New RWD platform

[SysEng]

Yes, because BOF is outdated tech and should be dumped from cars.

Like I said a hundred times, cool looks will never save the Vic. The chassis is the Vic's main problem and the only way to fix that is by dumping the Panther platform.

 

Hate to burst your bubble, but a stock "panther" ( eg the current '07 GM LS ) is a very sharp handler. In point of fact a "panther" is a much better handler in urban setting than most euro "sport" sedans. And I have seen timed tests to prove this. Y'all need to get with it... :boring: it is now in fact 2007

 

BTW, what kind of 'lincoln fan" doesn't know that the TownCar is Lincoln??? :shades:

[NickF1011]

BTW, what kind of 'lincoln fan" doesn't know that the TownCar is Lincoln??? :shades:

 

I'm sure he's aware the Town Car is a Lincoln, but if he owns any other Lincoln, he's probably too embarrassed to admit his car is the same brand that sells that ancient sled.

[LincolnFan]

Hate to burst your bubble, but a stock "panther" ( eg the current '07 GM LS ) is a very sharp handler. In point of fact a "panther" is a much better handler in urban setting than most euro "sport" sedans. And I have seen timed tests to prove this. Y'all need to get with it... :boring: it is now in fact 2007

 

BTW, what kind of 'lincoln fan" doesn't know that the TownCar is Lincoln??? :shades:

 

I am sure the Panther is such a great handler.</sarcasm>

 

Town Car? Do we have to bring that "Lincoln" up? I am sorry but the Town Car (to me) has been dead for over 10 years.

[Edstock]

Are you serious? Looks isn't the panther's main problem. The chassis is the panther's main problem.

 

Look, for the last time, the Panther chassis is just fine. If they wanted to throw more money into fabrication, they could use more hydro-formed steel in it than they do currently.

 

The Panther chassis is easily up-gradable for the 2 areas that need improvement: the rear suspension and gas tank. A Mustang-type rear-end will make a good-handling car even better, and the gas tank can be re-done.

 

And that's about it. The front suspension design is fine — have you ever seen the A-arms on a CV, GM or TC? — they are way cool.

 

The Panthers need the 3-valve 4.6 and a 6-speed. Maybe the 5.4 will fit. An aluminum block option would be nice. The engine bay's size makes the TF 3.5 a logical choice too. Hell, the stock all-alloy 3.5 makes more power than a standard 4.6 Panther, something like 35hp, and weighs less than the iron-block 4.6 — maybe the police might give 'em a try.

 

For what it would cost to do, the immediate pay-back as the gigantic fleet of Panthers would get an accelerated change-over to a car based on what they are familiar with, but with the 3-valve 4.6, has 70+ hp and 2 more gears, giving better performance and economy in a $3-4 a gallon operating environment?

 

This might allow Ford Oz and Ford US more time to get the Panther's replacement really right.

[jpd80]

Good post Edstock,

Most of what you said will probably turn up in the 2009 Panthers due out next year.

I suspect the 2009 Panther will run for fleets until about 2011.

 

To get the Falcon to America will cost about US$150 Million and a LWB version about the same again.

[LincolnFan]

Look, for the last time, the Panther chassis is just fine. If they wanted to throw more money into fabrication, they could use more hydro-formed steel in it than they do currently.

 

The Panther chassis is easily up-gradable for the 2 areas that need improvement: the rear suspension and gas tank. A Mustang-type rear-end will make a good-handling car even better, and the gas tank can be re-done.

 

And that's about it. The front suspension design is fine — have you ever seen the A-arms on a CV, GM or TC? — they are way cool.

 

The Panthers need the 3-valve 4.6 and a 6-speed. Maybe the 5.4 will fit. An aluminum block option would be nice. The engine bay's size makes the TF 3.5 a logical choice too. Hell, the stock all-alloy 3.5 makes more power than a standard 4.6 Panther, something like 35hp, and weighs less than the iron-block 4.6 — maybe the police might give 'em a try.

 

For what it would cost to do, the immediate pay-back as the gigantic fleet of Panthers would get an accelerated change-over to a car based on what they are familiar with, but with the 3-valve 4.6, has 70+ hp and 2 more gears, giving better performance and economy in a $3-4 a gallon operating environment?

 

This might allow Ford Oz and Ford US more time to get the Panther's replacement really right.

 

Did you forget the Panther's main problem? Weight. How are you going to lower that?

[Edstock]

Did you forget the Panther's main problem? Weight. How are you going to lower that?

 

 

But your original comment was about the chassis, which is not overweight.

 

Want a lighter Panther, put a lighter body on the frame. Duh.

 

An all-alloy engine would also help.

 

Yet the S-class and 7-series and A-8 pork up heavier than a CV or TC, with their monococque construction and alloy engines.

[matthewq4b]

The only problem with the panther chassis is the rear suspension. And no wonder the geometry has not been changed signifganltly in 29 years. BOF has many adantages over unit. You get lighter vehicles in the larger end of the spectrum. Cost over the long term BOF is cheaper to produce as You do not have to redesign the whole chassis to make signifigant body changes. Or recalculate crash worthyness with every change.

Look at the 91's and 92's Hard to belive they share the exact same frame and base body structure panels.

 

the 92 update was conperhensive gave you a vehicle that is 100 percent different did not require 100% new sheet metal, IIRC only about 60-65% of the sheet metal stampings were changed to a get the 92 body's

 

Matthew

[NickF1011]

I don't know why anyone bothers to debate this topic anymore. Let's look at the facts:

 

1. Crown Victoria is now fleet-only and will NEVER be sold retail again.

 

2. The Town Car isn't even listed on Lincoln's website anymore.

 

3. We KNOW the Huntsman platform is coming.

 

4. We KNOW the Panther platform will be lucky to survive past 2011.

 

Given those 4 things alone, it is a foregone conclusion that the Panthers WILL be replaced. All of the justification and arguing in the world will NOT change that fact. It's time to embrace the future, folks.

[TomServo92]

I don't know why anyone bothers to debate this topic anymore. Let's look at the facts:

 

1. Crown Victoria is now fleet-only and will NEVER be sold retail again.

 

2. The Town Car isn't even listed on Lincoln's website anymore.

 

3. We KNOW the Huntsman platform is coming.

 

4. We KNOW the Panther platform will be lucky to survive past 2011.

 

Given those 4 things alone, it is a foregone conclusion that the Panthers WILL be replaced. All of the justification and arguing in the world will NOT change that fact. It's time to embrace the future, folks.

 

People will always resist change.

[Bob Rosadini]

Given those 4 things alone, it is a foregone conclusion that the Panthers WILL be replaced. All of the justification and arguing in the world will NOT change that fact. It's time to embrace the future, folks.

 

I think the point has been made that for not much money, you could continue to get decent sales numbers out of a very profitable platform.

 

Again, my 07 Sport averages close to 23 mpg in mixed driving. It is a helol of a value for what you get. And its bullet proof. And its built in a plant with a good build rep that is drastically underutilized right now- underutilaztion means sunk costs or put another way, production for a few incremental dollars.

 

My hope is this new guy from Yoda will look around and see what can be done in the short term to bolster the numbers. the Panther is one platform for sure and so is the Ranger. And speaking of that, given Yoda's success with the Tacoma lets hope he sees that its time to get the Ranger and Twin Cities working again. Remember it wasn't that long ago that Ranger was oe of the top 10 i sales figures.

[LincolnFan]

But your original comment was about the chassis, which is not overweight.

 

Want a lighter Panther, put a lighter body on the frame. Duh.

 

An all-alloy engine would also help.

 

Yet the S-class and 7-series and A-8 pork up heavier than a CV or TC, with their monococque construction and alloy engines.

 

They are relative, BOFs will always weight more than unitbodies.

 

Yea and if you haven't noticed, these three vehicles are chock-full of electronic gadgets and safety equipment, those 3 German cars are easily capable of getting 7 or 8 stars out of 5.

[NickF1011]

I think the point has been made that for not much money, you could continue to get decent sales numbers out of a very profitable platform.

 

It's a valid point, but it's something that is just NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. Ford is moving on. There is no changing this fact.

[matthewq4b]

They are relative, BOFs will always weight more than unitbodies.

 

Yea and if you haven't noticed, these three vehicles are chock-full of electronic gadgets and safety equipment, those 3 German cars are easily capable of getting 7 or 8 stars out of 5.

 

 

Sorry your wrong on that one. The sable tips the scales at 3670LBS the GM 4117 a differance of 447 LBS

 

that alone can be made up with the extra weight of the Engine rear axel and drive shaft. That does even count the fact that the car is a larger over all vehicle.

 

Also the GM is any thing but a weight saving design.

 

Also Nick you better get the junk outta your eye's The TC is so on Lincolns website as it is on the Ford one.

 

Jeeze talk about blinded by hate.

 

TC On Lincon.com

 

 

 

Matthew

[NickF1011]

Also Nick you better get the junk outta your eye's The TC is so on Lincolns website as it is on the Ford one.

 

Jeeze talk about blinded by hate.

 

TC On Lincon.com

 

 

 

Matthew

 

Like I'd bother looking at Lincoln's website. Someone else mentioned it wasn't there. Forgive me for actually taking someone's word for something. Seems everyone on here is in some sort of pissing match to find any little tiny error or omission someone else makes.

 

Here's one thing I can say for sure: The Town Car, Grand Marquis, and Crown Victoria won't be on ANY of their sites come 2011. Good riddance.

[Edstock]

They are relative, BOFs will always weight more than unitbodies.

 

Yea and if you haven't noticed, these three vehicles are chock-full of electronic gadgets and safety equipment, those 3 German cars are easily capable of getting 7 or 8 stars out of 5.

 

Not necessarily. An indication of this is seen in comparing the weights of the BMW X-5 and the Mercedes SUV with the Explorer and its iron engine block or the Navigator.

 

Another example is that the BOF Corvette ZO6 weighs less than a 911, according to Peter Dilorenzo at Autoextremist.

 

Personally, I prefer composite monococque construction, pioneered by Jim Hall and the Chaparral 2.

 

 

August 1965, Mosport Player's 200. Jim's the dude with the white western hat.

[Traveler]

The Panther with the new platform and the HPP makes for a very stable handling car. In fact, I'd bet that most on here who are all too quick to criticize it, hasn't even driven one at all, much less in the past 5 years. Ford made substantial enhancements in suspension geometry and the frame itself is ultra-stiff. I would definitely go as far to say that its very Mustang-like...comparable to the 99-04 Mustangs that I've owned. Power is likewise solid in recent years. If you haven't driven one and only look at the numbers on paper, you know not what you speak of.

 

The Panther with the handling package can takes turns and curves with surprising agility for a 2-ton sedan. In fact, I drive the Vic hardly any different than I did my Mustangs. I've seen quite a few of those Euro and Japanese sedans try to keep up and pull out of a sweeping curve and then back off for a few miles apparently thinking it was one of those "souped-up" Ford Interceptors. The HPP Vic is capable of slalom speeds of around 62 mph according to one Motor Trend article from some time ago.

 

I can sit right here and tell you two items on the Panthers lead people to think that there is a compromise in handling:

 

1. Tires. The tires on the Panthers are designed for all-season performance and the stock width is not enough for the size of the car IMO.

 

2. Speed-sensitive steering. Right here...right here is where people assume the Panther is compromised. From my experience, the Panther is a car that is very sensitive at highway speed to steering input and a major contributing factor is...TIRE PRESSURE.

 

I have noted that the Crown Vic is much more poised on the road at interstate speed when tire pressure is accurate for both front tires and both rear tires. One or two pounds off makes the car feel more darty and the speed sensitive steering doesn't help here. The speed-sensitive steering is a nice feature, but its one that requires the driver to keep a close watch on tire pressure or the car feels like it wants to wander more. The HPP package dictates a higher tire pressure for the rear tires, as well. Actually, as rare as it is, Ford's recommendation for rear tire pressure is the same as tire's maximum tire pressure of 35 psi.

 

In summary, the HPP package makes a B-I-G difference in handling of the Panthers. It does firm up the ride some, but not in a sports-car like fashion. It just removes the bobbing and floating typical of the standard suspension. The handling package is a bit of a rarity because typical Panther buyers want those soft sprung attributes and not the tradeoff for improved handling. Coupled with the improvements made a few years ago with the suspension and the frame and you've got a good handling car, but packaged in an atypical sedan for the common buyer. For the Mustang owner who needs more room and loves the notion of old-school FoMoCo performance, the Crown Vic with the HPP is a natural. Sure, its seen it heyday and soon enough a replacement will arrive. I will take a "wait and see" approach to that. However, I'm always pleased to take the Vic out on the road. I do miss my Mustangs, but I never look at the Vic, roll my eyes and say I wish I didn't have to drive it. It is a very pleasing car to drive anywhere. It just lacks the visual flair and from the driver seat, I don't care so much about that anymore.

[matthewq4b]

Like I'd bother looking at Lincoln's website. Someone else mentioned it wasn't there. Forgive me for actually taking someone's word for something. Seems everyone on here is in some sort of pissing match to find any little tiny error or omission someone else makes.

 

Here's one thing I can say for sure: The Town Car, Grand Marquis, and Crown Victoria won't be on ANY of their sites come 2011. Good riddance.

 

 

If your going to state items as fact and verify the source it calls in to doubt evry thing you post as fact.

Especially some thing that takes 2 seconds to check. Do get pissy cause you got your ass burned for posting misinformation.

 

And you have the crystal ball ? Seems to me the same thing was said for 2008-2009,2005,2003, etc seems as soon those dates arrive the panther is dead crowd changes the time line by a few years.

 

As long as sales stay above profit making levels they will be made. And things are goign to have to sink really low with 10K profit plus per unit for that to happen.

 

Fundementally their is nothing wrong with the chassis. Nothing that some well earned updates would not fix.

No one has given one single reaspon based in fact wy it could not be done.

 

For the longest time every one hear said that RWD large sedan market was dead even though most all the Panther mafia said it was long from dead and was just lacking a modern entry. The LX cars sort of put that question to rest.

 

Keep wishing the Panthers away. But bottom line is since the D3 cars came out the Panthers have out profited them consistantly. Until Ford can come up with a vaible RWD full size alternative they will be around.

 

Hopefully the Huntsmen will be it. But it pretty much sucks that Fords Oldest sedans can out perform their newest were it counts the bottom line.

 

Love them or hate them one thing the Panthners have done is consitantly make money in the face of neglect and abondonment. To bad Ford had not been proactive with them and half a dozen other models. Maybe they would not be sucking hind tit if they had.

 

Ford still has 3 years of sales left minimum, they can either let them wither for 3 more years or do some thing and actually see a sales increase in segment for a change. My is that not a novel idea actually doing some thing to increase sales in an exsisting customer base.

 

 

Matthew

[NickF1011]

If your going to state items as fact and verify the source it calls in to doubt evry thing you post as fact.

Especially some thing that takes 2 seconds to check. Do get pissy cause you got your ass burned for posting misinformation.

 

And you have the crystal ball ? Seems to me the same thing was said for 2008-2009,2005,2003, etc seems as soon those dates arrive the panther is dead crowd changes the time line by a few years.

 

As long as sales stay above profit making levels they will be made. And things are goign to have to sink really low with 10K profit plus per unit for that to happen.

 

Fundementally their is nothing wrong with the chassis. Nothing that some well earned updates would not fix.

No one has given one single reaspon based in fact wy it could not be done.

 

For the longest time every one hear said that RWD large sedan market was dead even though most all the Panther mafia said it was long from dead and was just lacking a modern entry. The LX cars sort of put that question to rest.

 

Keep wishing the Panthers away. But bottom line is since the D3 cars came out the Panthers have out profited them consistantly. Until Ford can come up with a vaible RWD full size alternative they will be around.

 

Hopefully the Huntsmen will be it. But it pretty much sucks that Fords Oldest sedans can out perform their newest were it counts the bottom line.

 

Love them or hate them one thing the Panthners have done is consitantly make money in the face of neglect and abondonment. To bad Ford had not been proactive with them and half a dozen other models. Maybe they would not be sucking hind tit if they had.

 

Ford still has 3 years of sales left minimum, they can either let them wither for 3 more years or do some thing and actually see a sales increase in segment for a change. My is that not a novel idea actually doing some thing to increase sales in an exsisting customer base.

 

 

Matthew

 

 

 

There will be no reprieve for the Panthers. Get over it. It's not a matter of what Ford COULD do or SHOULD do. It's a matter of what they ARE doing. And what they ARE doing is letting them rot until they cancel them.

 

:rip:

[LincolnFan]

If your going to state items as fact and verify the source it calls in to doubt evry thing you post as fact.

Especially some thing that takes 2 seconds to check. Do get pissy cause you got your ass burned for posting misinformation.

 

And you have the crystal ball ? Seems to me the same thing was said for 2008-2009,2005,2003, etc seems as soon those dates arrive the panther is dead crowd changes the time line by a few years.

 

As long as sales stay above profit making levels they will be made. And things are goign to have to sink really low with 10K profit plus per unit for that to happen.

 

Fundementally their is nothing wrong with the chassis. Nothing that some well earned updates would not fix.

No one has given one single reaspon based in fact wy it could not be done.

 

For the longest time every one hear said that RWD large sedan market was dead even though most all the Panther mafia said it was long from dead and was just lacking a modern entry. The LX cars sort of put that question to rest.

 

Keep wishing the Panthers away. But bottom line is since the D3 cars came out the Panthers have out profited them consistantly. Until Ford can come up with a vaible RWD full size alternative they will be around.

 

Hopefully the Huntsmen will be it. But it pretty much sucks that Fords Oldest sedans can out perform their newest were it counts the bottom line.

 

Love them or hate them one thing the Panthners have done is consitantly make money in the face of neglect and abondonment. To bad Ford had not been proactive with them and half a dozen other models. Maybe they would not be sucking hind tit if they had.

 

Ford still has 3 years of sales left minimum, they can either let them wither for 3 more years or do some thing and actually see a sales increase in segment for a change. My is that not a novel idea actually doing some thing to increase sales in an exsisting customer base.

Matthew

 

There's one thing you have to understand. The panthers are going to die no matter what. The only reason keeping Ford from doing that is the fucking profit margin. They make more on Vics than what they make on some F-150 models, it only costs Ford 15K to make a Vic, and w/o rebates a Vic costs 25K. Do the math.

[SysEng]

I am sure the Panther is such a great handler.</sarcasm>

 

You don't have to believe me. I didn't believe it when I actually saw it!

 

You bet the "panther" rolls and pitches in a pretty embarrassing way.

 

You bet the "euro" sedans were ( mostly ) like ballerinas going thru their paces.

 

Bottom line in maneuverability the "panther" demolished these cars

on timed test anyway. And unlike the FWD contingents it stayed

ON the road. Now I understand why I see all these FWD cars

going "offroad" in snow.

 

In braking, the performance was fractionally worse on a "panther",

and the turbo equipped jobbies would beat the 4.6... after they got

up passed any street legal speeds.

 

There's one thing you have to understand. The panthers are going to die no matter what. The only reason keeping Ford from doing that is the fucking profit margin. They make more on Vics than what they make on some F-150 models, it only costs Ford 15K to make a Vic, and w/o rebates a Vic costs 25K. Do the math.

 

If any corporate exec told me anything like this about any product, he'd be fired! In business when profits stop talking the business folds! In another thread someone stated the exact opposite. Given the dire circumstances at Ford, the "panthers" will survive past 2011 just as they did past 1985. It was cheaper to remodel them than to follow GMC into the FWD abyss back then and its cheaper to restyle ( if they ever find anyone with something approaching taste ) than just about anything else...

[SysEng]

The Panther with the new platform and the HPP makes for a very stable handling car. In fact, I'd bet that most on here who are all too quick to criticize it, hasn't even driven one at all, much less in the past 5 years. Ford made substantial enhancements in suspension geometry and the frame itself is ultra-stiff. I would definitely go as far to say that its very Mustang-like...comparable to the 99-04 Mustangs that I've owned. Power is likewise solid in recent years. If you haven't driven one and only look at the numbers on paper, you know not what you speak of.

 

Well, I'm driving a 2007 GM-LS with everything. Yup, this is reaching

well into the "blue hair special" range. And yes, it is all you say.

 

In fact, the handling is so precise, I'm getting a little worried. This thing

takes corners that my pre '02 "panther" would squeal rubber on... not so

much as a peep from it. It goes exactly where you point it, even when ( in my

20+ years experience ) I'd expect it to go somewhere else :o

 

My concern is what happens when it breaks loose. If it skids in a

predictable fashion, ( as opposed to losing all control ) ... this is going

to be one very fine ride! :shades:

[jpd80]

Only three factories build RWD cars across Ford globally - STAP, Dearborn and Broadmeadows:

 

To increase efficiency, the separate RWD groups need to share as much as is practically possible.

All RWDs could start by sharing Electrical Systems, Power trains and Suspensions modules.

 

Electrical Systems - Joint development between FoA and FNA

Powertrains - common engines and transmissions developed in the USA

Suspension modules - Variations of FoA's Virtual Pivot Front suspension and Control Blade IRS.

 

If you look at Mulally's efficiency drive, this satisfies the criterion with the least immediate upheval.

It gives the Mustang and Falcon real scales of economy that can extend to unitary frames as well.

If a LWB Huntsman is developed to replace the Panthers, it can share much more of the framing

and construction techniques for Flex manufacturing. If Ford elects to keep the large cars on BOF,

The Panthers will receive most of the benefits without sacrificing their BOF constructiuon.

 

The FoA CB IRS is a bolt in structure that weighs the same as a SRA but has the added advantage of enabling handling and ride quality to be tuned separately. It's addition to the North American cars would fulfill a promise made by FoA engineers at Ford 2000 to supply an affordable and light IRS.

 

The Virtual Pivot front suspension replaces the lower A-Arms with two struts that form a virtual pivot enabling superior handling road holding. The panther would continue with inboard springs attached to the new lower strut, this would be the only major variation needed to the standard virtual Pivot design.

 

Using modern compartment packaging designs, it's possible to build a 114" wheelbase Crown Victoria at 202" long or about 10" shorter

than the current Crown Victoria. Similar in size to the Taurus and FoA Fairlane, this would achieve the dual goals of weight reduction and improved cabin space without sacrificing trunk volume. The new Crown Victoria would have improved rear legroom similar to the Taurus

but the cabin width would be 3" more. Couple the above design to an ultra new body style and you have an economical showroom winner.

 

This is the least invasive option for rationalising RWD cars across Ford globally as the cars are

only built in three factories now - STAP, Dearborn and Broadmeadows.

 

I'm sure that Ford will do something radical in the next two years but whether it's totally with Huntsman or not

is not clear, but I do know they'll be looking to save as much money as possible, use as much as commonly

possible and change (move) production lines as little as possible.

Edited October 14, 2007 by jpd80

[Pioneer]

Only three factories build RWD cars across Ford globally - STAP, Dearborn and Broadmeadows:

 

Dearborn doesn't make RWD cars, they make F-150's. I think you mean Flat Rock (Mustang).

[jpd80]

Dearborn doesn't make RWD cars, they make F-150's. I think you mean Flat Rock (Mustang).

Sorry about that, I missed the switch for the 2005.

I just think the rationalisation of RWD vehicles isn't as hard or as complex as is sometimes made out.

Much can be achieved through using common parts, folding and pressing metal is always where the differences

are and should be unique to the particular car - stops the badge engineering look.