2009 Lincoln MKS Unleashed

[suv_guy_19]

Thank you for rephrasing my post. Now that I re-read it, mine was a little confusing. :rolleyes:

 

Your welcome, any time.

[ManFord]

They had the LS, until it was abandoned.

 

Yes, the LS sorry, but I meant the recent.......currently in production...

Edited November 14, 2007 by ManFord

[Biker16]

very nice car.

 

The best Lincoln ever.

[BORG]

Does anybody know how the keyless entry on the MKS works. If you have the transmitter in your pocket, do you walk to the car and press a button on the keypad to unlock the car? I know Europeans have a little button on the door handles.

[wescoent]

Does anybody know how the keyless entry on the MKS works. If you have the transmitter in your pocket, do you walk to the car and press a button on the keypad to unlock the car? I know Europeans have a little button on the door handles.

 

It probably works something like that. I noticed a button on top of the keypad, which may be how it works. I'm not entirely sure how the keyless entry and go works, to tell you the truth. Is that when you press either the door button or the start button, the car sends out a signal to detect the fob?

[Michael Reynolds]

Did you even see the WARNING: Opinion ahead? Second I believe you have been "projecting" your own opinion "about a car that they haven't even seen the paint sparkle on", on everyone else, all day.

 

Where did I mention how well this vehicle was going to sell? Did I mention it was going to be at some other automakers expense, and not effect others?

 

I've simply taken raw data that we know, and compared it against other vehicles within the MKS' price range. I've also taken information and knowledge from previous trends (namely the manner and competition in which the CTS is pit against) and applied it to the MKS. I didn't say the MKS is better than anything else out there nor did I mention how well it would sell.

[peterstern]

That's silly Peter. Because the Twinforce won't be on the market for a year, it is, of necessity vaporware? I gotcha.

 

Furthermore, Lincoln's products were cheaper than Rolls Royce products; therefore you cannot eliminate the value consideration by saying they looked better (they did). You cannot pretend that, by offering more for less, the Continental and Mark II were not doing substantially what the MKS is doing.

 

Finally the idea that 'bang for the buck' didn't sell a coupe based on a Mustang chassis with an OHV engine and a horrible interior is ludicrous. The Mark VII was not all that and a bag of chips. It was routinely trounced in comparison tests because it was unrefined (solid rear axle, rough engine, crappy interior), with the only saving grace vis a vis the MB & BMW coupes being price as the MK VII stickered for thousands and thousands of dollars less. Plus the outside looked nice.

 

And at that time what were the other Lincoln offerings? The Fox Continental that was an embarrassment too hideous to survive, what with its 1978 Seville rip-off styling, reliability issues, and (again) lousy interior. The Town Car sold for the same reason it still sells today. It was big and comparatively cheap.

 

----

 

Lincoln has had 'value' as part of its ethos for over half a century. And you know what? That's not a bad thing.

 

Oh, and the LS 400 wasn't 'as good' as the S-Class & 7-Series, and it's still not.

 

Hmmm... first... regarding your statement "You cannot pretend that, by offering more for less, the Continental and Mark II were not doing substantially what the MKS is doing"

 

I'm saying that in the past, Lincoln offered more for less. And I'm also saying that the difference today with the MKS, Lincoln is offering 'a little less' (another way of saying 'almost as good') for less... when compared to the competing Cadillac, for example. "More for less" is much better than "a little less for less".

 

Secondly... the LS400 is one of the most reliable, durable and highly rated products of all time. Toyota went to ridiculous lengths to ensure that... and that's not me saying that... that's people who I know who are engineers working at parts suppliers that told me that. And JD Power and Consumer Reports data back that up. In terms of performance, you got a RWD sedan that had the space of a regular length S-class/7 series, a 32V DOHC V8 engine that was universally praised for performance, smoothness and sound quality, all for the price that was less than a Mercedes E-Class. And to cap it off, Automobile Magazine and Car and Driver both rated the original LS 400 as the best flagship luxury sedan over competing models ranging from Audi, BMW, Cadillac, Infiniti, Jaguar, and Mercedes-Benz:

http://www.q45.org/cd1989comparison/CD_12_...howdown_pg9.pdf

http://www.q45.org/cd1989comparison/CD_12_...owdown_pg10.pdf

http://www.q45.org/cd1989comparison/CD_12_...owdown_pg11.pdf

http://www.q45.org/cd1989comparison/CD_12_...owdown_pg12.pdf

 

Thirdly... the Mark VII was loosely based on the Thunderbird, which was loosely based on the Fox.

 

Fourth... the interior of the Mark Vii was "horrid"??? Well let's see:

http://www.cardomain.com/ride/705833/3

http://www.murrayco.com/lincoln_mark_7_1989.html

 

vs

 

This 1990 BMW 535, an E28 535 (mid 1980s) and a W124 Mercedes E-class:

 

http://www.outbackexports.com/sale/06-991-...r_bmw_535i.html

http://m535i.org/gallery/e28pics4/ItalianM535i2.jpg

http://www.autotrader.com/fyc/vdp.jsp?car_...superSpotlight=

 

To me, the E-class looks the best, the Lincoln comes in a close second, with the BMW a distant 3rd. But in any case, the interior looks anything but horrid in the Lincoln, given the era it was built for.

 

Fifth... lousy performance? The Mark VII made Car and Driver's 10 Best list in 1986... which incidentally is the 1st year it had the Mustang engine. And you say the engine was rough? Motor Trend said the engine was "sweetly silent":

http://thelincolnmarkviiclub.org/Gallery/L...ecember1986_009

And in that 1986 review, it finished 2nd behind the Mercedes S class coupe (more than twice the cost), but ahead of the BMW, Jag and Cadillac (which had the hopeless HT4100 engine). The basic criticism was that it felt a little cheap... mostly when compared to the Mercedes and the Jag. And the BMW was the least luxurious of all.

 

As for handling... you seem to forget that the air suspension that car had went a long way to alleviating the handling issues.

 

When I read that old review, it was clear that while the Mark was not rated the best, being #2 was pretty darn good given that #1 cost more than twice as much. Actually... all of the competition cost more.

 

So yeah, there has been a value element to Lincoln all along. I never said there wasn't. But I am saying there's a big difference between "selling more for less" and "selling almost as much for less". And I am also saying that going forward, it's a better idea for Mercury to be the cheap luxury brand and that Lincoln is better off aiming to be a 'second to none' brand... even if they don't have the highest prices.

 

The MKS is 'in the ballpark' as a luxurious FWD/AWD sedan. But when I look at it, Ford had better have a refresh planned by 2011 so it stays in the game.... and it had better be more than a superficial styling refresh.

 

You can talk about Twinforce all you want... twin turbo 415HP V6... sounds great... until Cadillac salesman approaches the customer and says... "Wouldn't you rather have a 505 HP V8 with RWD instead?". Yeah, that's what is in the works for Cadillac in 2009.

 

Hence my 'almost as good' point.

 

And yeah, anything that isn't actually in production is vapourware/hypeware. There is always the possibility that a problem is found and the product needs to be either delayed/detuned/despec'd/decontented. Or sometimes circumstances change which can also cause a delay or an outright product cancellation. Happens in the IT world a lot... Windows Vista is a perfect example. Don't tell me that it doesn't happen in the automotive world, because I know it does. It happened to the Hurrican/Boss engine (I'll concede that it was for some very good reasons).

 

I don't expect the Twin Force to get delayed or cancelled since it seems to be the right engine for the times... but I have also seen companies cancel products at the last minute for stupid reasons as well.

Edited November 15, 2007 by peterstern

[suv_guy_19]

Does anybody know how the keyless entry on the MKS works. If you have the transmitter in your pocket, do you walk to the car and press a button on the keypad to unlock the car? I know Europeans have a little button on the door handles.

 

 

Under the info for the Keypad, it says if you have intelligent access that you wave your hand over where the keypad is and it will unlock the doors as long as the fob is in your pocket.

[BORG]

It probably works something like that. I noticed a button on top of the keypad, which may be how it works. I'm not entirely sure how the keyless entry and go works, to tell you the truth. Is that when you press either the door button or the start button, the car sends out a signal to detect the fob?

 

 

That sounds just about right. That makes the keypad even more integral to the vehicle than it has been previously.

[suv_guy_19]

IMO the car looks really good in Cinnamon.

[Deanh]

IMO the car looks really good in Cinnamon.

gimmee simple black...if someone asks me the color and I have to answer with a feminin sounding Martha Stewart swab, I want an easy out...LOL!

Edited November 15, 2007 by Deanh

[RichardJensen]

What is your basis for the first sentence?

 

1) An assumption regarding NVH, that is to say the MKS has been benchmarked for world class cabin isolation.

 

2) Luxury can be described in terms of both space and materials. Lincoln has more of one, and better choices in the second. Olive Ash------gee, I wonder if any other manufacturer is using such materials. Nope. Not for $40k.

 

BMW, Merc, Volvo, etc., even Lexus with the GS, can be described as luxury "AND" vehicles, with a heavy emphasis on what comes after the "AND". The Lincoln is quite obviously emphasizing pure luxury, and from that standpoint its dimensions and materials set it firmly apart from the competition.

 

In short, the overwhelming advantage in passenger volume is as meaningful by some measures as HP is in others.

[Edstock]

 

It's a fine product, and it's going to sell. It's not going to be an over-night success, but the overall shape is extremely subtle and expression of 3-D panel bending is harmoniously restrained compared to BMW, for example. The chrome side-window highlight is great. The point is, the design should age really well. It's just opinion, but the S will be well received.

 

Build quality, and smooth AWD performance will be noticed. Plus, it uses regular, and it has great headlights.

 

Now, all it needs is the Getrag transmission. The TF will give it somewhere around a 10:1 weight/power ratio. With AWD and a 6-speed, it should be adequate.

 

Offering a premium-tune DI would make sense as a middle option.

[BORG]

What is Sirius Travel Link?

[P71_CrownVic]

1. Yes, since towing is really high on the priority list of people buying luxury sedans.

 

2. If you call the ability to unsafely stuff a passenger in front of the radio controls a benefit, then yes, you win there.

 

3. Here we go again on this one. There are no EPA ratings on the MKS yet, and the EPA ratings on the Taurus/Sable out-do those on the Panthers by a LARGE margin. I don't care what kind of "real world" 30 mile per gallon stories people come up with.

We were talking about the Edge versus the Lambda crossovers.

 

Use your finger if you can't keep up.

[RichardJensen]

I'm also saying that the difference today with the MKS, Lincoln is offering 'a little less' (another way of saying 'almost as good') for less... when compared to the competing Cadillac, for example. "More for less" is much better than "a little less for less".

 

Secondly... the LS400 is one of the most reliable, durable and highly rated products of all time. Toyota went to ridiculous lengths to ensure that... and that's not me saying that... that's people who I know who are engineers working at parts suppliers that told me that. And JD Power and Consumer Reports data back that up. In terms of performance, you got a RWD sedan that had the space of a regular length S-class/7 series, a 32V DOHC V8 engine that was universally praised for performance, smoothness and sound quality, all for the price that was less than a Mercedes E-Class.

 

When I read that old review, it was clear that while the Mark was not rated the best, being #2 was pretty darn good given that #1 cost more than twice as much. Actually... all of the competition cost more.

 

So yeah, there has been a value element to Lincoln all along. I never said there wasn't. But I am saying there's a big difference between "selling more for less" and "selling almost as much for less".

 

And yeah, anything that isn't actually in production is vapourware/hypeware. There is always the possibility that a problem is found and the product needs to be either delayed/detuned/despec'd/decontented. Or sometimes circumstances change which can also cause a delay or an outright product cancellation. Happens in the IT world a lot... Windows Vista is a perfect example.

1) So by offering like 50 more hp than the BMW 5 series at a starting price $7k lower, the MKS is offering 'a little less for less'? I'm afraid I have absolutely know idea how you get to that.

 

2) After the novelty wore off, the LS 400 was routinely labeled a 2nd tier effort, and its successor the LS450 is no different. It has been panned as well. Sure it's reliable, but know what? Lincolns are reliable too.

 

3) The Lincoln Mark VII was #2 the year it was launched. Where was it in 1989? Oh yeah, near the end of the pack. Furthermore, the Lincoln Mark VII had (regardless of what you think) a sub par interior for a luxury car. I've been in both Mark VIIs and contemporary Mercedes and there is absolutely no comparison. Aside from leather seats the Mark VII interior was barely superior to the Tempo and ergonomically it was far worse than the Taurus. Tiny photos of old cars don't do justice to the difference. The Mark VII, on the inside, felt like a Mustang with leather seats.

 

4) You want to make some distinction where a vehicle that had a technologically deficient engine, a technologically deficient suspension, and a materially deficient interior is "a true Lincoln" because it had more HP than a Mercedes; while at the same time criticizing a vehicle with a modern engine, a modern suspension, and a competitive interior, because this engine has more horsepower than the -base- models but not the tuner models, from the competition?

 

5) Regarding vaporware. The fact that the TT DI engine has twin turbos and direct injection on what is essentially, a production engine should be noted. To hear you say it, the TF engine represents some kind of ground-up rebuilding of the ICE with revolutionary never applied before technologies incorporated into it. Your use of Windows Vista is a perfect example of how software scenarios should not be applied to the real world. How would you analogize Vista to a new engine?

 

Ultimately, Peter, you had some expectations for the MKS that were disappointed.

 

Apparently in the engine department.

 

Why not comfort yourself by recalling that the "more for less" Mark VII didn't debut with the LSC package either.

Edited November 15, 2007 by RichardJensen

[BORG]

Although the MKS offers similar features to the Germans mentioned above, I don't think anybody in the market for a high-end luxury sedan will cross shop the MKS and the Germans. There is a huge difference in the customers targeted. If I won the lottery tomorrow, it won't be a Lincoln MKS I will be buying. But money is an object for me here and if I want an aspirational car I can reach, Lincoln is serving me well.

 

The MKS is as close to a S-Class now as the Continental was to an S-Class back in the 90s. There is the same level of separation and no one disputes that the Continental was in no way a competitor to the S-Class if only because it attracts a completely different customer at a substantially lower price point. I use to be a 1996 Continental owner btw and the car was amazing when I first got it (but it appeal wore off rather quickly).

[RichardJensen]

I would argue the MKS is closer to the S-Class than the Continental was, for any of a variety of reasons. The Continental offered little more than space and a 32 valve V8. In terms of appointments, in terms of dynamics and NVH, in terms of gadgets, it was not 1st tier.

[BORG]

There's no way we can predict how well it will match the S-Class beyond the raw data, but I'm assuming there will be a substantial difference in chasis characteristics (at least on the track).

[Hemiman]

nice profile...man thats a big car! ( shhhhh, wish they could have pushed the wheels further out )

 

 

Just the front. Man that HFO just looks like crap compared to the others.

 

Sorry Rich, I couldn't help myself!

[02MustangGT]

I love the overall look of the MKS, although, I agree, the front overhang is a little excessive. Is it just me, or does the car appear lowered in the pics from the auto show? I've seen it all before, the Mustang at NAIAS was shown as the production version a few years ago, only to show up in the showrooms with a ride height that was noticeably higher.

[one2gamble]

I love the overall look of the MKS, although, I agree, the front overhang is a little excessive. Is it just me, or does the car appear lowered in the pics from the auto show? I've seen it all before, the Mustang at NAIAS was shown as the production version a few years ago, only to show up in the showrooms with a ride height that was noticeably higher.

 

 

wouldnt surprise me, cars look better when they sit down like that

[Edstock]

[one2gamble]

I really like that front end, it just flows right. I hope it looks that good in person.

[DCK]

I can't wait till people here say how much of a success it is when it outsells the S-class.

 

Of course it will.

 

They don't compete/and lincoln may never have anything to compete with Mercedes.

 

The MKS is a nice stepping stone to get back into the luxury market, long way to go before they are considered a luxury mark again though, that is something we can't forget.

 

I like that we can actually say Lincoln and Luxury in the same sentence without looking metally retarded though.

Edited November 15, 2007 by DCK