National Healthcare.

[unionj]

"We just can't trust the American people to make those types of choices....

Government has to make those choices for people"

(From the book "I've Always Been A Yankee Fan" by Thomas D. Kuiper, p. 20 -

Hillary to Rep. Dennis Hastert in 1993 discussing her expensive, disastrous

taxpayer-funded health care plan)

 

 

She is not talking about me but if you feel she is talking about you then I understand.

[chassisgrunt]

"We just can't trust the American people to make those types of choices....

Government has to make those choices for people"

(From the book "I've Always Been A Yankee Fan" by Thomas D. Kuiper, p. 20 -

Hillary to Rep. Dennis Hastert in 1993 discussing her expensive, disastrous

taxpayer-funded health care plan)

She is not talking about me but if you feel she is talking about you then I understand.

 

hillary doesn't want you to make those choices. she, like many other liberals, want the gov't to control your lives. it gives them more power. its scary, but some people like the idea.

[chassisgrunt]

Bull. If it wasn't for the nurses covering their asses, they would all be sued for malpractice.

 

bull? okay, so being a doctor is NOT a highly skilled profession. people amaze me.

[sandusky plastics]

Bull. If it wasn't for the nurses covering their asses, they would all be sued for malpractice.

 

Hopefully you never need surgery but if you do......tell the doctor to just stay home.....let the nurses take care of everything.

 

I suppose it's comments like that one that would make Hillary say what she said.

[unionj]

Hopefully you never need surgery but if you do......tell the doctor to just stay home.....let the nurses take care of everything.

 

I suppose it's comments like that one that would make Hillary say what she said.

 

[CSMJ]

Hate the 700 club and Pat! But trial lawyers are half the reason the consumers pay so much for any kind of insurance and if you think they do it because they care and are for justice then ask them to do it for 5%.

Why don't you work for $ 5 bucks an hour you moron, your piece makes no sence. Lawyers have bills also don't they?? So cut your own wages and then ask them too.

Answer the question-- if your kid was disabled by the doctors own hands would you get a lawyer YES or NO???? Would you seek damages for the 20K + it might take to raise the child YES or NO.

As far as Pat goes when he said he could leg curl 2,000 lbs I stopped listening to him because that's humanly impossible. By the way ask Pat to work for $ 50K like other preachers do oh no he will not.

There are some TV preachers who make about 2 maybe 3 mills, have 2 private jet planes but keep sending that check to feed the hungry and cloth the naked.

 

Edwards is against NAFTA and CAFTA and free trade in general we all better hope he wins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CSMJ]

terrible idea, the reason businesses go into business is to make money. why risk losing money for no profit. thats ridiculous.

EXACTLY my point let the govt. run it and it will be not for profit!!!!

Example in RHODE ISLAND they are working on a bill to insure everyone in the state in a so called single payer insurance. It would eliminate 25% of the cost right away in overhead expenditures. Tell me now it wouldn't work. They should run the healthcare by region not as one, kind of like how thay run the interest rate boards.

[swenson88]

Bull. If it wasn't for the nurses covering their asses, they would all be sued for malpractice.

 

 

???!!!??? Seriously??!! Seriously??!! Jesus, I thought you had some messed up ideas about the auto industry, but this takes the cake. It can take less than two years to be a nurse WITHOUT college, yet doctors must go through at least 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and then 3+ (usually an average of 4-5) years of residency before they can practice independently, yet doctors aren't skilled professionals???!! I never cease to be amazed on here . . .

[chassisgrunt]

EXACTLY my point let the govt. run it and it will be not for profit!!!!

Example in RHODE ISLAND they are working on a bill to insure everyone in the state in a so called single payer insurance. It would eliminate 25% of the cost right away in overhead expenditures. Tell me now it wouldn't work. They should run the healthcare by region not as one, kind of like how thay run the interest rate boards.

 

what other areas of life do you think the gov't does a good job of running? are you happy with how they run the education system?

[Furious1Auto]

what other areas of life do you think the gov't does a good job of running? are you happy with how they run the education system?

Medicare and Caresource both are better coverages than what we (UAW) have now! that's a weak argument.

[chassisgrunt]

Medicare and Caresource both are better coverages than what we (UAW) have now! that's a weak argument.

 

its not a weak argument at all. the federal and state gov'ts run the educational system in this country and its a disaster. so why would you want them to run healthcare? the best way to fix anything, is to get the gov't LESS involved. what has made this country the greatest in the world is the free market, not socialism.

[unionj]

Why don't you work for $ 5 bucks an hour you moron, your piece makes no sence. Lawyers have bills also don't they?? So cut your own wages and then ask them too.

Answer the question-- if your kid was disabled by the doctors own hands would you get a lawyer YES or NO???? Would you seek damages for the 20K + it might take to raise the child YES or NO.

As far as Pat goes when he said he could leg curl 2,000 lbs I stopped listening to him because that's humanly impossible. By the way ask Pat to work for $ 50K like other preachers do oh no he will not.

There are some TV preachers who make about 2 maybe 3 mills, have 2 private jet planes but keep sending that check to feed the hungry and cloth the naked.

 

Edwards is against NAFTA and CAFTA and free trade in general we all better hope he wins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

You totally miss the point. The point is provide the service for 5% of the award and not 30%. The lawyer does not deserve a $1,000,000 for 200 hours work when the money is generated from someone elses misfortune and paid by the consumer (you and me). Of course malpractice and negligence should not go unpunished but the stupid shit needs to end. The hot coffee lawsuits, lost pants at dry cleaners, slipping on ice in a mall parking lot etc etc needs to end. These are the same leech's hunting out lawsuits for thier own personal gain not because it is right or wrong.

Why do you keep bringing up preachers? I tell most all of them to phuck off so do not think I am on thier side, I hate hypocrites like the clergy.

[swenson88]

I never said they weren't skilled. I just said they were overpaid premadonnas that delegate most of the work to someone else so they can speed to the golf course in their Lamborghini. The standard nurse does more that what you think, has more face time with the patient, and basically knows more about the health of said patient because of it, yet gets paid a fraction of what the doctor does. They watch for drug interactions, and most of the time know what the patient needs, but has to wait for hours for a Doctor to show up just to sign the orders, after they have been paged over and over.

 

Just like the guy that can dunk, or hit a home run, doctors are paid more than they are worth. The health care industry as a whole needs to be looked at. Honestly, can you trust that someone is looking out for your best interests when they push medications based on what the drug company bought the staff for lunch, or the kickbacks they receive?

 

 

Okay, obviously you're working from strong bias, but trust me, as someone in the healthcare world you are way off base. I'll try and address your points individually and clear some things up. Overpaid? Depends on the field. "Doctor" is a very broad term that covers everything from your local family practitioner, pediatrician, hospitalist, surgeon, all the way to plastic surgeon to the stars. Saying all doctors are overpaid is ludicrous - work out what many small practice doctors make by the hour and it isn't much at all. Yes, exceptional surgeons live very well, and there's some other fields that do great due to demand. Lamborghinis? Maybe if you're putting tits into Hollywood celebrities, I've certainly never seen any Lamborghinis in the parking lot at any hospital in New England. Certainly lots of Lexuses, MB's and Beemers, but hell you see those at job sites. Again, look at the extent of training that doctors go through and then look at the compensation level compared to many other professional fields and it really isn't that different, not to mention the HUGE responsibility that comes with caring for human beings. Delegating work? Again depends entirely on the field. A local practioner does almost all their own work, they might have a couple nurses helping out in the practice to do menial tasks like take vitals and draw blood. A surgeon certainly doesn't delegate his surgical skills to any nurses. I assume you're referring to internists within the hospital, well if you saw what their day was like you'd change your tune. What makes more sense, having the doctor draw up all the drugs and wipe asses all day or try to figure out what is wrong with patients and how to cure them? Just like a manager manages, a doctor manages all the staff below them to get things done. A hospital is a team effort, not doctors lording over peons. And no, the standard nurse does not know more than I think. A nurse who has worked in the same field for decades probably does know almost as much as the doctor when it comes to standard problems, but the doctor also knows the very uncommon problems. A recently-trained nurse is miles below the level of a recently-trained physician. And the reason the doctor can't show up immediately when he/she is paged is most often because they're in the middle of treating another patient. Nurses care for patients in a localized area and carry very few, doctors may be in charge of caring for upwards of twenty patients each, all on different floors and areas of the hospital. I've seen nurses get mad that doctors don't immediately respond to their pagers, but say you're in the middle of draining the fluid in someone's abdomen, should you just stop to answer a page? No.

 

And no, I don't think doctors are paid more than they are worth, at least the vast majority of them. Look, there has to be at least some incentive to get a smart college kid to give up their twenties to go into medicine. Yeah it would be nice if altruism was a huge motivator, but it isn't. I think those that go into medicine all have an innate desire to help others, but let's face it, money helps. That same intelligent college student could just as easily go into the business world and make a fortune, you start slashing doctor's salaries and you're going to lose some of the brightest of the bright to more lucrative fields. I for one don't think we should try and push our smartest students away from a field where they can do some great good. As it is med school applications have been steadily falling over the past decades, already an indication that we're losing some of our best and brightest. The average doctor does not earn a real salary until at least age 30, usually more like 31-32. Plus they are an average of $200K in debt at the end of medical school, not counting loans they may have taken out for undergraduate college. Many aren't able to pay off those loans until they are in their mid-40's. Tack onto that the normal life expenses such as owning a home and raising a family and I hardly think doctors are overpaid. And the thing about drug company lunches and kickbacks is a very broad generalization and refers to a few bad apples, hardly the majority. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but your view of the healthcare world just flies in the face of all my experiences and is somewhat unsettling. I want to make sure that people don't take your words for truth.

[fmccap]

Socialized Medicine is Sicko

If the Canadian system was adopted in the U.S. -- and you assume one person per treatment - that would translate to nearly 7.3 million Americans. Not 7.3 million Americans theoretically without health care due to a lack of insurance -- but 7.3 million Americans who need medical treatment but cannot get it without being on long waiting lists.

 

How long? In Canada, it depends on the province and the type of treatment. The median wait time for medical treatment in Canada in 2006 was 17.8 weeks. However, this doesn't tell the whole story. It's not hard to find Canadians who have waited months to get an MRI, and years for some types of treatments. There are multiple kinds of waits in the Canadian system: the wait to see a specialist, the wait to get a diagnostic test, the wait to get surgery -- and then the wait for rescheduled surgery after one's initial surgical appointment has been cancelled -- sometimes multiple times -- a routine phenomenon. Waits for orthopedic surgery can be multiple years - and in the case of some elderly Canadians - forever. Waits for things like gastric bypass and sleep apnea treatment are routinely 4-5 years.

 

The real danger of adopting a system like the one in Canada is not just long waits for medical treatment. Americans would pay much higher taxes and lose important liberties while turning over personal life-and-death decisions to government bureaucrats.

[Trimdingman]

The sicker you are, the more money doctors make. That is why they keep you waiting for hours among other sick people before they see you. If the government is going to run health care, each doctor should be assigned so many people and be paid by the government on a per capita basis. The more healthy he keeps his clients, the less he spends on procedures, and the more of that money he gets to keep. That would eliminate the incentive for doctors to make up phony diseases and perform unnecessary surgery. The doctor would also have to pay a lump sum if one of his clients dies.

 

Everyone has things wrong with them. If they never know it, sometimes it is better because the treatment is worse than the disease and will cause other problems. The human body is a gold mine, and your imminent demise also has the priest and funeral director licking their chops. To other people outside your immediate family, you are better off sick and then dead. Think about the guy who is next in line for your job.

 

My grand-mother lived to be 95. She never saw a doctor until just before her death. She had 9 children, all born in her house without a doctor present.

Edited June 23, 2007 by Trimdingman

[ebritt]

It seems funny that the same group of you nutcases sit there and bitch about how deplorable the conditions are in VA and military hospitals try to tell me that its SOOOOOO important that we turn healthcare over to the government.

You guys are on crack!!

 

[sandusky plastics]

The sicker you are, the more money doctors make. That is why they keep you waiting for hours among other sick people before they see you. If the government is going to run health care, each doctor should be assigned so many people and be paid by the government on a per capita basis. The more healthy he keeps his clients, the less he spends on procedures, and the more of that money he gets to keep. That would eliminate the incentive for doctors to make up phony diseases and perform unnecessary surgery. The doctor would also have to pay a lump sum if one of his clients dies.

 

Everyone has things wrong with them. If they never know it, sometimes it is better because the treatment is worse than the disease and will cause other problems. The human body is a gold mine, and your imminent demise also has the priest and funeral director licking their chops. To other people outside your immediate family, you are better off sick and then dead. Think about the guy who is next in line for your job.

 

My grand-mother lived to be 95. She never saw a doctor until just before her death. She had 9 children, all born in her house without a doctor present.

 

There are many people that use tobacco when their doctor has told them that they need to quit but they refuse. There are many people with sugar, high cholesterol, high blood pressure, etc......their doctors have told them that they need to change their lifestyles......they refuse.

 

Why should doctors be penalized for their patients refusal to care for themselves?

Edited June 24, 2007 by sandusky plastics

[udontkno]

I understand why everyone is standing against govt run health care. Its because they buy what they hear! The big money isnt going to let you believe the truth. How else will the Health Ins. industry profit $80 billion a year? How else will drug companies profit billions a year? Now wheres the money coming from to voice the opinion for National Health Care? The average citizen? No there isnt big money pushing the message for National Health because its the middleclass that would benefit not the rich companies. Where did Bush, Clinton and all the other Presidental Candidates get there money to run for Pres? Sure the unions give a little, but the lions share are the rich coroporations. This is why we now have fucked up trade agreements that didnt benefit the working class or the poor. If our govt health care is so bad, why do the Congressmen and Senators want it so bad. They have govt run health care and their not bitchin!!!! Dont listen to the big money companies pushing their agenda, think about the big picture. We pay the most in health care and we have average health at best. This is about money, not health.

It reminds me of Ford outsourcing our seats at Atlanta Assy. Plant. We went from 40 people per shit for two shits, to Lear building our seats with 200 people. Plus their were a few trucks to move the seats from their plant to ours and a another building that had to be built and maintained. The end result was they paid their workforce less at Lear but the cost of the seats was more than we could have built in our plant. A dumb ass decision to get 80 hourly people off Fords long term payroll.

[David Johnson]

There will still be problems with any system but consider these two facts:

 

Uninsured individuals in US: 47,000,000

Uninsured individuals in UK: 0

 

Health care spending per capita US: $5300

Health care spending per capita UK: $2200

 

Look at the rest of the OECD figures and it is shameful.

 

Those 47,000,000 Americans still receive health care, it is just a $250,000 trip to the emergency room for cardiac arrest rather than a $20/month prescription for Norvasc.

[Trimdingman]

There will still be problems with any system but consider these two facts:

 

Uninsured individuals in US: 47,000,000

Uninsured individuals in UK: 0

 

Health care spending per capita US: $5300

Health care spending per capita UK: $2200

 

Look at the rest of the OECD figures and it is shameful.

 

Those 47,000,000 Americans still receive health care, it is just a $250,000 trip to the emergency room for cardiac arrest rather than a $20/month prescription for Norvasc.

 

Don't ever get sick in the UK. That "per capita" figure is misleading. If you don't work, or work for low wages, you pay nothing. If you work for Ford, you will pay four of five times that ($5300) depending on how much overtime you work. Ford pays for you now. Why should you want to pay for it yourself, plus pay for all the deadbeats? In Canada, my last pay check (one week) was gross: $2637.05; net: $1712.92. Add to that what my wife pays (gross about $1600, net about $950) It works out to over $700 a week (50% of taxes goes to health care) paid by my 2 member family for health care. Compare that with what you pay in deductions. In the US, that would be the equivalent of paying $3000 a month for health insurance.

Edited June 24, 2007 by Trimdingman

[unionj]

I understand why everyone is standing against govt run health care. Its because they buy what they hear! The big money isnt going to let you believe the truth. How else will the Health Ins. industry profit $80 billion a year? How else will drug companies profit billions a year? Now wheres the money coming from to voice the opinion for National Health Care? The average citizen? No there isnt big money pushing the message for National Health because its the middleclass that would benefit not the rich companies. Where did Bush, Clinton and all the other Presidental Candidates get there money to run for Pres? Sure the unions give a little, but the lions share are the rich coroporations. This is why we now have fucked up trade agreements that didnt benefit the working class or the poor. If our govt health care is so bad, why do the Congressmen and Senators want it so bad. They have govt run health care and their not bitchin!!!! Dont listen to the big money companies pushing their agenda, think about the big picture. We pay the most in health care and we have average health at best. This is about money, not health.

It reminds me of Ford outsourcing our seats at Atlanta Assy. Plant. We went from 40 people per shit for two shits, to Lear building our seats with 200 people. Plus their were a few trucks to move the seats from their plant to ours and a another building that had to be built and maintained. The end result was they paid their workforce less at Lear but the cost of the seats was more than we could have built in our plant. A dumb ass decision to get 80 hourly people off Fords long term payroll.

 

You mean to say thet the Medical industry in the UK make no profit and the employees do not get paid well?

I lived in the UK and let me tell you anyone who could afford it went straight to a specialist and paid out of pocket. Do you want to get in line behind people who just got off the boat? Do you want to be treated as just another piece of meat? They know you have no other choice and whether they treat you like shit or not does not matter.

AND YOU DO PAY FOR IT! HIGHER TAXATION! VAT is 17.5%, sure it is hidden but just think about a 17.5% increase in price on everything you buy.

 

Example. (taken from UK tax site)

 

Gross Pay 35,929.60

Tax free Allowances 5,035.00

Total taxable 30,894.60

Tax paid 6,538.81

National Insurance 3,158.46

Total Deductions 9,697.27

 

Income tax bands 2006-07 Rate 2007-08 Rate 2006-07 (£) 2007-08 (£)

Starting Rate 10% 10% 0 - 2,150 0 - 2,230

Basic Rate 22% 22% 2,151 - 33,300 2,231 - 34,600

Higher Rate 40% 40% Over 33,300 Over 34,600

 

 

Based on these rates that puts most of you if duel income or a little OT close to or above the minimum for the 40% tax bracket (approx $70k). Couple that with 17.5% on everything you buy and a failed retirement system makes letting the government handle everything seem wonderful.

But never fear all is not so bad because trying to understand what the people inline ahead of me are saying while I wait 18 monthes for surgery on my knee meanwhile destroying my liver and kydneys taking pain medication makes it all worth it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited June 24, 2007 by unionj

[ebritt]

You mean to say thet the Medical industry in the UK make no profit and the employees do not get paid well?

I lived in the UK and let me tell you anyone who could afford it went straight to a specialist and paid out of pocket. Do you want to get in line behind people who just got off the boat? Do you want to be treated as just another piece of meat? They know you have no other choice and whether they treat you like shit or not does not matter.

AND YOU DO PAY FOR IT! HIGHER TAXATION! VAT is 17.5%, sure it is hidden but just think about a 17.5% increase in price on everything you buy.

 

Example. (taken from UK tax site)

 

Gross Pay 35,929.60

Tax free Allowances 5,035.00

Total taxable 30,894.60

Tax paid 6,538.81

National Insurance 3,158.46

Total Deductions 9,697.27

 

Income tax bands 2006-07 Rate 2007-08 Rate 2006-07 (£) 2007-08 (£)

Starting Rate 10% 10% 0 - 2,150 0 - 2,230

Basic Rate 22% 22% 2,151 - 33,300 2,231 - 34,600

Higher Rate 40% 40% Over 33,300 Over 34,600

 

 

Based on these rates that puts most of you if duel income or a little OT close to or above the minimum for the 40% tax bracket (approx $70k). Couple that with 17.5% on everything you buy and a failed retirement system makes letting the government handle everything seem wonderful.

But never fear all is not so bad because trying to understand what the people inline ahead of me are saying while I wait 18 monthes for surgery on my knee meanwhile destroying my liver and kydneys taking pain medication makes it all worth it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

They dont give a shit how many people are covered, it is all about power...again!!!

Right now you have control over your own health care and socialsts dont like it when you have any control.

[Trimdingman]

They dont give a shit how many people are covered, it is all about power...again!!!

Right now you have control over your own health care and socialsts dont like it when you have any control.

 

I do not want to give up my freedom for a safety net, a safety net of woven gold which will cost me my freedom and make me a slave. The ones who hold the net will become the dictators. I would rather take my chances and fend for myself. I will be free, and a better person for the experience. I will have a better perspective of what is really going on, and not be like a boat without oars, sails, or rudder going with the current; or a fish in a school which changes direction when someone drops a pebble into the water.

Edited June 25, 2007 by Trimdingman

[kpc655]

There will still be problems with any system but consider these two facts:

 

Uninsured individuals in US: 47,000,000

Uninsured individuals in UK: 0

 

Health care spending per capita US: $5300

Health care spending per capita UK: $2200

 

Look at the rest of the OECD figures and it is shameful.

 

Those 47,000,000 Americans still receive health care, it is just a $250,000 trip to the emergency room for cardiac arrest rather than a $20/month prescription for Norvasc.

 

That number, 47 mil, is totally bogus! Think about it, thats nearly a third of our population. Logic alone should tell you that this number is highly questionable.

 

A few points about how the census bureau comes up with the number.

 

-If you were between jobs last year and had a lapse in coverage for 1 day, you were covered.

-if you CHOOSE not to pay for coverage, you are counted.

-Many of these people already qualify for existing programs, they choose (for whatever reason) not to take part.

 

Competition is the only way to reduce costs. not government intervention or takeover.

[udontkno]

That number, 47 mil, is totally bogus! Think about it, thats nearly a third of our population. Logic alone should tell you that this number is highly questionable.

 

A few points about how the census bureau comes up with the number.

 

-If you were between jobs last year and had a lapse in coverage for 1 day, you were covered.

-if you CHOOSE not to pay for coverage, you are counted.

-Many of these people already qualify for existing programs, they choose (for whatever reason) not to take part.

 

Competition is the only way to reduce costs. not government intervention or takeover.

 

Almost a third of our pouplation? This goes to show how uneducated people are. There are 300 million people in the U.S. I'm not beating you up, I think most people hear this shit and spew it, like they know it all. I for one dont want to live in the richest country in the world and have homeless children, uneducated people, or sick people because they didnt catch a break in life. Most hourly workers at Ford are doing the best they can! If Ford goes, so does their health ins. now what do you do? Lose everything you ever worked for because you get sick? Or do we all decide to take the profit out of the system and pay a little more in taxes. If we have National Health, we now have freedom! I dont have to stay with a sorry company like Ford, because Ford dosnt give a shit about you or your family. But right now I'm doing the best I can, and without the Union, we wouldnt have shit. So push freedom, national health care and then I can work somewhere else! I may not make the same money but at least I know my children will have health care.