. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

[ebritt]

Yeah. Businesses will still buy trucks, only they'll be buying the filthier Toyota and Nissan models. That will be real good for the environment. And Toyota and Nissan will still fight fuel economy legislation (they are both members of the AAMA).

 

Yep. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

 

He doesent understand that...imports rule his world.

[jpd80]

I noticed this author did not mention Ford of Europe and their success and in other parts of world too. Ford is global company and North America makes up less of its overall revenue all the time. In fact, America itself only makes up less than 20% of global economy and that is piece of pie that is shrinking quickly as many other economies grow much faster. Certainly N.A. is still essential to Ford's success, but not as much as it used to be, especially if Ford can stop the bleeding in its home market. Forbes likes to keep telling us that we live in global economy, but then conveniently forgets this fact when analyzing global company like Ford. Ford of Europe is starting to rival North American Operations in employes, plants, revenue, sales, and in every other way and is actually making a profit. Not sure how this analyst missed this fact and did not include it in his conclusions.

 

Currently drive 2002 Taurus SES Sport,

 

Mike

 

This is so true Mike,

The rest of the Ford world is pretty much in sync or at east products are shared and there is an ordered structure to everything. Rather than accuse North America of being a corpse on legs, I see it as an opportunity to correct, align products and make the company whole again.

 

2007 is going to be another sombre year of continued restructuring and it will be interesting to see just how much ground the UAW is prepared to give to keep assembly plants in the USA. There looms large the prospect of adoption of European based patforms line C2 and EUCD2 in several years time. If no negotiation is possible, will we see more products shifted to Canada or Mexico? Would the same apply to trucks and SUVs? I'm not bashing the unions here, just trying to see how things coud play out if Ford's recovery is threatened by stronger competition. Will they be forced to do Un-American steps?

[suv_guy_19]

hmmmm, Ford and GM might go bankrupt? That makes all us environmentalists soooo sad

 

Really....that would be a great thing...thousands of people without jobs, and no fewer cars on the road...great for the planet.

[Paul Selby]

Yeah. Businesses will still buy trucks, only they'll be buying the filthier Toyota and Nissan models. That will be real good for the environment. And Toyota and Nissan will still fight fuel economy legislation (they are both members of the AAMA).

 

Yep. Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

 

No way, everyone knows anything Japanese fart's only pure oxygen out the exhaust pipe while getting 60 MPG from water.

[kpc655]

Rally the troops...

 

 

Since all three firms finance their future products off bond sales, why not amalgamate their health and pension liability in a separate organisation overseen (in part) by the companies, unions, an independent auditors/management? A "Trust": call it "American Automotive Manufacturers Opportunity Fund" (AAMO), which would ensure that Chapter 11 can't harm the long term interest of the workers who have toiled so long for the Big Three, the vested interests of each worker rolled unchanged into the fund. The billions created would allow the independent firm to invest in the market place as any fund does to offset future costs. The decisions made by the troika of governing members. Thus reducing the heavy burden of health care and retirement costs in part from the manufacturers, with ostensibly increased accountability for the fund through the union, backing by independent managers/auditors.

 

 

(Sources: GM, Toyota, Ford Motor Company, WSJ, FT)

 

The union should step up and take over all of the health and pension liabilities. It'd make negotiations with the manufacturers allot easier and they could offer their members all the benefits they want.