suv_guy_19 Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Mercury already has a upper trim line available on the Grand Marquis - the Palm Beach Edition. It has suede creme colored leather seats and unique interior trim, among other things. If/when the Sable outsells the Grand Marquis, it won't be because it is a good product - it is because Ford wants it to outsell it, so they are stacking the deck in that direction. Ford has invested how much into the awful Sable platform vs. the Panther in the last 5-6 years? Without the Grand Marquis, Mercury will be a dead brand within 5 model years. I will buy one more Panther before my dealer goes out of business. Yes, because the Sable is such a bad product.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 Ford has invested how much into the awful Sable platform vs. the Panther in the last 5-6 years? The Sable is an awful platform??? Says who? You? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 (edited) The Sable is an awful platform??? Says who? You? It is still being outsold to retail buyers by a 30 year old "relic". If that fact is not cause to kill Mercury... don't know what is. Edited November 10, 2007 by P71_CrownVic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2005Explorer Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 (edited) It is still being outsold to retail buyers by a 30 year old "relic". If that fact is not cause to kill Mercury... don't know what is. Well it's funny that a Panther supporter wants Mercury killed...because when it is your car will be killed right with it! What is it with the "WE GOT TO KILL MERCURY RIGHT NOW" crowd around here anyhow? I hope you realize that Mercury has very little to do with the current state of Ford, but yet if I listen to some around here it's like if they killed Mercury for next year all of Ford's problems would be solved. The FACT is Mercury customers won't just go to Ford or Lincoln, you will loose them. Ooops there goes more market share. Real smart. Edited November 10, 2007 by 2005Explorer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 I should probably post this on the Focus ST thread too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 (edited) Well it's funny that a Panther supporter wants Mercury killed...because when it is your car will be killed right with it! Well, when Ford cannot design a brand new car that out sells a 30 year old "relic", something is wrong. And my car is already fleet only. Doesn't bother me. The Panther platform needs to be replaced because of Ford...not the platform. Ford neglected it to death...just like the Taurus, Ranger, and Freestar/Windstar. Rather than improve a product over the years, Ford would rather re-skin last years model a number of times. And when re-skinning does not work, they roll out a whole new car, and when that does not work, then they change the name hoping that someone will buy it. And nobody has. I like my car...and for what it is, I support it. That Taurus is a better car, but the sales are very poor. The Sable is a better car than the GM, but the sales are very, very poor, and the MKS is going to be a better car than the retail Town Car (despite it's incredibly stupid name). Edited November 10, 2007 by P71_CrownVic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted November 10, 2007 Share Posted November 10, 2007 I should probably post this on the Focus ST thread too. Yeah...we're crybabies because we want a better product than what we have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Yeah...we're crybabies because we want a better product than what we have. No, you're crybabies because you won't shut up and you are absolutely devoid of any sense of humor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 (edited) I should probably post this on the Focus ST thread too. My God Richard, I think you found the answer. I've never seen a better, more rounded, modern lineup. In all reality though, the Europhiles would complain and say it is too late, the people who think Ford isn't as good as the competition would hate the new midsize (lol), and the only happy ones would be the panther fans. That said, they would never buy a new one and would go and buy a used CVPI anyway. Edited November 11, 2007 by suv_guy_19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 (edited) they would never buy a new one and would go and buy a used CVPI anyway. Oh, didn't I mention that? All of the Crown Vics come pre-used. It's a new concept for cars, but Ford is taking a cue from jeans companies. The 2009 Crown Vic comes with holes in the roof from the light bar, missing rub strips on the front doors, a flat black insert between the taillights and your choice of three scintillating color combinations: Black, white, and uhhhh......... black and white. Added bonus features include vomit stains in the back seat and jelly donut stains in the front seat. Edited November 11, 2007 by RichardJensen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 The future of Mercury rests besides plymouth and oldsmobile. This Voga crap is a pathetic joke, how about mercury product? Until there is any news of a new mercury product than it is 100% clear Mercury is dead. Seems like Ford wants to focus on filling in the Lincoln lineup with more product (thats more profitable anyways) to keep the LM dealerships open and just keep Mercury as the low end volume models in the Lincoln dealership. Seriously whats the big deal with just keeping Mercury around with just a couple of Models just to do that? The cost is pretty damn low in the grand scheme of things. Just change the front and rear ends and keep the whole sale sheetmetal changes for Lincoln, when its worth it. In all seriousness, how much is Voga lineup costing Ford? I'm sure its going to pay for itself more then enough with its sales. Its just a new Mercury branding like Eddie Bauer on Ford SUVs :rolleyes: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlRozzi Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 I like the idea behind a special trim level for Mercury products, but the VOGA name?? Reminds me of Merkur. Why use an Italian name for "vogue?" I recall how nobody was able to pronounce the German name for Mercury back in the '80s. Please Alan...use the XR series name for Mercury as an upscale trim level!! If you don't like the numeric designation - i.e. XR-1, 2, 3 etc. - then how about simply XR-V (V for Voga)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 I like the idea behind a special trim level for Mercury products, but the VOGA name?? Reminds me of Merkur. Why use an Italian name for "vogue?" I recall how nobody was able to pronounce the German name for Mercury back in the '80s. Please Alan...use the XR series name for Mercury as an upscale trim level!! If you don't like the numeric designation - i.e. XR-1, 2, 3 etc. - then how about simply XR-V (V for Voga)? XR does not seem at all like an upscale name that would apply to Mercury buyers. I like Voga. It sounds very prestigious and special, something I think will attract people to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Seriously whats the big deal with just keeping Mercury around with just a couple of Models...? To Mercury's credit, their only model not pulling it's weight is the Sable. I do not think that there should be three models of every car. There should be a Ford model and either a Lincoln OR Mercury model. Once the MKS hits the streets, the Sable should go away. And either the MKZ or Milan should go away as well. There is no need for that many models of the same car. Trim the Fat. Mercury and Lincoln should "go forward" as one brand, not two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 There should be a Ford model and either a Lincoln OR Mercury model. I don't quite agree with that. I think that if there are going to be Lincoln & Mercury vehicles based on the same platform, they should be, essentially, different models. The MKS will have almost nothing visibly in common with the Sable. I wouldn't say that the MKS is the same 'model' as the Sable, in the way that the Sable is the same 'model' as the Taurus (virtually identical sheetmetal, interiors, options, powertrains). However, the Milan/MKZ situation should be addressed by greater differentiation between the two models. I don't think just the Milan or MKZ would sell anywhere near their combined volume. However, the two cars are, right now, far too similar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 I don't quite agree with that. I think that if there are going to be Lincoln & Mercury vehicles based on the same platform, they should be, essentially, different models. The MKS will have almost nothing visibly in common with the Sable. I wouldn't say that the MKS is the same 'model' as the Sable, in the way that the Sable is the same 'model' as the Taurus (virtually identical sheetmetal, interiors, options, powertrains). However, the Milan/MKZ situation should be addressed by greater differentiation between the two models. I don't think just the Milan or MKZ would sell anywhere near their combined volume. However, the two cars are, right now, far too similar. MKS shares very little under the skin as well - the MKS platform was very much developed directly for Lincoln needs - sure it started as D3, but in the production form it is a very different animal. The 2010 Taurus will actually be the firs Taurus (or recent Ford) to drive on a by all measurable means - LINCOLN PLATFORM. Most other products will be a little closer technologically, but as you said the Lincoln models will be much more independent from the Ford/Mercury model similar to how Mazda and Volvo have models separate from (even if based on) Ford models. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 I don't quite agree with that. I think that if there are going to be Lincoln & Mercury vehicles based on the same platform, they should be, essentially, different models. The MKS will have almost nothing visibly in common with the Sable. I wouldn't say that the MKS is the same 'model' as the Sable, in the way that the Sable is the same 'model' as the Taurus (virtually identical sheetmetal, interiors, options, powertrains). However, the Milan/MKZ situation should be addressed by greater differentiation between the two models. I don't think just the Milan or MKZ would sell anywhere near their combined volume. However, the two cars are, right now, far too similar. For the most part, Ford is off to a god start. Ford Escape/Mercury Mariner/No Lincoln Ford Expedition/No Mercury/Lincoln Naviagtor Ford Edge/No Mercury/Lincoln MKX There are a few others in the past as well. If they are going to sell three variations based on the same platform, then there needs to be a "MKS" level differentiation between all three. If they are just going to be re-badges, don't even bother. My question is if Ford offers the Taurus, Sable and MKS, does the Sable fill a legitimate gap in the market? There really cannot be any overlap. And they do. The Taurus starts at $23,245 and the Sable starts at $23,540 (so my prediction that the MKS will start somewhere between 30K and 35K may not be too far fetched). And the prices for the Sable and Taurus continue to about 30K. I just don't see the point to the Sable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 For the most part, Ford is off to a god start. Ford Escape/Mercury Mariner/No Lincoln Ford Expedition/No Mercury/Lincoln Naviagtor Ford Edge/No Mercury/Lincoln MKX There are a few others in the past as well. If they are going to sell three variations based on the same platform, then there needs to be a "MKS" level differentiation between all three. If they are just going to be re-badges, don't even bother. My question is if Ford offers the Taurus, Sable and MKS, does the Sable fill a legitimate gap in the market? There really cannot be any overlap. And they do. The Taurus starts at $23,245 and the Sable starts at $23,540 (so my prediction that the MKS will start somewhere between 30K and 35K may not be too far fetched). And the prices for the Sable and Taurus continue to about 30K. I just don't see the point to the Sable. Mercury is like Saturn - it attracts customers that would NEVER buy a Ford .. (as stupid as that sounds) .. so Ford changes the front and tail a bit, and has a new customer base - Mercury will not get unique products. Lincoln models will however be completely unique from their counterparts .. people do not complain that the EU Focus, mazda3, and S40 are all based on the same platform .. Mazda and Ford compete for the same customer, while Volvo starts at $30 - but people are Happy - Lincoln will be going in a similar direction. Lincolns will have unique look, unique interior (already have) and unique power train options - moreover, the mechanicals of the platform will also be reworked to deliver Lincoln level refinement. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Mercury is like Saturn - it attracts customers that would NEVER buy a Ford .. (as stupid as that sounds).. Thats like the people who would NEVER buy a Johnson outboard, but were delighted with an Evinrude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MKII Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 I should probably post this on the Focus ST thread too. Whats with the new Accord wearing a blue oval ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 Whats with the new Accord wearing a blue oval ? It's to replace the mediocre Fuison of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 (so my prediction that the MKS will start somewhere between 30K and 35K may not be too far fetched). And the prices for the Sable and Taurus continue to about 30K. With assorted options (DVD or sunroof, nav, AWD, etc.) Sable/Taurus prices will exceed $30k topping off around $32k or so. The MKZ starts off about $29k and tops off about $35k with all options & AWD. I would expect the MKS to start about $1-2k above the fully loaded MKZ. The MKZ at least has a thoroughly different interior; exterior needs similar differentiation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 I should probably post this on the Focus ST thread too. @ the Ford Accord... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papilgee4evaeva Posted November 11, 2007 Share Posted November 11, 2007 With assorted options (DVD or sunroof, nav, AWD, etc.) Sable/Taurus prices will exceed $30k topping off around $32k or so. What's REALLY interesting is how Sable comes standard with some options that cost extra on Taurus (remote start is the only one I can think of now)... but, fully loaded, the Sable Premier AWD is a few hundred less than the Taurus Limited AWD. The Mountaineer has the same idiosyncrasy. If the Mercury is supposed to be an uplevel trim of Ford, they better do a better job of it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted November 12, 2007 Share Posted November 12, 2007 (edited) MKS shares very little under the skin as well - the MKS platform was very much developed directly for Lincoln needs - sure it started as D3, but in the production form it is a very different animal. Igor Yeah...they transformed it into a cheap imitation Lexus. Don't hate the player.... Edited November 12, 2007 by Armada Master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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