AutoExremist Views of 2008 NAIAS

[FordBuyer]

As for Chrysler, what's left to be said? This is a car company in such disarray and one that's so lacking in focus that their public pronouncements have no credibility whatsoever anymore. It was a brilliant strategic move to part ways with their PR Chief Jason Vines, wasn't it? Not. Their current Kremlin-esque communications plan of "Let's only tell people what we want them to know because they're too stupid to figure out the rest of the story by themselves" is beautiful in its ineffectual simplicity. And when a company with a design "legacy" of Chrysler (a rapidly fading one, I might add) shows up at Cobo Hall with three concepts - two of which wouldn't have gotten past the first cut in a design bakeoff at the College for Creative Studies - there's no amount of spin that can mask the utter futility of what's going on over there. Going forward, I suggest you all keep reminding yourselves when reading anything about Chrysler (gushing Challenger puff piece or no) that the only formula you need to remember is this one: Bob Nardelli Arrogance + Jim Press Smugness + Cerberus Cluelessness = Not Good. Let's hope that Carlos Ghosn makes the Chryslerbus boys an offer that they can't refuse, because watching this train wreck unfurl in slow motion is excruciating.

 

The big news for Toyota in Detroit during media preview week was that the chinks in their armor manifested themselves in surly, testy and belligerent comments by their executives, totally out of character from the controlled, carefully orchestrated quotes that had always been their trademark in the past. Yuki Funo, CEO of Toyota Motor Sales U.S.A., suggested to Automotive News that the Detroit Three tried to "destroy" their Tundra launch by fighting back with a series of incentives, which he took great umbrage with. He failed to mention, of course, that when the Tundra launch was stalled in the market Toyota added massive incentives to create a false momentum for the brand-new truck - and Detroit responded with incentives of their own. That an executive of Toyota would deign to suggest that Detroit wasn't playing fair is laughable, considering this company has made a killing through the currency manipulation practices of the Japanese government and the fact the company has never turned down an opportunity to exploit the vast disparity between its labor/legacy/health care costs and those of the Detroit Three.

 

Then, Toyota CEO Katsuaki Watanabe fired off a series of green pronouncements designed to convince the media that Toyota hadn't lost its green mojo, and that they would maintain their green dominance in the market. The only problem is that the assembled multitudes in the media weren't as willing to concede the green mantle automatically to Toyota as they once did in the past. The media is savvy enough, in spite of their frightening lemming-like thinking at times, to finally get the fact that Toyota has a serious challenger in the market in the presence of General Motors, and that the game has not only changed - it has been blown wide open by the newly aggressive GM.

 

One good outcome of the Detroit show is that a brace of reporters got an in-your-face dose of Toyota arrogance in all of its unbridled glory. No longer given a free pass by the media, the cracks in Toyota's usual manufactured sheen were evident for all to see. All of a sudden, Toyota has a real dogfight on its hands and on every front too - technology, efficiency, alternative propulsion systems, quality and market credibility - and they're finally being exposed for what they have been all along: a merely mortal mercenary car company that is as prone to missteps and blatant gaffes as anybody else.

 

The Honda faithful seemed distressed that I pummeled the new Pilot that's coming, but upon further review, like the M-B GLK, it's even worse than I thought it was originally. Nothing distinctive, nothing creative, nothing memorable, nothing Honda about it all - and blunderbuss ugly to boot. Other than that, it's damn near perfect.

 

As for Ford, I would say they're where GM was about five years ago. They have a few solid mainstays on the ground now - the Mustang, Fusion, Edge (and its Lincoln variant) and of course, the F-150 - but their definitive future lies in the new stuff that's coming. The stuff they needed yesterday, like the unfortunately named Flex and the upcoming production executions of the Verve concepts. I believe Ford has great promise, but they need to maintain enough momentum in the market with what they have, so that when their new stuff gets here it has a chance to hit the ground running. A tall order indeed, but I believe that Ford is finally - finally - on the right track.

[rmc523]

I, for one, am glad to see that Toyota is no longer getting a free pass by everybody. It seems that the media is finally waking up to the fact that Toyota is not the perfect "American" company they portray themselves to be.

 

I hope it continues and that we see less of this to Toyota by both the media and the American people:

:bowdown:

[pcsario]

autoextremist is far from being pro-toyota, it hardly is a sign of things to come.

 

the media are a bunch of crowd pleasers

 

they won't change their tune until audiences enjoy bad press for Toyota.

[rmc523]

autoextremist is far from being pro-toyota, it hardly is a sign of things to come.

 

the media are a bunch of crowd pleasers

 

they won't change their tune until audiences enjoy bad press for Toyota.

 

Well I enjoy bad press for Toyota.....does that count?

 

Yeah for bad Toyota press!!

:cheerleader:

[Mark B. Morrow]

I do read DeLorenzo regularly but I take him with a grain of salt. I think the recent releases from Chrysler are significant in that they realize how bad their current product looks. The Cerberus guys were probably sold a bill of goods by Daimler and they didn't know enough to figure it out. Redoing the Sebring/Avenger and the Jeeps is a good start. They have identified the problem. It remains to be seen if they can fix it.

 

Jim Press may be smug. It comes from selling Toyotas during the years when they could do no wrong. Nardelli can probably learn enough quick enough if he tries real hard and gets some good counsel. Cerberus has aparently decided to bite the bullet and spend some cash to preserve their investment. I'm not convinced that Ghosn and Renault-Nissan would be a good partner for Chrysler.

 

It is funny seeing the Toyota guys getting cranky about the tundra. They spent years sacrificing profit for market share. Now that they tried to go after Detroit's bread and butter by fire selling the Tundra they are Shocked, that the Big 3 are fighting back. Who did they think they were dealing with, the French? (No the Germans will never come through the forest again).

 

Toyota is getting almost as much flak from the Greenies for the Tundra and Sequoia as Ford did for the Excursion. The more successful Toyota becomes the more critical Americans will be. We love underdogs here.

 

As for Ford, I think he is right about them being on the right track, but wrong in comparing them to GM of 2003. Ford is in better shape product wise than GM was in '03. Sure it would be great to have the '10 models ready now but they are 12-18 months away. I can't think of many ground breaking successes GM had ready to go for '05.

[rmc523]

As for Ford, I think he is right about them being on the right track, but wrong in comparing them to GM of 2003. Ford is in better shape product wise than GM was in '03. Sure it would be great to have the '10 models ready now but they are 12-18 months away. I can't think of many ground breaking successes GM had ready to go for '05.

 

I agree.

[Blueblood]

I wish we'd just ban Toyota from selling more than a thousand cars here, I'd love to see their arrogant executives bitching then. How many cars are we allowed to sell in their sick country? What about Korea?

[FordBuyer]

I wish we'd just ban Toyota from selling more than a thousand cars here, I'd love to see their arrogant executives bitching then. How many cars are we allowed to sell in their sick country? What about Korea?

 

 

The Japanese had a very low opinion of us before WW2, during WW2, and I have the feeling they still have a low opinion of us. They just see us as a low cost Overseas country to assemble vehicles in and with the world's biggest open consumer economy a good place to sell vehicles in plus many other finished goods. Other than that, they could care less about us. They were arrogant during WW2 and they are still arrogant. The only respect they have for us is how we would respect a rattlesnake...be nice, leave it alone, and whatever you do, don't rile it up. If Toyota had to lay off half its American workforce, I would feel bad for the workers like I feel bad for Domestic workers losing their jobs, but other than that could care less.

[old_fairmont_wagon]

For years, most of the exporting world used to look to the US as the largest single market for their goods. It was in their best interests to keep us happy, even if they hated us with a passion. Evne the middle east used to view us as the source of their milk money. Oil in and of itself, is useless to them in the amounts that it comes out of the ground, but, with a willing and hungry market like the US, it enabled them to go from living in tents and riding camels to living in the biggest palaces on earth and riding in the most expensive cars and planes ever built.

 

Now, the US dollar is falling in value. The US market is close to being no longer the single largest consumer market in the world (hello China!). So, compounding the world's distaste for the US is the fact that they have less and less use for us. No longer are they willing to bend over backwards for us like they used to because it was in their finanacial best interests. Now, they say piss off and sell to the next market willing to spend a buck.

 

Toyota is in very much the same boat. If they couldn't build their vehicles here more cheaply than they could elsewhere, then they wouldn't do it at all. Once that ceases to be the case, I can garuntee you that the very next day they will break ground for factories elsewhere and the day the doors of those other factories open will be the day that the doors of their factories here close.

[P71_CrownVic]

I wish we'd just ban Toyota from selling more than a thousand cars here, I'd love to see their arrogant executives bitching then.

If you do that, you might as well ban Honda and Mazda too.

[CarShark]

I've never liked Auto Extremist. He's way too anti-Toyota for my taste and he acts like he's in GM's pocket. One thing I hate about domestic boards is the portrayal of it being the Evil Empire. Just too out there. A lot of sour grapes.

Edited January 25, 2008 by CarShark

[NLPRacing]

If you do that, you might as well ban Honda and Mazda too.

 

Works for me. How about these too; Nissan, Subaru, VW, Volvo, etc...

[xr7g428]

China is about to learn the peril of being a manufacturing based economy. When the product stops selling, you still have to pay for the factory. As much as it may pain some of the readers on this board, product design, development and distribution is where the money is, and the risk isn't. A slow down in the economy here will be unpleasant for us, but a catastrophe for them. When products don't sell, we just stop buying. We have ousorced the layoffs and unemployement as well as the jobs. The Japan bubble was burst upon the belief that here would be long term growth based on manufacturing for export. A little sniffle in the US turned into a 30 year recession for them. Want to see what really effects oil prices? Just stick around for the China correction.

 

The housing bubble will clear itself pretty quickly. There is a price that can clear the market, and lower interest rates are a piece of the price correction. The reduction in value of the dollar is like a wave moving away from the shore, only to be matched by the returning wave. As the value drops, foreign investment moves away from the dollar: a shrinking dollar shrinks returns. Once the market perceives that the bottom has arrived, the investment money flows back in. A rising dollar is good for investments. Canadians are flocking to Arizona to buy real estate. The cheap dollar, combined with a price correction, and low interest rates, combine to make that winter home irresistible. Made in the USA is on sale, and buyers are lining up. In the final analysis, the currency will have more to do with how Cerberus comes out on the Chrysler deal, than anything else.

 

It looks like the Arabs have decided that $3 is the tipping point for gasoline in the USA. After years of keeping oil cheap and production high, they got a taste of higher prices, and wanted to believe that the US economy really could afford to pay more. They have now had a peek over the edge and they don't like the heights quite as much as they had thought. They may have grossly miscalculated. The tipping point is really much lower. For petroleum, the cost of producing from the tar sands has dropped by an order of magnitude, while the selling price has tripled. In 1974 it cost about $1 a watt to produce solar energy. To day it is less than .1o cents and soon closing on .01. There was no ethanol alternative. Total energy production is set to rise like never before. Iraq will be going back on line soon. The rest of the Arabs will be forced to produce more to maintain the income they need to finance the lifestyle they have grown to expect. I suspect that Chavez is going to experience his worst nightmare: the money is going to run out. At $20 a barrel no one cared to look for alternatives, at $80 we are obsessed with it.

Edited January 25, 2008 by xr7g428

[P71_CrownVic]

Works for me. How about these too; Nissan, Subaru, VW, Volvo, etc...

No, just the big 3 (of Japan that is...).

[NLPRacing]

No, just the big 3 (of Japan that is...).

 

Nissan is "bigger" then Mazda...

[mettech]

I wish we'd just ban Toyota from selling more than a thousand cars here, I'd love to see their arrogant executives bitching then. How many cars are we allowed to sell in their sick country? What about Korea?

 

 

 

Make what the consumer wants, or get out of the business. Our Government has never forced anyone to buy imports over domestic produced products.

 

Why blame the government(s) when the consummation issue is with the consumer.

 

The Big 3 image and products are the problem. For example.... The Fusion is made in Mexico, but the Accord and Camry is made in the U.S.

 

It' always easer to blame someone else for our failures than it is to fix it. :shades:

[atomaro]

Thats being way too kind about GM.

[156n3rd]

The Japanese had a very low opinion of us before WW2, during WW2, and I have the feeling they still have a low opinion of us. They just see us as a low cost Overseas country to assemble vehicles in and with the world's biggest open consumer economy a good place to sell vehicles in plus many other finished goods. Other than that, they could care less about us. They were arrogant during WW2 and they are still arrogant. The only respect they have for us is how we would respect a rattlesnake...be nice, leave it alone, and whatever you do, don't rile it up. If Toyota had to lay off half its American workforce, I would feel bad for the workers like I feel bad for Domestic workers losing their jobs, but other than that could care less.

After reading the AUTOEXTREMIST site ( I couldn't get on from my short-cut), I have mixed feelings about this. Yes, the Japanese were sneaky back in 1941 and yes, The U.S. prevailed. Then we re-built the place for them. Now, they have become a mighty manufacturing country, like we used to be. I think that is the point that should be addressed here. The Toyota exces are feeling the pressure because the company can't understand failure. No one country or manufacturing method is the best or without fault and Toyota may well have seen their apex, for whatever reasons. AUTOEXREMIST likes to pickpickpick because the founder comes from an advertising and writing background.

Edited January 25, 2008 by 156n3rd

[NLPRacing]

 

Make what the consumer wants, or get out of the business. Our Government has never forced anyone to buy imports over domestic produced products.

 

Why blame the government(s) when the consummation issue is with the consumer.

 

The Big 3 image and products are the problem. For example.... The Fusion is made in Mexico, but the Accord and Camry is made in the U.S.

 

It' always easer to blame someone else for our failures than it is to fix it. :shades:

 

State & local governments has made it far too easy for foreign companies to build factories here then it should of been. For example, cities like San Antonio give Toyota everything they want to bring in a non-union plant into Texas (and a bunch of tier 1 suppliers that are mostly Japanese transplant & Toyota owned companies that use mostly Japanese sourced tooling and raw materials) to build full size trucks while Ford has to close a union plant in Norfolk. I personally see something wrong with that...

 

Ford, GM & Chrysler made the mess that they are currently in. But, the government is not only not helping, they are going out of their way to hurt things. For example, there is tax incentives to buy hybrid vehicles, most of which are foreign made. I don't think that is good for America.

 

I need to make a correction here: "The Fusion is assembled in Mexico using parts sourced from the US and other countries, and the Accord and Camry are assembled in the U.S. using parts that are mostly made with Japanese sourced tooling & raw materials"

 

There's always two sides to every story...

[mettech]

State & local governments has made it far too easy for foreign companies to build factories here then it should of been. For example, cities like San Antonio give Toyota everything they want to bring in a non-union plant into Texas (and a bunch of tier 1 suppliers that are mostly Japanese transplant & Toyota owned companies that use mostly Japanese sourced tooling and raw materials) to build full size trucks while Ford has to close a union plant in Norfolk. I personally see something wrong with that...

 

Ford, GM & Chrysler made the mess that they are currently in. But, the government is not only not helping, they are going out of their way to hurt things. For example, there is tax incentives to buy hybrid vehicles, most of which are foreign made. I don't think that is good for America.

 

I need to make a correction here: "The Fusion is assembled in Mexico using parts sourced from the US and other countries, and the Accord and Camry are assembled in the U.S. using parts that are mostly made with Japanese sourced tooling & raw materials"

 

There's always two sides to every story...

 

Check what the % of parts made outside of America on the Accord, Camry and Fusion. Also check out the Honda Goldwing.

 

The U.S. should make every effort to get new jobs in this country from outside companies. It enhances world stability.

[toyboxrv]

Check what the % of parts made outside of America on the Accord, Camry and Fusion. Also check out the Honda Goldwing.

 

The U.S. should make every effort to get new jobs in this country from outside companies. It enhances world stability.

 

I looked at data on Automotive News last summer. At the time Ford had sold around 2.1 million vehicles so far in the calendar year in the US. They had produced 1.9 million in just the US. Compare those numbers to what Toyota or Honda do. Maybe you're not aware of the number of vehicles that get exported from the US by Ford. It's easy to bring up the Fusion that had a lot of engineering and parts made in the US and only mention that it was assembled in Mexico. Ford still provides way more jobs in the US and the value of their manufacturing here is way higher than either Toyota or Honda. Those that think Ford and GM are outsourcing all their jobs and Toyota and Honda are bringing more here need a reality check.

[rmc523]

I looked at data on Automotive News last summer. At the time Ford had sold around 2.1 million vehicles so far in the calendar year in the US. They had produced 1.9 million in just the US. Compare those numbers to what Toyota or Honda do. Maybe you're not aware of the number of vehicles that get exported from the US by Ford. It's easy to bring up the Fusion that had a lot of engineering and parts made in the US and only mention that it was assembled in Mexico. Ford still provides way more jobs in the US and the value of their manufacturing here is way higher than either Toyota or Honda. Those that think Ford and GM are outsourcing all their jobs and Toyota and Honda are bringing more here need a reality check.

 

I agree, well said.

[mettech]

Don't generalize your replies....

 

Refer to individual products, not companies.

 

I will not buy another vehicle that is made/assembled outside of the U.S.

 

I will always try to buy a product that is made with the most domestic % as possible regardless of manufacture.

 

The Fusion and Focus are now off my list..(not that they were on my list in the first place )

 

U.S. Made % Rankings

Edited January 28, 2008 by mettech

[CarShark]

State & local governments has made it far too easy for foreign companies to build factories here then it should of been. For example, cities like San Antonio give Toyota everything they want to bring in a non-union plant into Texas (and a bunch of tier 1 suppliers that are mostly Japanese transplant & Toyota owned companies that use mostly Japanese sourced tooling and raw materials) to build full size trucks while Ford has to close a union plant in Norfolk. I personally see something wrong with that...

Well I don't. Ford's own money problems are the reason they have to close down Norfolk. Toyota wants to make a new plant in the U.S., that's their business. Besides, those tax breaks and incentives go to the Big Three when they build a new plant down south, too. Don't act like the import brands aren't the only ones taking advantage of their anti-union behavior.

 

But, the government is not only not helping, they are going out of their way to hurt things. For example, there is tax incentives to buy hybrid vehicles, most of which are foreign made. I don't think that is good for America.

I don't like the government getting involved in energy policy, but since it's almost inextricably linked with national security nowadays... Anyways, I'd rather they reward drivers of efficient cars rather than punish drivers of inefficient ones. Once again, it's not the government's fault that the Big Three weren't making efficient cars at the outset. They're making them now, and since Toyota's sold so many hybrids, they no longer qualify for the rebate. At least in the near future, the Big Three and others are at an advantage.

[mettech]

How American is that car?

 

2007 MY Data

Model % American Made parts

 

Fusion 50%

500/Taurus 80%

 

Accord 70%

Civic 55%

 

Sienna 85%

Camry 80%/75%

Avalon 75%

Corolla 60%

Corolla Matrix 70%