PowerShift Transmissions

[Deanh]

If GM goes under, Ford gets their sales. If GM went under, it would save all auto companies that could last for atleast a year.

 

Only problem would be if GM got a big bail out and Ford did not.

no no no...judging by the handouts the whole point is to bailout the failures and penalize/ ignore those standing their own ground that ren't quite their yet...come on....these are political decisions at their finest... ( and paybacks for prior contributions and support.... )

[theoldwizard]

This was just 1 line in the Ford Congressional Submission Addendum.

Dual clutch and 6 speed transmissions replacing 4 and 5 speeds

The only US vehicles still using 4 speed automatic transmissions are Focus, E Series. The Mustang still has a 5 speed auto.

 

I'm betting the new Focus will get a PowerShift !

Edited December 3, 2008 by theoldwizard

[NickF1011]

This was just 1 line in the Ford Congressional Submission Addendum.

Dual clutch and 6 speed transmissions replacing 4 and 5 speeds

The only US vehicles still using 4 speed automatic transmissions are Focus, E Series. The Mustang still has a 5 speed auto.

 

I'm betting the new Focus will get a PowerShift !

 

Well, the release said ALL Ford vehicles will have 6-speed autos by 2011 or 2012.

[jpvbs]

This was just 1 line in the Ford Congressional Submission Addendum.

Dual clutch and 6 speed transmissions replacing 4 and 5 speeds

The only US vehicles still using 4 speed automatic transmissions are Focus, E Series. The Mustang still has a 5 speed auto.

 

I'm betting the new Focus will get a PowerShift !

 

Panthers and base 4.6 F150 still get 4 speeds. Ranger?

 

I thought the US Fiesta was expected to launch with a 4 sp auto/5 sp man. at launch?

Edited December 3, 2008 by jpvbs

[NickF1011]

Panthers and base 4.6 F150 still get 4 speeds. Ranger?

 

I thought the US Fiesta was expected to launch with a 4 sp auto/5 sp man. at launch?

 

I believe Fiesta is launching with 1.6 liter and 6-speed Powershift auto. Not sure on the manual side of it.

 

In another year, I doubt Ford will be offering the 4-speed/4.6 2-valve combo on the F-150, and I doubt the Panthers are much longer for this world beyond 2010. Ranger will die or be replaced in that same timeframe.

[theoldwizard]

Well, the release said ALL Ford vehicles will have 6-speed autos by 2011 or 2012.

I wouldn't bet on that outside of the U.S. !

[NickF1011]

I wouldn't bet on that outside of the U.S. !

 

Well of course not. I was referring to the U.S. market, as was Ford's statement to Congress.

[68fastback]

That is in Europe only.

 

The US Fiesta (B-car) PowerShift is "different" and in this case different is better ! It can be different because it is going on a smaller, less powerful engine.

 

I was reading that at the low-end Getrag will also build dry-clutch PowerShifts. Also read in Automotive Indistries that the new Ferrari California will get (as an option, I presume??) a 7 speed wet-clutch PowerShift -- 7DCL750 which is transaxle version, I believe.

[Versa-Tech]

You probably don't have an answer for this, but why did Getrag develop all of the other dual clutch transmissions that are listed on their website? I know one's for the M3, but what about the rest?

Most of them weren't developed for production cars. I have a couple in my garage :shades:

[theoldwizard]

Let me start by saying I am a big fan of PowerShift (dual clutch) transmission technology. For most applications it should return excellent fuel economy and good driveability. It does have one down fall.

 

Maybe I'm making too much of this, but I don't think DCTs will ever be make it a good "towing" transmission. Even with 6 speeds they won't have a "deep" enough low to pull a heavily loaded trailer up a steep incline without burning up the clutch, even a wet clutch.

 

You can "lock" the output shaft of a conventional automatic and hold the engine speed at 3000 rpm for minutes without hurting a torque converter. With a wet clutch, you have less than 15 seconds before you start loosing friction material.

 

Now I know that doesn't sound like a realistic situation, but think of the guy at steep (dry) boat ramp trying to pull a much too large boat out. (you know, the guy with the Ranger trying to pull a 38' cruiser.) With a torque converter, you get a lot of noise and probably no movement. With a DCT, hopefully the software will shut down the engine before he damages the clutch.

 

8 speeds or high/low range box ?

[edselford]

Let me start by saying I am a big fan of PowerShift (dual clutch) transmission technology. For most applications it should return excellent fuel economy and good driveability. It does have one down fall.

 

Maybe I'm making too much of this, but I don't think DCTs will ever be make it a good "towing" transmission. Even with 6 speeds they won't have a "deep" enough low to pull a heavily loaded trailer up a steep incline without burning up the clutch, even a wet clutch.

 

You can "lock" the output shaft of a conventional automatic and hold the engine speed at 3000 rpm for minutes without hurting a torque converter. With a wet clutch, you have less than 15 seconds before you start loosing friction material.

 

Now I know that doesn't sound like a realistic situation, but think of the guy at steep (dry) boat ramp trying to pull a much too large boat out. (you know, the guy with the Ranger trying to pull a 38' cruiser.) With a torque converter, you get a lot of noise and probably no movement. With a DCT, hopefully the software will shut down the engine before he damages the clutch.

 

8 speeds or high/low range box ?

 

Good Point on powershifts.

 

Note that powershifts are great for giving the powertrain engineer the ability to get optimum gear ratio's for a given gear spread. This is ideal for a supercar!

 

Now that the Chrysler/Getrag deal is on the rocks, it is unlikely we will see high volumes of these transaxles in the US market. I also suspect that the future Ford dual clutch design is questionable too given the economic and the ability of various parties to borrow money in today's market.

 

The advantage everyone talks about of up to 6% fuel economy over a conventional automatic transmission may only be true with a dry dual clutch design. When a wet clutch design is employed, the difference in Fuel economby between this type of trans and a conventional torque converter six speed is practically nill.

 

It is very unlikely we will see a "truck" dual clutch design. More likely, an 8 speed conventional automatic with lock up torque converter would be employed to extract the last bit of F/E from a conventional powertrain.

 

Edsel ford

[battyr]

Data ? Who said data ?

 

That is mostly good old fashion 3rd generation C code !

 

Got to control 2 clutches, at the same time. There has to be at least 4 "sliders" inside the transmission that have to be moved. Sure you need some upshift/downshift tables, but most of it is code.

 

I don't know about transmissions, but over 30% of the code in a engine controller was for OBD-II/diagnostics and that was still growing !

 

BTW, I heard that 3.7L DI-VCT TwinForce was having a problem fitting into 2 GB of memory !

 

 

Floating Point ! EEC-V and below all used hand-coded assmbly language and fixed point binary math (grunt, grunt, grunt) Yep, "programmers" :shades: back then ate lightening and crapped thunder !

 

Did you mean 3.7 L TwinForce, or 3.5 EcoBoost?

 

1 Gig of memory. It's the same story. My new computer has 1000 X the memory and 1000 X the speed of my first computer. I only write letters with both. My first computer had DOS and Wordstar with a spell/grammer checker. My new computer has Windows, Internet Explorer with no spel chekcr. They both boot just as slow, and has the same delays. The real joke is that most of the required processing for this forum is done on the Web surver, not even my computer.

 

It's the old story that you can use Microsoft tools to write software faster and easier, but you get bloatware.

[battyr]

VW is bringing out 7 and 8 speed DCTs.

 

In a DCT is it really that practical to use a 7 and 8 speed? I would think they would get a much larger transmission with little improvement. Is it more a matter of the more the better, for marketing reasons, and not technical reasons?

 

The new VW transmissions do have a good improvement in fuel efficiency, but I think that is from reducing the hydraulics.

[theoldwizard]

In a DCT is it really that practical to use a 7 and 8 speed? I would think they would get a much larger transmission with little improvement. Is it more a matter of the more the better, for marketing reasons, and not technical reasons?

You are basically correct.

 

The fuel economy improvements decrease as you add gears. Weight and costs go up. I think 6 speeds is pretty close to the "sweet spot".

[Versa-Tech]

You are basically correct.

 

The fuel economy improvements decrease as you add gears. Weight and costs go up. I think 6 speeds is pretty close to the "sweet spot".

Indeed. Maybe 7 if it's a race car. But then again, fuel economy and costs aren't really an issue in that world.

[theoldwizard]

It is very unlikely we will see a "truck" dual clutch design.

Confirmed.

 

We will see more PowerShift on Ford C size cars/CUV/SUVs in "the future".

 

No plans for anything larger, at least in the US.

Edited December 12, 2008 by theoldwizard

[Devodev]

Confirmed.

 

We will see more PowerShift on Ford C size cars/CUV/SUVs in "the future".

 

No plans for anything larger, at least in the US.

 

Nice, does this pave the way for a Mustang DCT as well if the SUVs could get one?

[theoldwizard]

Nice, does this pave the way for a Mustang DCT as well if the SUVs could get one?

Mustang is not a "C size" car.

 

Flex, Edge and the new Explorer, as well as the Taurus/MKS are all built (or will be built) on a D size platform.

[songli]

Now that is a lot of brass air fittings http://www.liangdianup.com/subpages/airfitting_1.htm there is just about every type

of air fitting that you could want. Wholesale prices too. I guess these could be used as small water pipe fitting also. I

used some of the parts to make my babington wvo burner.

[manbearpig]

A DCT Mustang would be soooooo nice. Sure, DCT's are great for fuel efficiency but just as great for performance applications. Surely you'll never see a DCT F150(towing) but a DCT Mustang would have to be in the works eventually i would think.

[AM2]

Ford officially announces dual clutch PowerShift gearbox for 2010

 

Like the DSG units used in a number of Volkswagens, the PowerShift allows full automatic control or clutchless manual shifting. Ford's first PowerShift is already available in the current European Focus with a 2.0L diesel engine. That unit is a wet-clutch system like most of the current VW DSG boxes. The new unit set to debut in the Fiesta is a dry-clutch system that's both lighter and more efficient. The 6-speed PowerShift weighs 30 lbs less than the 4-speed automatic currently offered in the U.S.-market Focus and should deliver 9-percent better fuel economy.

 

http://www.autoblog.com/2009/01/21/ford-of...earbox-for-201/

 

The PowerShift transmission will be offered in upcoming gasoline models in the US.

I wonder if Ford will also offer the PowerShift transmission on gasoline(petrol) models in Europe and Asia?

 

In Europe and Asia, PowerShift is currently only available in Focus TDCi models.

[theoldwizard]

In Europe and Asia, PowerShift is currently only available in Focus TDCi models.

I did not realized that PowerShift is currently limited to the diesel in Europe ! No basic design reason it could not be used on a petrol engine. Asia (especially China) may not get this transmission until it is manufactured in that part of the world.

 

This transmission (the one available in Europe) is different than the one that will be introduced on the US Fiesta. The EU version handles more torque and (I believe) uses wet clutches, while the US version uses dry clutches.

 

I do expect the higher torque version to be available on the Focus when the EU version comes to the US !

[battyr]

I did not realized that PowerShift is currently limited to the diesel in Europe ! No basic design reason it could not be used on a petrol engine. Asia (especially China) may not get this transmission until it is manufactured in that part of the world.

 

This transmission (the one available in Europe) is different than the one that will be introduced on the US Fiesta. The EU version handles more torque and (I believe) uses wet clutches, while the US version uses dry clutches.

 

I do expect the higher torque version to be available on the Focus when the EU version comes to the US !

 

I wonder if the North America will be exporting the dry DCT to Europe and Europe be exporting the Wet DCT to the US?

 

I understand that the Dry Clutch version should be cheaper and more fuel efficient than the Wet Clutch version. I wonder if Ford is working on a newer Dry Clutch version that will replace the high torque Wet Clutch?

[AM2]

I did not realized that PowerShift is currently limited to the diesel in Europe ! No basic design reason it could not be used on a petrol engine. Asia (especially China) may not get this transmission until it is manufactured in that part of the world.

In Europe the PowerShift transmission can be found in the current diesel Focus/C-Max & diesel Volvo C30/S40/V50/C70 models.

 

As far as I know, there are no Focus TDCi models in China.

Ford in Taiwan and the Philippines manufacture Focus TDCi models equipped with the 6-speed PowerShift transmission for diesel engines.

 

Is the PowerShift transmission for gasoline engines only for North America?

Edited January 23, 2009 by AM2

[theoldwizard]

I wonder if the North America will be exporting the dry DCT to Europe and Europe be exporting the Wet DCT to the US?

 

I understand that the Dry Clutch version should be cheaper and more fuel efficient than the Wet Clutch version. I wonder if Ford is working on a newer Dry Clutch version that will replace the high torque Wet Clutch?

Torque capacity and durability of the clutches was a major issue during the last 2-3 years of development. Early prototype were getting 50,000 miles out of a set of clutches.

 

There is very little demand (if any) for an automatic (of any kind) on a B sized car in EU.