Roadrunner Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 (edited) I don't want to be an alarmist or present a slippery slope argument here, but Joe Gibbs Racing is going to announce Wednesday that he will be moving to Toyota. It's the biggest open secret going right now. So first off Toyota is attempting to buy a top team. Second off, this gives them another three cars in the field. If you ever see the Craftsman Truck Series, almost all of the frontrunners use Tundras. Toyota constantly pushed its way in and now dominates. It's like a leech that continually grows. So here comes that slippery slope argument: Toyota keeps pushing, and it's going to pick up a lot of teams, I fear. Not GM stalwarts like RCR and Hendrick, but think of the littler teams. Even a team like Penske Racing is one I would consider making the switch. Penske has switched from GM to Ford to Dodge in the past 15 years. Edited September 2, 2007 by Roadrunner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted September 2, 2007 Author Share Posted September 2, 2007 In related news, Hall of Fame Racing is rumored to be on the for sale block, and this former Gibbs satellite team is said to be a prime buy for Toyota because it has a Top-35 seating -- meaning guaranteed ability to get in the field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordPaul Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Well it won't matter in a few years anyways. Nascar is declining in popularity with ratings and attendance down sharply. The GM fans who follow Gibbs drivers are going to be pissed off about this one, thats for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ford-boy Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 Can you give a link to attendance figures on the decline? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terrypm1 Posted September 2, 2007 Share Posted September 2, 2007 (edited) Can not believe gibbs will switch. In a couple years Denny will be a Sprint Cup champion. Edited September 2, 2007 by terrypm1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted September 3, 2007 Author Share Posted September 3, 2007 Can not believe gibbs will switch. In a couple years Denny will be a Sprint Cup champion. I've heard Tony is unhappy that Gibbs will switch. Tony has a corporate connection with Chevy or something - and is a shareholder in Gibbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 Well it won't matter in a few years anyways. Nascar is declining in popularity with ratings and attendance down sharply. The GM fans who follow Gibbs drivers are going to be pissed off about this one, thats for sure. My prediction: Within 10 years NASCAR will be all Toyota just as Indy Car is all Honda. Money talks and Ford and GM are fighting for survival in North America of all places and can't afford to match high stakes poker game like Toyota can. In time, GM and Ford will get out of NASCAR unless they start makeing tons of money again which I don't see happening anytime soon. Who would have thought 20 years ago that Indy would be all Honda. The Detroit Grand Prix was a fricking Honda Fest with pace car and all engines Honda. In Detroit's back yard no less. The irony of it all. The IRL should be lesson for NASCAR, but I doubt it as NASCAR is just another greedy organization like all professional sports. They all sold their soul long ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arniect Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 Few Comments on Gibb's ,Yota and Nascar. Gibbs is taking the money, who can blame him. Yota will hurt Nascar, in a few years the Cup series will be just like the trucks, one Yota racing the next. When that happens Do not say Jack Roush did not warn everyone. As far as "where is the link to lower attendance" turn on your TV and see all the "fans dressed as aluminum grandstands". Or better yet call a track and see how many tickets they have for sale. A few years ago you could not buy a ticket, now the tracks are begging you to buy them. Sellouts? With the exception of one or two tracks, those sellouts are gone. Check out the latest earnings report for Bruton Smith's Speedway Motorsports and see the part about lower attendance hurting the earnings. TV ratings are way off, lots of reasons, boring racing, late night starts and many more. I go back to when Ned Jarret ( not Dale) was the big name driver and have been a fan for 40 years. They have just about lost me. If last nights race had been at "the lady in black" my TV would have been turned on, as it was we turned it off after watching ljust ong enough to confirm plenty of EMPTY seats. Did not need to watch 4 hours of boring racing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eel Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 My prediction: Within 10 years NASCAR will be all Toyota just as Indy Car is all Honda. Money talks and Ford and GM are fighting for survival in North America of all places and can't afford to match high stakes poker game like Toyota can. In time, GM and Ford will get out of NASCAR unless they start makeing tons of money again which I don't see happening anytime soon. Who would have thought 20 years ago that Indy would be all Honda. The Detroit Grand Prix was a fricking Honda Fest with pace car and all engines Honda. In Detroit's back yard no less. The irony of it all. The IRL should be lesson for NASCAR, but I doubt it as NASCAR is just another greedy organization like all professional sports. They all sold their soul long ago. I have been a NASCAR fan for many years, but I am losing interest. When Mark Martin went into semi-retirement and Toyota started, it just became easier not to watch. If Ford can do it someway without hurting Roush and Robert Yates, I would like to see them just get out of it. Timing is everything. They should let Toyota invest a lot of cash over the next couple of years and then get out. If they and Chevy both could leave it, that would just leave Toyota and Dodge. I think it would sink the sport. That lesson would be good for both NASCAR and Toyota. They sort of deserve each other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted September 3, 2007 Share Posted September 3, 2007 I have been a NASCAR fan for many years, but I am losing interest. When Mark Martin went into semi-retirement and Toyota started, it just became easier not to watch. If Ford can do it someway without hurting Roush and Robert Yates, I would like to see them just get out of it. Timing is everything. They should let Toyota invest a lot of cash over the next couple of years and then get out. If they and Chevy both could leave it, that would just leave Toyota and Dodge. I think it would sink the sport. That lesson would be good for both NASCAR and Toyota. They sort of deserve each other. I remember going to the Detroit Gran Prix when Nigel Mansell and Mike Andretti drove with Ford power. It was fun seeing the Ford logo sprinkled throughout the track area. Trans Am had a real competition between GM and Ford and Ford Mustang won that day in Trans Am race before CART cars race. When CART was no more that signaled end of that racing in my mind with no more engine competiton. I was cheering for Ford cars the times I went, not who was driving them. Now IRL is all Honda and no copetition there at all and nothing but Honda love fest and no particular driver identification. I could care less which Brazilian wins. Go to IRL race at MIS and no one is there. No one cares anymore other than specatacle of Indianapolis, and even there it's not the same anymore. I believe that many NASCAR fans cheer for Ford, GM, or Dodge, and now Toyota. But if Toyota with all its money starts winning there consistently as it adds more and more teams, yeah, I think you will see Ford, GM, and Chrysler hit the road and look for different racing venue without Toyota/Honda money present. I would personally like to see Trans Am come back like in the 70's with Parnelli Jones. I used to go to MIS when they had Trans Am race with Parnelli Jones in Mustang and Mark Donahue in Camaro going at it. And they had Can Cam there too with McLaren racing cars pulling over 800hp and to this day fastest race car ever. With Camaro coming back, bring that racing back where modification is kept to minimum and you really have Mustang and Camaro going at it. Maybe Chrysler can do pony car and join. Since Toyota and Honda don't do sport coupes, then Ford, GM, and Chrysler could have field to itself, and have real manufacturer racing going on with true stock cars only slightly modified for racing. I would pay to see that. You could probably pull in the NASCAR fans tired of seeing pure race cars with different headlamp stickers only difference between Ford, GM, Dodge, and Toyota. Make the racing truly fun by having a real Mustang racing a real Camaro. Keep modifications to a limit that doesn't make the car a pure race car and keep its roots true. I want to see a Mustang beat a Camaro, not a race car with Mustang sticker beat the same race car with Camaro sticker. That is nothing more than BS. I want to be able to identify more with the manufacturere than the prima donna, rock star driver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ralph Greene Posted September 5, 2007 Share Posted September 5, 2007 They are just pure race cars. It's just a business decision. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goinbroke2 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 They are just pure race cars. It's just a business decision. They are JUST racecars...yup that pretty much sums up the problem. Just a racecar, and give all the credit/glamour/etc to some primadonna driver. It's no longer a sport of racing, it's an entertainment venue that cars are in some way involved. Personally I don't give a rats ass who is driving, I want a ford to win. Problem is, there are more "mindless masses" who want a clean cut pretty boy to win regardless of what he's driving or IF he's even driving. As long as they see crashes and excitement they are happy. That's one reason I don't like demo derby's or monster truck's getting smashed up for that matter. Ever see blow up competition? run a perfectly good engine wide open till it blows up. That's bad enough, but the mindless vacant grins on the morons watching really pisses me off. I don't like the idea of toyota in nascar or the car of tomorrow for that matter, but it's been decree'd. Obviously, nascar would rather have a million fans wanting a freak show, buying 10 tons of memorabilia than a hundred thousand hard core auto fans buying 1 ton of memorabilia. It's just numbers to them. Money in their pocket. Whether it degrades anything or not is irrelevent. Me, Me, Me, I, I, I. Whatever, it just sucks to see something else american get bought up and completely modified to suit foreigners. (ala IRL, disney, sony)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Obviously, nascar would rather have a million fans wanting a freak show, buying 10 tons of memorabilia than a hundred thousand hard core auto fans buying 1 ton of memorabilia. It's just numbers to them. Money in their pocket. Whether it degrades anything or not is irrelevent. Me, Me, Me, I, I, I. Exactly! How selfish for a business to want to make money! Last time I checked Toyota was #2, ahead of Ford. Things change. Get over it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goinbroke2 Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Exactly! How selfish for a business to want to make money! Last time I checked Toyota was #2, ahead of Ford. Things change. Get over it. Did you make an effort to miss the point? I agree a business should make money and the more the merrier. And if they decide to fuck everyone or everything over to make the almighty buck then that is their right too. However, when they get quick profit at the expense of the core fans who got them there in the first place I do see a problem. Using your logic, ford was right to demand every aftermarket company who sold performance parts or every message board that had ford or mustang etc in it's name having to give royalties to ford. Yes ford might of made a few bucks off of royalties, but imagine what the owner of "mustang performance" or whatever thought? These pro ford loyalist who ONLY build and race fords and defend them at every turn are slapped in the face because they are naming their business after what they specialize in? You really missed my point, I know WHY they are doing it, and I agree nascar can do whatever it wants, I just think it is short sighted and overall bad for nascar. ESPECIALLY if they end up like IRL in a few years which is what was referred to. As far as "getting over" toyota being #2 and not ford, no I will not and if there were people like you who "accept" losing in '39 the war would have been much different! (oh wait, there was people like you back then, the US didn't get involved in the war until after it was directly attacked in Dec '41!! 3 years late to the party!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted September 6, 2007 Author Share Posted September 6, 2007 Whatever, it just sucks to see something else american get bought up and completely modified to suit foreigners. (ala IRL, disney, sony)? I'm not discrediting what you wrote, but Sony always played the Toyota game of being "American" when actually being Japanese. At least in my lifetime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 Did you make an effort to miss the point? I agree a business should make money and the more the merrier. And if they decide to fuck everyone or everything over to make the almighty buck then that is their right too. However, when they get quick profit at the expense of the core fans who got them there in the first place I do see a problem. Using your logic, ford was right to demand every aftermarket company who sold performance parts or every message board that had ford or mustang etc in it's name having to give royalties to ford. Yes ford might of made a few bucks off of royalties, but imagine what the owner of "mustang performance" or whatever thought? These pro ford loyalist who ONLY build and race fords and defend them at every turn are slapped in the face because they are naming their business after what they specialize in? You really missed my point, I know WHY they are doing it, and I agree nascar can do whatever it wants, I just think it is short sighted and overall bad for nascar. ESPECIALLY if they end up like IRL in a few years which is what was referred to. As far as "getting over" toyota being #2 and not ford, no I will not and if there were people like you who "accept" losing in '39 the war would have been much different! (oh wait, there was people like you back then, the US didn't get involved in the war until after it was directly attacked in Dec '41!! 3 years late to the party!) Now you've completely missed MY point. They're not kicking anyone out of NASCAR - last time I checked there were Chevys, Fords and Dodges right beside the Toyotas. Did it ever occur to you that they might be bringing IN more Toyota fans than Chevy/Ford/Dodge fans that they might lose? Who would stop watching NASCAR just because they ALLOW Toyotas to race? Why wouldn't a Chevy/Ford/Dodge fan relish the opportunity for their favorite brand to compete with and BEAT Toyota instead of hiding behind rules that artificially limit competition? Chevy, Ford and Dodge will never beat Toyota in the sales market by ignoring them or hiding from them. They need to take them on and beat them with better products. Why should NASCAR be any different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted September 6, 2007 Author Share Posted September 6, 2007 I was watching the pre-show for CMT's "Dale" and they had on the 2000 Winston 500. Notice the nice range of cars: You have Chevy battling with Pontiac battling with Ford. Pontiac was with the almighty Gibbs. Ford had strength with Roush and, yes, Wood Brothers (Burton in the Citgo #21). Chevy wasn't nearly as dominant. I don't know what changed but I do believe the 2004 season onward got us into this homogenization of being the Chevy show. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thunder road Posted September 6, 2007 Share Posted September 6, 2007 (edited) I would personally like to see Trans Am come back like in the 70's with Parnelli Jones. I used to go to MIS when they had Trans Am race with Parnelli Jones in Mustang and Mark Donahue in Camaro going at it. And they had Can Cam there too with McLaren racing cars pulling over 800hp and to this day fastest race car ever. With Camaro coming back, bring that racing back where modification is kept to minimum and you really have Mustang and Camaro going at it. Maybe Chrysler can do pony car and join. Since Toyota and Honda don't do sport coupes, then Ford, GM, and Chrysler could have field to itself, and have real manufacturer racing going on with true stock cars only slightly modified for racing. I would pay to see that. You could probably pull in the NASCAR fans tired of seeing pure race cars with different headlamp stickers only difference between Ford, GM, Dodge, and Toyota. Make the racing truly fun by having a real Mustang racing a real Camaro. Keep modifications to a limit that doesn't make the car a pure race car and keep its roots true. I want to see a Mustang beat a Camaro, not a race car with Mustang sticker beat the same race car with Camaro sticker. That is nothing more than BS. I want to be able to identify more with the manufacturere than the prima donna, rock star driver. This would be the greatest thing that could happen to racing, bringing back the TA series with stock bodied Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers. As to Toyota and Gibbs, strictly money, and NASCARs desire to bring in Toyota may turn out to be the nail in the coffin for NASCAR and its Southern roots fans. NASCAR "was" the last bastioin of purely American racing. While there will be some new Toyota fans drawn in, NASCAR is losing popularity. I suspect the Gibbs deal will be highly unpopular. I dont know how long Stewart is under contract for, but he wont be staying with Gibbs IMO after it expires to drive a Toyota. Add to all this Roush now planning a Silverado edition, and how long will Roush stay with NASCAR and Ford. Edited September 6, 2007 by thunder road Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ebritt Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 NASCAR is dying a slow painful death. Who wants to see a field full of Camrys racing??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark B. Morrow Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 I pretty much lost interest when the last T-Birds were replaced with "Taurus" bodies and the last vestige of Stock Car racing was gone. Nascars glory days were the '50s to the mid '70s. A trans Am series with Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers would be great. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 A trans Am series with Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers would be great. Let's start next April. I bet Ford wins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FordBuyer Posted September 7, 2007 Share Posted September 7, 2007 I pretty much lost interest when the last T-Birds were replaced with "Taurus" bodies and the last vestige of Stock Car racing was gone. Nascars glory days were the '50s to the mid '70s. A trans Am series with Mustangs, Camaros and Challengers would be great. Makes sense doesn't it? After all, Fusion, and Camry are family cars, and the Monte Carlo I believe will be discontinued. And the Impala is basically a family car. Is there much sense in racing family cars that are FWD. Mustang and Camaro are cars for enthusiasts. In NASCAR, I don't even think the racing is the show anymore. The show seems to be the craziness that goes on in the infield with women flashing their breasts like a mini Mardi Gras every week. Go to Lemans and there is a festival going on with rides and everything. Same goes on at the Detroit Grand Prix with all that can be seen is helmets flashing by with the big, concrete dividers in way. Back in the 70's when I saw road course racing at MIS and the Atlantic Series at Waterford Race Track in MI, you could see how the drivers set the car up for the curve and the ones who pushed to the limit and the ones who braked a little earlier. I will never forget Can Am Racing at MIS in 70's. There was an Austrian racer name Jo Siefert who was the most fearless race driver I have ever seen. He drove for Porsche and at this particular race was giving up at least 200 hp to the big Group 7 Mclarens with their over 800hp. So he tried to compensate by braking past the brake points and I remember there was a bump in track as you came off of infield onto MIS banking and every car would hit brake before bump but his. Everyone there cheered him on as he almost could stay with those massively powerful Can Am racers. I remember thinking that this racer didn't have a long lifespan, but he sure was a joy to watch as he pushed that car to the limit. Anyway, he died later that year in crash in Europe racing. Not surprising. Of course Mark Donahue died racing in Formula 1 when his car went under catch fence and basically beheaded him. I believe he drove in Can Am series after his Trans Am duels with Parnelli Jones who was fearless racer too. He always pushed that Mustang to its limit. Those were the days. And they didn't have all the safety equipment back then they do now and it was more dangerous to driver and specatator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted September 7, 2007 Author Share Posted September 7, 2007 Of course Mark Donahue died racing in Formula 1 when his car went under catch fence and basically beheaded him. Holy gee I never knew that he died so gruesomely - I thought it was an impact death -- beheaded?? (!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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