Footballfan Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 STAP and Wixom likely both would have required some of the highest level of investment to keep them modern too. Therein lies the problem. Ford sunk over a $1 billion in Wixom since 1998. Even in its idled state, it is still one of Ford's most modern plants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
630land Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) The thousands of CVN members mostly get their rides used at auctions, giving FoMoCo $0.00, so what do you expect, free CAW labor? Did "P71" get his car brand new and help Ford make $$? I bet not. Since they only sell to goverments. Money talks, not whining or chest thumping in message boards. Ford offered the CV Sport model, but no one bought it since the 'loyal' fans said "I cant afford it", they expect 1990 prices on new cars, but then demand that Ford make cars, so they 'can get 'em cheap used". Well, who is going to pay for the new ones? Can argue, whine, cry, scream, make threats, all day about the 'beloved' cars, but the bottom line is retail sales. And more and more buyers do not care about the 1960's 'good old days' and want something more advanced, and not a beat up taxi or cop car. Edited December 11, 2007 by 630land Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furious1Auto Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) they are closing because they produce a product that is going away. I would think there is more to it, if it was cost efficient than they would get a new product. The rise in the loonies value over the dollar and our recent consessions may have made the U.S. a lower cost labor market over Canada or they may be looking to go further south! Edited December 12, 2007 by Furious1Auto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armadamaster Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) Ford sunk over a $1 billion in Wixom since 1998. Even in its idled state, it is still one of Ford's most modern plants. Then common sense would suggest via this article that if it is indeed that much more costly to operate a plant in Canada now versus the U.S., Panthers would have joined Town Car at Wixom instead of TC moving to STAP. Ford offered the CV Sport model, but no one bought it since the 'loyal' fans said "I cant afford it", they expect 1990 prices on new cars, but then demand that Ford make cars, so they 'can get 'em cheap used". Well, who is going to pay for the new ones? When the hell have you ever seen a CV sport parked up front on a Ford lot next to the Mustangs, F-150's or whatever Ford's peddling for nameplate of the month? Much less even had a CV LX, CV Sport, a CV PERIOD even on the damned lot in stock to look at. Oh...must be that one fleet white CV LX hidden behind the body shop you're talking about. Do I need to get into the lack of advertising? Edited December 11, 2007 by Armada Master Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Since when did holding 80% of a particular market = dead? Numbers, man, numbers. How many sales and at what profit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roadrunner Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 4. If Canada is the most expensive place to produce vehicles, then why not did they not move Panther production to Wixom and close STAP instead? Simple: it became the most expensive place after the dollar fell to the level of the Loonie. You saw the hubbub about the $1 = $1 across the border, right? Just remember: you probably would still have the Panther if it was built in Mexico. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 When the hell have you ever seen a CV sport parked up front on a Ford lot next to the Mustangs, F-150's or whatever Ford's peddling for nameplate of the month? Much less even had a CV LX, CV Sport, a CV PERIOD even on the damned lot in stock to look at. Oh...must be that one fleet white CV LX hidden behind the body shop you're talking about. Do I need to get into the lack of advertising? Sounds like you never considered the fact that the car just doesn't sell when it comes to the Retail market. The only CV I've seen at the dealerships are cop cars in for service. Why stock something that is just going to rot on the lot. I'm sure that some of the sales people who visit here will confirm that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Simple: it became the most expensive place after the dollar fell to the level of the Loonie. You saw the hubbub about the $1 = $1 across the border, right? Just remember: you probably would still have the Panther if it was built in Mexico. Well actually, it wasn't just your dollar that fell, our dollar has risen significantly against all currencies. It is slightly down right now, but I think it may be leveling off at a good place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxman100 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Sounds like you never considered the fact that the car just doesn't sell when it comes to the Retail market. The only CV I've seen at the dealerships are cop cars in for service. Why stock something that is just going to rot on the lot. I'm sure that some of the sales people who visit here will confirm that. I have to agree with you on that fact, but then again, Ford is not really interested in retail sales on the vehicle, since the exterior and interior styling is literally the exact same as a 1998. Still, it is their best automobile platform they sell, in my opinion. I'll even cut Ford some slack due to the safety nazi's and the environmental wacko's they have to deal with, but the fact is the new Taurus and Sable's are losers - any sales they lose from dropping the Panther and not going over to the Taurus. Without the Panther, Ford really doesn't have much I'd be willing to buy over a Honda or Toyota. Based upon sales, the Taurus should have never been approved for production. Now I have to hope the right options are available in 2010 when I order my new Grand Marquis from the factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Since when did holding 80% of a particular market = dead? When that market consists of taxis and police cars, I think you really need to consider its usefulness to the company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkisler Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I've posted before that St. Thomas should be considered Ford's Kalamazoo plant (i.e., Checker cab). Fleet business, but limited and shrinking retail, leading to ultimate death. The large American sedan used to be aspirational; it was natural to move into a large sedan as a visible measure of success. If you could afford a Town Car, that's what you would buy, but a GM or CV also represented status depending on your friends and associates. The world has changed. On average, younger buyers are not moving into large sedans (even Avalon and Taurus sales are nothing to brag about), and particularly Panthers. The average age of Panther buyers is near 70 IIRC. There are simply too many other product choices in today's market (crossovers for example) that offer good package with reasonable economy and excellent safety. And a large share of today's buyers did not grow up with American cars. The Panthers have no relevance whatsoever to a large part of the population. And, worse yet, they have a negative image for a lot of younger buyers ("grandma's car"). In my opinion, the presence of Panthers poisons the F/L/M image. St. Thomas might be making a profit on one full shift but it's likely not as high as some of the supporters on this board think. Nobody wants to run a plant on one shift as fixed costs can gobble up a lot of the variable profit. But more importantly, it's the cost to support Panther in the future that wouldn't make any sense as a total platform tearup costing close to a billion dollars would likely be required. Given the shrinking of the large car market, and the existance of a Taurus/Sable that offers good package, economy, safety, and AWD there is no way this could be justified. Particularly in a time when MPG will guide a lot of the forward model spending. In fact, I have a hard time believing that Ford will create a new RWD large car platform in the US. If Panther is so profitable, then I'm sure Ford won't have any problem whatsoever spinning St. Thomas off to a venture capital firm. Just create a prospectus and line 'em up for bids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wescoent Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 If Panther is so profitable, then I'm sure Ford won't have any problem whatsoever spinning St. Thomas off to a venture capital firm. Just create a prospectus and line 'em up for bids. Why not get the Panther Mafia together along with STAP employees, and do exactly that, if they're so convinced these cars are the savior of mankind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 The big issue is not whether the Panthers are going or not. That is inevitable. It is going to happen eventually. The big issue is whether or not Ford is going to have a replacement. Many here said that the D3's would replace them and customers would migrate to those. That obviously that is not going to happen. If Ford abandons this segment it will be one of the stupidest moves they will have ever made. Right up there with the Edsel (BTW the Edsel's posted better sales than the D3's) The Edsel was a fantastic car for the time it was advanced had excellent road manners were the safest cars on the road And offered more bang for the buck than anyone else. And where did that get them? At some point and time it has to be accepted that the D3 sedans are failures on a colossal scale. Just as the Panthers are failures now as well in retail sales. But the Panthers have a tangible excuse at least. The sales issues with Panthers is directly related to a body style that is going on decades old. Nothing else. If configured properly the platform it's self will hang with the latest full size offerings. As for the Panthers themselves no one can expect these vehicles to have strong sales sporting sheet metal designed in the 1980's Regardless of how good the chassis under them people just see the exterior sheet metal and dated interiors. If the F-series was still sporting the same sheet metal as it was in 1992 even is it was sitting on the current chassis it would not be the best selling P/U on the market and would be last place. Ford has to replace the CV GM TC with competent vehicles that can full fill that can keep the current customers the Panthers cater too and attract more. What underpins them is irrelevant as long it can match the competition and have the same kind of reliability and durability the Panthers were noted for. I do not care where it come from. A reworked Panther an Auz based Falcon or whatever. If Ford walks away from this segment they are giving up a guaranteed 100K yearly sales that has the have the highest owner loyalty for cars in the industry. The question of the panthers continued existence is a non issue here. The bigger question is , Is Ford going to abandon yet more customers in a high margin segment. Time to quit fighting like a bunch of school girls and address the bigger issue at hand. Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I really wish there was a feature that allowed us to block posts based on keywords. I'd block every thread that mentions Panther. How many times can you guys have the same conversation? Seriously? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I really wish there was a feature that allowed us to block posts based on keywords. I'd block every thread that mentions Panther. How many times can you guys have the same conversation? Seriously? It is real easy to do NO DO READ THEM Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 It is real easy to do NO DO READ THEM Matthew I really try not to. Hard to ignore them all though since the topic seems to crop up in every freakin thread on the site sooner or later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 If Ford walks away from this segment they are giving up a guaranteed 100K yearly sales that has the have the highest owner loyalty for cars in the industry. Matthew What sales that don't make much of any profit? Highest owner loyalty that comes from used car buyers or people who shouldn't even be driving on the roads? Owner loyalty doesn't mean jackshit if they don't buy new cars or bring in higher sales then what they currently have. Writing off the D3 as a failure only 3-4 after its launch and a major name change is downright stupid. The car is selling alright in relation to its non-fleet improved competitors. Sure it can sell better and I'd have higher expectations, but a $29 Million dollar ad campaign vs a $300K like the new Malibu has isn't going to get people to notice the Taurus and Sable. Hopefully Ford's new Sales Guru will fix that or better market the car. Like it or not, the Panther is going to fade away in the next 2 years...but there will be plenty on the used car market to keep the panther mafia alive for years to come. If/when Ford comes out with a new RWD platform, it won't sell in the same numbers as the Panther, if they keep it out of the fleets. Then Panther Mafia will calm its a failure Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P71_CrownVic Posted December 11, 2007 Author Share Posted December 11, 2007 I really wish there was a feature that allowed us to block posts based on keywords. I'd block every thread that mentions Panther. How many times can you guys have the same conversation? Seriously? What the hell do you expect in a thread about STAP closing!? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 What the hell do you expect in a thread about STAP closing!? I would expect something other than the same rehashed arguments from the same people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matthewq4b Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 What sales that don't make much of any profit? Highest owner loyalty that comes from used car buyers or people who shouldn't even be driving on the roads? Owner loyalty doesn't mean jackshit if they don't buy new cars or bring in higher sales then what they currently have. Writing off the D3 as a failure only 3-4 after its launch and a major name change is downright stupid. The car is selling alright in relation to its non-fleet improved competitors. Sure it can sell better and I'd have higher expectations, but a $29 Million dollar ad campaign vs a $300K like the new Malibu has isn't going to get people to notice the Taurus and Sable. Hopefully Ford's new Sales Guru will fix that or better market the car. Like it or not, the Panther is going to fade away in the next 2 years...but there will be plenty on the used car market to keep the panther mafia alive for years to come. If/when Ford comes out with a new RWD platform, it won't sell in the same numbers as the Panther, if they keep it out of the fleets. Then Panther Mafia will calm its a failure SVT give it up already. I Try to stay off the Panther bashing praising topic and their is always some twit that can not resist. Again for like the hundredth time on Panther profit margins they are the most profitable auto platform they have. The current cost to build a CV GM TC at STAP on one shift averages 9-12K I'm not even going to hint or name the source that that little tid bit came from but it accurate as of 2008 production , do the math on that and then come talk about profit margins. The D3's have been around for how long now? They failed as the 500 Montego they are failing as the Taurus and Sable yup many will claim advertizing fell down. There were excuses out the ying yang for the 500 Montego right up till they dropped. No we are getting the bullshit for the Taurus and Sable. Time to face the facts the cars fell flat on their face and are well on their way to becoming the biggest fuck up in the history of the company eclipsing even the Edsel. If sales do not turn around by this time next year they will officially have that title. Bottom line is if the cars were desirable they would be selling. What ever RWD sedan replaces the Panther it will have a high fleet percentage. This has been beaten to death over and over already apparently it still has not gotten through that thick skull of yours. Full Size RWD sedans will always have high fleet sales just like Pick up trucks & Full size Vans, as these cars are the primary choice of PD's govt agency's and cab companies, just like how P/U trucks and full size vans are the primary choice of Contractors, Airport shuttles and after market body companies. I think this little tid bit of info would have sunk in by now. No matter what replace the current Panther you either recognize the high fleet in this segment and use it your advantage or ignore it and hedge your bets that the product is even going to turn a profit, like the D3's. Matthew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 Again for like the hundredth time on Panther profit margins they are the most profitable auto platform they have. And for the 100 time the reason they are so profitable is the tooling has been long paid for, much like the Ranger, once you invest money into them, that profitability goes away. Then add in that the Canadian Dollar is equal or worth more then the US Dollar and well things aren't as rosey as they once where. If Ford was making SOOOO MUCH money on these products, why wouldn't they keep them around? It just doesn't add up and the reason is above...because if they invested a couple billion into them, they would never make any $$$ on it afterwards. As for the D3, we don't have any firm numbers to say Ford is or isn't making any money on them now. People jump all over the refresh and say it was an added expense, but it was already factored into the program cost of Ford keeping products updated instead of rotting like the Panther. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 I really wish there was a feature that allowed us to block posts based on keywords. I'd block every thread that mentions Panther. How many times can you guys have the same conversation? Seriously? What do you like the best Nick a Panther or an Escort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 What do you like the best Nick a Panther or an Escort. C. A self-inflicted gun wound to the head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ford Jellymoulds Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 (edited) C. A self-inflicted gun wound to the head. I think you are becoming one of those trolls Nick. (What ever they are)? Edited December 11, 2007 by Ford Jellymoulds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ute Posted December 11, 2007 Share Posted December 11, 2007 back to what someone said about the average age of the CV buyer hmmmmmmmmmm don't see to many LEO's at 70 years of age also how do the D3's make out in a 70 mph rear impact .....i sure would not want to be in the 500 (oh sorry whats it called again ) and again i go back to my previous point free advertiseing in every movie/tv shhow with police in it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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