Hyundai Genesis

[silvrsvt]

I think we ALL know the answers to those questions. At some point, a luxury buyer has had to realize (or not) that a good chunk of the price of the car is for the badge on the front. ($50K BMW 535i, and you have to pay for leather, side airbags, split-folding rear seats AND an iPod jack? Sheesh.) With the Linc and 'dai, that's not the case.

Haven't the foggiest. Don't need to. All I know is, this is what happens value is the major redeeming feature of your car. Now someone has come and (possibly) one-upped the Lincoln. So if someone decides, "I want a luxury sedan that's good value, and I don't care about the badge", they would have no reason to pick the Lincoln. Heck, even if a regular car buyer wanted one, there's no reason. No badge. Not rear-drive. It's down on power to start. It's already getting blasted by critics as "not enough". I have to say it doesn't look great.

 

 

Thats the whole problem, I'd venture to say that better then 90% of Luxury car buyers buy them because they want snob appeal.

 

Its the same situation with the Fusion and MKZ...The Fusion is pretty nice and the only thing the MKZ has over it in features is the 3.5L and headed/cooled seats over the Fusion and the engine issue gets worse in 2009 if the Fusion gets the 3.5 and the MKZ doesnt get the 3.7L, but I like the MKZ better since it has some snob appeal, but also my peers and friends might give me a hard time since Lincoln is an Old mans car

[TomServo92]

Haven't the foggiest. Don't need to. All I know is, this is what happens value is the major redeeming feature of your car. Now someone has come and (possibly) one-upped the Lincoln. So if someone decides, "I want a luxury sedan that's good value, and I don't care about the badge", they would have no reason to pick the Lincoln. Heck, even if a regular car buyer wanted one, there's no reason. No badge. Not rear-drive. It's down on power to start. It's already getting blasted by critics as "not enough". I have to say it doesn't look great.

 

I believe that the combination of having that much money to spend and not caring about the badge will be rare. Lincoln may not be anywhere near the top of the luxury car food chain but I can guarantee you it isn't as low as Hyundai. Even down on power (at least for now), I think the MKS has a better chance of success than the Genesis.

Edited December 7, 2007 by TomServo92

[P71_CrownVic]

I think I just found a quote to add to my sig! :P

Loons and Eagles. Awesome birds.

[P71_CrownVic]

Are people on this site becoming argumentative and bi^chy for no good reason? Or just playing dumb?

 

With traction control, RWD isn't too bad these days..... But back in the 70s I lived in Minneapolis and I had a 71 Demon 340 RWD (duh). Strip gears didn't help. No traction at all. I would slide around corners, maybe slide through them. I had to park it. A friend had a 73 Toronado FWD, we drove from Fargo back to Mpls. No problem blasting through freeway snow drifts or around town in snow.

 

FWD is inherently better than RWD in snow. Lack of traction in RWD has been negated considerably by TC. But you'll still see more RWD cars sold in the south and more FWD cars sold in the north.

http://forums.caranddriver.com/auto/board/...p;query.id=1191

I have a open diff, RWD car with no traction control. All I have done to help winter driving is add the cheapest snow tires I could find (WinterForce M+S). I have ZERO problem in the snow.

 

Last year when we got a huge snowstorm, my car was just as good on the roads (that had 5-6+ inches of snow on them) as my moms 4WD Escape, however I could stop A LOT sooner. In fact, our PD, who puts pursuit rated snow tires on the squads, parked all of the Vics and used every 4WD vehicle the city had...Police, Fire they didn't care.

Edited December 7, 2007 by P71_CrownVic

[syrtran]

Yes, but how can it be that price if it has all the features that have been said and all that power. It has to be missing something.

Employee benefits?

[suv_guy_19]

Employee benefits?

 

 

That may very well be part of it....but it still seems rather low priced. If they left nothing out, they have to be making very little if anything on it.

[syrtran]

Does a Town Car really cost almost $20K more to build then a Grand Marquis? Think on that one.

Don't know about now, but in the old days ('60s - '70s) I believe Lincolns used to have their entire drivetrain balanced as a unit. This would've been an extra step in the assembly process and would take a bit of manpower and special equipment.

[LincolnFan]

What I'm getting at is the fact that with all the features, the MKS is already priced substantially lower than the competition. How can a car with more power and supposedly almost as many features undercut it by even more?

 

1) It's built in Korea with cheaper labor.

 

2) Cheaper parts because they will probably all come from Korea or some other 3rd world country.

 

3) Hyundai are willing and capable of cutting the profit margin on the car to gain market share.

 

Ford on the other hand lacks all the luxuries of above, hence the overpricing.

 

Wesconent, you just hit the bull's-eye. They had to change so much in the chassis it stopped being funny. I am smelling the case of the 08 Focus all over again, they stumbled and threw tons of cash and ended up making a costier car rather than just importing the C1.

 

If Ford of NA helped Ford of Aus by developing the Orion and getting the chassis to America (FoAus was willing to make the Orion Falcon LHD so they could export it to ME) and building the MKS on it (instead of reworking the platform from almost scratch) build it next to the Mustang in Flat Rock, I wouldn't be here today bad mouthing their stupid decisions.

 

They had a great oppurtunity and they blew it, hell, the TF might have been ready at launch if they used the Falcon chassis (which is proven to handle big power BTW, check their BOSS 5.4 and Turbo I6).

 

Instead, they let FoAu go dry, they had to cancel the Fairlane because they couldn't afford it (Where's the integrity, Mr. Mulally? What happened to "ONE-FORD"?) Hell, they could have just co-developed the Fairlane and built it in America.

[wescoent]

1) It's built in Korea with cheaper labor.

 

2) Cheaper parts because they will probably all come from Korea or some other 3rd world country.

 

3) Hyundai are willing and capable of cutting the profit margin on the car to gain market share.

 

Ford on the other hand lacks all the luxuries of above, hence the overpricing.

 

Wesconent, you just hit the bull's-eye. They had to change so much in the chassis it stopped being funny. I am smelling the case of the 08 Focus all over again, they stumbled and threw tons of cash and ended up making a costier car rather than just importing the C1.

 

If Ford of NA helped Ford of Aus by developing the Orion and getting the chassis to America (FoAus was willing to make the Orion Falcon LHD so they could export it to ME) and building the MKS on it (instead of reworking the platform from almost scratch) build it next to the Mustang in Flat Rock, I wouldn't be here today bad mouthing their stupid decisions.

 

They had a great oppurtunity and they blew it, hell, the TF might have been ready at launch if they used the Falcon chassis (which is proven to handle big power BTW, check their BOSS 5.4 and Turbo I6).

 

Instead, they let FoAu go dry, they had to cancel the Fairlane because they couldn't afford it (Where's the integrity, Mr. Mulally? What happened to "ONE-FORD"?) Hell, they could have just co-developed the Fairlane and built it in America.

 

Do you seriously believe Americans would accept a Falcon as a luxury car? Or a Fairlane for that matter? Both are fine vehicles, but completely lack the NVH of a luxury car, and the capability of AWD. Ford has been spending the better part of the last 10 years trying to find a cheap way to bring the Falcon/Fairlane up to standards as a Lincoln, and it just isn't possible.

 

Meanwhile, within 6 months of getting on the job, Mullally approved a plan to formally integrate all of Ford's global RWD development operations, and we'll see a brand new RWD Town Car within 3 years. It's also looking increasingly likely the 2nd-generation MKS will move to this platform if D3 dies.

 

Laugh all you want at FWD-biased AWD (I'll be happy to race a RWD sedan of your choice against my RS4, and then you can keep sputtering about how RWD is superior). The Lincoln MKS will have AWD, and the driving dynamics and NVH of a true luxury car, something I can't say about any hodge-podge Falcon-based effort. It's better to have an MKS on the market now, then to wait another 3 years to satisfy the RWD or Nothing crowd.

 

And you hit the nail on the head as well... cheaper parts and cheaper labor... bye bye quality. And CUTTING THE PROFIT MARGIN??? Hyundai has to recoup the costs of developing this thing, and it's not a matter of decreasing profit... its a matter of increasing the HUGE LOSS they will incur by pricing it too low. Ford, which is run by actual responsible business managers, knows better than to do something as stupid as burn up millions to go NOWHERE... which is how far this car will get when it's sitting next to an Excel with a sale sticker on the window.

[Anthony]

And you hit the nail on the head as well... cheaper parts and cheaper labor... bye bye quality. And CUTTING THE PROFIT MARGIN??? Hyundai has to recoup the costs of developing this thing, and it's not a matter of decreasing profit... its a matter of increasing the HUGE LOSS they will incur by pricing it too low. Ford, which is run by actual responsible business managers, knows better than to do something as stupid as burn up millions to go NOWHERE... which is how far this car will get when it's sitting next to an Excel with a sale sticker on the window.

 

Chances are that Hyundai will make just as much as Lincoln does with each sale (with the aforementioned cheaper parts and labor). Lower cost to produce can equate to a lesser sales price. Hyundai also does not have the added costs of having a separate storefront to sell these in a Lincoln does (ie, from Ford). Don't make the mistake of equating lower sales price with lower profit.

[Hemiman]

FWD is inherently better than RWD in snow.

http://forums.caranddriver.com/auto/board/...p;query.id=1191

 

 

Not really the case. The reason is weight bias over the drive wheels FWD or RWD. Anyone remember how VW Bugs were able to go through the snow? Even if the heat sucked, they were great winter cars.

 

Just for kicks one fall, I put some snow tires on my 70 Vette and took it out in the snow before the salt trucks made thier rounds. That car, with it's 50/50 bias and posi rearend went through snow better than most cars I've driven before or since. Only problem was, the chin spoiler was acting like a snowplow and packed the radiator with snow causing it to run hot.

Edited December 7, 2007 by Hemiman

[suv_guy_19]

Chances are that Hyundai will make just as much as Lincoln does with each sale (with the aforementioned cheaper parts and labor). Lower cost to produce can equate to a lesser sales price. Hyundai also does not have the added costs of having a separate storefront to sell these in a Lincoln does (ie, from Ford). Don't make the mistake of equating lower sales price with lower profit.

 

I would agree with you...if the difference were not almost an estimated $10000 fully loaded. They must be either making nothing or have cheaped out to be selling for that.

[P71_CrownVic]

Not really the case. The reason is weight bias over the drive wheels FWD or RWD. Anyone remember how VW Bugs were able to go through the snow? Even if the heat sucked, they were great winter cars.

 

Just for kicks one fall, I put some snow tires on my 70 Vette and took it out in the snow before the salt trucks made thier rounds. That car, with it's 50/50 bias and posi rearend went through snow better than most cars I've driven before or since. Only problem was, the chin spoiler was acting like a snowplow and packed the radiator with snow causing it to run hot.

Wasn't there an old commercial where you see a Beetle driving through very heavy snow, then an announcer comes on and says, "How does the snowplow driver get to work in the morning? He drives a Beetle."

 

Here it is:

 

[timmm55]

Not really the case. The reason is weight bias over the drive wheels FWD or RWD. Anyone remember how VW Bugs were able to go through the snow? Even if the heat sucked, they were great winter cars.

 

Just for kicks one fall, I put some snow tires on my 70 Vette and took it out in the snow before the salt trucks made thier rounds. That car, with it's 50/50 bias and posi rearend went through snow better than most cars I've driven before or since. Only problem was, the chin spoiler was acting like a snowplow and packed the radiator with snow causing it to run hot.

 

FWD is inherently better in the snow than RWD.....

It is the case, in GENERAL. I had two Corvairs, so I know what you mean...I thought it was fun to drive in a blizzard (and gas heaters was such a great idea! kidding ) . Ummm how many rear engine/RWD are are the market now?

 

I'd heard of people who drove their Vettes in the winter because the fiberglass body wouldn't rust. But they had problems with the frame rusting....and separating (may have been an urban legend though!).

 

I personally never had a serious mishap in RWD cars in the snow, yet I remember my dad pulling up our fairly steep driveway into the garage, where the old 80 Crown Vic RWD pushed the rear end out (rather than where a FWD would have pulled) and sideswiped the car.

 

IMHO people in Great White North know how to drive better in adverse condition, in RWD or FWD. They know what their car can/can not do. In SoCal after the first rain they are STUPID! The oil, rubber dust and water is like driving on glare ice, yet they drive 70-80 mph, tailgate and brake late with the obvious results.

[one2gamble]

I'll be happy to race a RWD sedan of your choice against my RS4, and then you can keep sputtering about how RWD is superior

 

 

Errr, that R makes my S4 seem so mundane.

[Deanh]

Chances are that Hyundai will make just as much as Lincoln does with each sale (with the aforementioned cheaper parts and labor). Lower cost to produce can equate to a lesser sales price. Hyundai also does not have the added costs of having a separate storefront to sell these in a Lincoln does (ie, from Ford). Don't make the mistake of equating lower sales price with lower profit.

3 words...IF they sell....Hyundai does not exactly drum up images of monaco and martinis, more like Tijuana and cheap tequila.....

[suv_guy_19]

...Hyundai does not exactly drum up images of monaco and martinis, more like Tijuana and cheap tequila.....

you never run out of material do you?

Edited December 7, 2007 by suv_guy_19

[Deanh]

you never run out of material do you?

some subjects are TOOOO easy....people seem to forget this is a Hyundai for gods sake...the crowd goes OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH! Valets fight to park it, S drivers give the drive by thumbs up, CEO"S drooooool, and panties drop......

[suv_guy_19]

some subjects are TOOOO easy....people seem to forget this is a Hyundai for gods sake...the crowd goes OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH! Valets fight to park it, S drivers give the drive by thumbs up, CEO"S drooooool, and panties drop......

 

[Deanh]

funny how my sarcasm can be a thread killer...LOL!

[suv_guy_19]

funny how my sarcasm can be a thread killer...LOL!

 

Because of the anger and hatred that it was started with, this thread was dead from the beginning.

[Deanh]

Because of the anger and hatred that it was started with, this thread was dead from the beginning.

re-read some of the posts though....case of thinking square pegs belong in round holes....common sense sometimes gets lost in the diatribes, especially when things turn personal...

[Anthony]

3 words...IF they sell....Hyundai does not exactly drum up images of monaco and martinis, more like Tijuana and cheap tequila.....

 

Bingo! I believe thats the obvious point I (and practically every poster) has been trying to make since this thread began:

 

However. I think Hyundai has burst through what should be the price ceiling of their models. I agree that a new luxury brand should have been created with this vehicle being the first model. You can't have a product price range as diverse as Hyundai's and expect any type of cachet on the upper end models with a $12K vehicle being sold next to it.

 

Lincoln is just starting to come out of its image of prune juice and formaldehyde. Heck, they've got as fair a shot as any at this point.

Edited December 8, 2007 by Intrepidatious

[Deanh]

Bingo! I believe thats the obvious point I (and practically every poster) has been trying to make since this thread began:

Lincoln is just starting to come out of its image of prune juice and formaldehyde. Heck, they've got as fair a shot as any at this point.

case in point..VW tried exactly the same with their Phaeton...and failed MISERABLY!

[Anthony]

case in point..VW tried exactly the same with their Phaeton...and failed MISERABLY!

 

Yup...but they OVERpriced their initial luxury car offering. I believe the point here was Hyundai's UNDERpricing.

 

Don't get me wrong, this thing ain't gonna sell. I think its undoing will be primarily because its going to be a "Hyundai", not because its a bad car (nobody knows that yet) nor because of price (its obviously priced better then any other comparable luxo-car in that category). They are going about it completely wrong by not branching out with a new brand. This ain't Wal-Mart...you can't have a one-stop shop for subcompact bare bones $10K A/B-cars and 300+hp RWD V8 luxo cars and expect the far ends of each spectrum to be taken seriously.

Edited December 8, 2007 by Intrepidatious