TStag Posted December 12, 2007 Share Posted December 12, 2007 No trouble at all, Land Rover is being stenced to mediocrity because no one is willing to buy the pathetic cat. Injustice at it's finest. Keep up, Jag's turning it around now (3000 advanced orders in the UK alone for the XF and it's not in a showroom yet). As for Land Rover I wouldn't worry about them, if TATA do get them, they will have a much richer parent to fun them anyway. The really worry is how many billions Ford is prepared to blow on Lincoln. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 For me the question that the author of the original article did not ask is whether Ford see's Lincoln as a Volvo beater or as a BMW contender. Heh....I view the D3's as an equivalent to a "beater" Volvo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted December 13, 2007 Author Share Posted December 13, 2007 Heh....I view the D3's as an equivalent to a "beater" Volvo. Well played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Keep up, Jag's turning it around now (3000 advanced orders in the UK alone for the XF and it's not in a showroom yet). As for Land Rover I wouldn't worry about them, if TATA do get them, they will have a much richer parent to fun them anyway. The really worry is how many billions Ford is prepared to blow on Lincoln. Like I said in the other thread, reality will come crashing down when XF has one great month and then lands exactly where the "saviour" XK is now: in the sales crapper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 13, 2007 Share Posted December 13, 2007 Like I said in the other thread, reality will come crashing down when XF has one great month and then lands exactly where the "saviour" XK is now: in the sales crapper. I don't think so...a four door has a bigger market base than a personal 2+2 coupe -convertible.....jag kinda did this exercise a$$ backwards..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 I don't think so...a four door has a bigger market base than a personal 2+2 coupe -convertible.....jag kinda did this exercise a$$ backwards..... You would think. But you'd also think the market for a premium coupe as nice as the XK would be more than a couple hundred units a month. Jaguar is just screwed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 oh ... WOW .... 4 letters: A U D I 'nuff said Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blueblood Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 oh ... WOW .... 4 letters: A U D I 'nuff said Igor What about Audi? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 What about Audi? 1) uses VW platforms not a flexible single platform .. and look how well they are doing .. people like to ignore that there are several ways of running a luxury brand .. BMW uses a single platform .. NO SH*** they do not have a lesser brand to feed from. Audi and recently Volvo are feeding from basic platforms and making them theirs and they are doing it well and it works... the BMW model is not the only one possible or feasible. Lincoln is (for now) pursuing the Volvo and Audi model - mostly because Ford does not have $6bn to fund another Cadillac Sigma project and continue to struggle. Lincoln will use Ford platforms both FWD and RWD until stabilized .. then, if they see space for improvement based on more engineering independence - they might. The article was there to fill blank space - it has not validity, rhyme or reason. There is no reason why a lux car has to be RWD ... there is no reason why a lux car needs a short fron overhang, and there is no reason why a lux car cannot be based on a lesser platform. - it all just needs to be done right and I am 100% positive, that people will see this with the MKS, just like they saw it with the S80 / V70 and have seen it with Audi. Igor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 1) uses VW platforms not a flexible single platform .. and look how well they are doing .. people like to ignore that there are several ways of running a luxury brand .. BMW uses a single platform .. NO SH*** they do not have a lesser brand to feed from. Audi and recently Volvo are feeding from basic platforms and making them theirs and they are doing it well and it works... the BMW model is not the only one possible or feasible. Lincoln is (for now) pursuing the Volvo and Audi model - mostly because Ford does not have $6bn to fund another Cadillac Sigma project and continue to struggle. Lincoln will use Ford platforms both FWD and RWD until stabilized .. then, if they see space for improvement based on more engineering independence - they might. The article was there to fill blank space - it has not validity, rhyme or reason. There is no reason why a lux car has to be RWD ... there is no reason why a lux car needs a short fron overhang, and there is no reason why a lux car cannot be based on a lesser platform. - it all just needs to be done right and I am 100% positive, that people will see this with the MKS, just like they saw it with the S80 / V70 and have seen it with Audi. Igor No, this is exactly why Lincoln is in trouble. If their competitors are Audi and Volvo, then by all means please Ford shutdown Lincoln. I would prefer Lincoln as a memory over being humilated like this. Lincoln is simply above Audi and Volvo, they CAN have an all/mostly-RWD lineup. The MKR, the MKZ (if the Huntsman can underpin the Falcon, it can easily underpin the Z), the MKX, the MKE and the MKC (later). The wagon can stay strictly AWD, same with the MKEscape/Kuga if it happens. Ford can do it, this is how you share costs and utilize a platform to the max. I have had it with low-goals, Lincoln was at a time a RR fighter. To make it a Volvo - VW competitor... no, I cringe at that thought, I can't accept it, it's not Lincoln. Look at Lexus, they made the LS400 and aimed at the S-Class and 7-series, and guess what? They're stealing sales and they stole sales back in the first incarnation. There's no freaking need to start from below!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonofford Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 No, this is exactly why Lincoln is in trouble. If their competitors are Audi and Volvo, then by all means please Ford shutdown Lincoln. I would prefer Lincoln as a memory over being humilated like this. Lincoln is simply above Audi and Volvo, they CAN have an all/mostly-RWD lineup. The MKR, the MKZ (if the Huntsman can underpin the Falcon, it can easily underpin the Z), the MKX, the MKE and the MKC (later). The wagon can stay strictly AWD, same with the MKEscape/Kuga if it happens. Ford can do it, this is how you share costs and utilize a platform to the max. I have had it with low-goals, Lincoln was at a time a RR fighter. To make it a Volvo - VW competitor... no, I cringe at that thought, I can't accept it, it's not Lincoln. Look at Lexus, they made the LS400 and aimed at the S-Class and 7-series, and guess what? They're stealing sales and they stole sales back in the first incarnation. There's no freaking need to start from below!!!! Lincoln as a RR fighter? If that ever was the case, it's not now, nor should it be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
igor Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 No, this is exactly why Lincoln is in trouble. If their competitors are Audi and Volvo, then by all means please Ford shutdown Lincoln. I would prefer Lincoln as a memory over being humilated like this. Lincoln is simply above Audi and Volvo, they CAN have an all/mostly-RWD lineup. The MKR, the MKZ (if the Huntsman can underpin the Falcon, it can easily underpin the Z), the MKX, the MKE and the MKC (later). The wagon can stay strictly AWD, same with the MKEscape/Kuga if it happens. Ford can do it, this is how you share costs and utilize a platform to the max. I have had it with low-goals, Lincoln was at a time a RR fighter. To make it a Volvo - VW competitor... no, I cringe at that thought, I can't accept it, it's not Lincoln. Look at Lexus, they made the LS400 and aimed at the S-Class and 7-series, and guess what? They're stealing sales and they stole sales back in the first incarnation. There's no freaking need to start from below!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 You would think. But you'd also think the market for a premium coupe as nice as the XK would be more than a couple hundred units a month. Jaguar is just screwed. possibly....almost a parrallel to Lincoln in someways....Jaguars XF is Lincolns MKS.....basically a start Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edstock Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Lincoln as a RR fighter? If that ever was the case, it's not now, nor should it be. Hard to believe, I know, but in the 1920's and 30's, the Brits regarded the Lincoln with that kind of respect, due to its engine's smoothness (reviewers commented on the Lincoln's ability to pull away smoothly and strongly from 5mph in top gear) and relative to the R-R, high-speed touring capability. IIRC, the Lincoln V-8 from the 20's had specifically-numbered con-rods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 possibly....almost a parrallel to Lincoln in someways....Jaguars XF is Lincolns MKS.....basically a start I don't think Jaguar has the time that Lincoln does though. Even though some prestige has been lost from the Lincoln brand, they are still moving quite a bit of metal, and by most estimations, doing so profitably. The other major difference is I don't see anything wrong with the XF. It's the best they could do. Heck, it's pretty close to the best ANYONE could do, and that STILL probably won't sell worth a damn. How does Jaguar fix that? They really can't, unless you're referring to the new XJ, but that's a different situation. At least Lincoln has an excuse if the MKS fails -- it's not up to snuff in several ways. What Jaguar's excuse if the XF fails? People just don't like Jaguar anymore? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Lincoln as a RR fighter? If that ever was the case, it's not now, nor should it be. Verily. I say Ergo. Lincoln's way which you support is completely wrong, you have zero information about Lincoln's rich heritage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Verily. I say Ergo. Lincoln's way which you support is completely wrong, you have zero information about Lincoln's rich heritage. People with first hand experience with Lincoln's rich heritage have mostly taken up residence in housing developments like these: As Henry Ford said, History is bunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 As Henry Ford said, History is bunk. Well then, according to him, he's bunk now. People who have witnessed MB heritage are in similar houses, yet it keeps on selling to today's dumbasses. Mediocre product will take Lincoln nowhere, Lincoln is an icon. Great and Impressive products will revive the once-world's best selling luxury brand in no-time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Well then, according to him, he's bunk now. People who have witnessed MB heritage are in similar houses, yet it keeps on selling to today's dumbasses. Mediocre product will take Lincoln nowhere, Lincoln is an icon. Great and Impressive products will revive the once-world's best selling luxury brand in no-time. Yes. Henry Ford's anti-semitism, for instance, is not a factor in sales of Ford products today. Similarly, the Lincolns that were priced on a par with, and were competitors of, Rolls Royce, were sold at the same time that HF was publishing his incendiary comments about Zionist conspiracies. If HF's anti-semitism is not relevant today, neither is the era of coach-bodied Lincolns. --- Unlike Lincoln, MB has pretty consistently produced the same type of product sold to approximately the same class of people (pointlessly small C-Classes and A-Classes aside). The kind of cars MB sold in the 20s and 30s is not relevant today. The kind of cars they sold in the 90s and 00s is. Fortunately for MB, the difference is not quite so stark for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deanh Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Well then, according to him, he's bunk now. People who have witnessed MB heritage are in similar houses, yet it keeps on selling to today's dumbasses. Mediocre product will take Lincoln nowhere, Lincoln is an icon. Great and Impressive products will revive the once-world's best selling luxury brand in no-time. your as loyal as my Aussie Sheppard....do you pee on other vehicles tires as well? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Yes. Henry Ford's anti-semitism, for instance, is not a factor in sales of Ford products today. Similarly, the Lincolns that were priced on a par with, and were competitors of, Rolls Royce, were sold at the same time that HF was publishing his incendiary comments about Zionist conspiracies. If HF's anti-semitism is not relevant today, neither is the era of coach-bodied Lincolns. So what? It's not like jews buy Fords. Ok I am trying to stay focused, but where did I ever suggest bringing back the BOF/Long Lincolns? Hell, if you have been keeping tabs on my posts as you should from now on, I have been asking for a four-door coupe Continental. The 1961 Continental was shorter than it's predecessor. I think the same thing should happen once the TC is cancelled. Unlike Lincoln, MB has pretty consistently produced the same type of product sold to approximately the same class of people (pointlessly small C-Classes and A-Classes aside). The kind of cars MB sold in the 20s and 30s is not relevant today. The kind of cars they sold in the 90s and 00s is. Fortunately for MB, the difference is not quite so stark for them. However their latest incarnations are not up to their standards if they ever had any. Yet they keep on selling because they're in a way true to their heritage. The Z, X and S are not close to that. They're all flops. Yes, I just passed my judgement. Don't like it? Sue me. your as loyal as my Aussie Sheppard....do you pee on other vehicles tires as well? Only if they're GMs, Japanese, or German. (however I piss all over the vehicle if it's German, because my piss will stick much better than the paint) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardJensen Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 Ok I am trying to stay focused, but where did I ever suggest bringing back the BOF/Long Lincolns? -YOU- specifically mentioned Lincoln's heritage from the 20s and 30s as though it were relevant today. My counter example illustrates that it is not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 14, 2007 Share Posted December 14, 2007 -YOU- specifically mentioned Lincoln's heritage from the 20s and 30s as though it were relevant today. My counter example illustrates that it is not. Why did they stop making these old coaches anyway? They would be amazing if Lincoln can use them as a comeback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 The Z, X and S are not close to that. They're all flops. And by what metric did you come to the conclusion that they are flops? Especially the last one that has yet to be released, but also the other two that are sales successes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LincolnFan Posted December 15, 2007 Share Posted December 15, 2007 And by what metric did you come to the conclusion that they are flops? Especially the last one that has yet to be released, but also the other two that are sales successes. X should be moving 4 - 5K units a month, not happening. I don't care for Ford's low expectations. If it sold less than it, the X should be cancelled. Z as well should be moving as much, didn't happen, not once during it's lifetime. Same about Ford conservative expectations. Why the S will flop? Look at the Taurus/Sable. And those two aren't anywhere near as overpriced. It's a shame Lincoln is producing such a vehicle. It's interior doesn't hold a candle against the Z's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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