2010 Fusion GT: 340hp EB V6

[NickF1011]

Out handle huh?

 

Heres a scenario: I driving down a windy country road in my AWD Taurus. I brake into a turn, so the Intelligent AWD system has 100% of the power applied to the front being that the car is biased towards this. As my foot is off the accelerator, its system won't begin to move any of the power to rear. This is a good thing, it keeps me from going into a slide!

 

However, thats exactly what I want to do! I want to bring the car into a controlled over-steer, but without any torque in my rear, I can't hand the rear out. The powertrain won't let me....especially when I combine it with the stability/traction control systems built into this "safest car in America" Ford Taurus.

 

But you seem to think otherwise. Please...explain.

 

How exactly would you propose putting the car into a controlled oversteer without using any throttle in the first place?

[JW]

Sheesh! Even an AWD system with HEAVY rear bias won't let you do that. Nice try, though...

[akirby]

Since when is oversteer considered better handling?

[wescoent]

Out handle huh?

 

Heres a scenario: I driving down a windy country road in my AWD Taurus. I brake into a turn, so the Intelligent AWD system has 100% of the power applied to the front being that the car is biased towards this. As my foot is off the accelerator, its system won't begin to move any of the power to rear. This is a good thing, it keeps me from going into a slide!

 

However, thats exactly what I want to do! I want to bring the car into a controlled over-steer, but without any torque in my rear, I can't hand the rear out. The powertrain won't let me....especially when I combine it with the stability/traction control systems built into this "safest car in America" Ford Taurus.

 

But you seem to think otherwise. Please...explain.

 

Drift is for show, grip is for go.

 

I again pose the question... controlled oversteer without throttle?

 

Secondly, why would you WANT to drift a turn if you can go just as fast around it with all four tires hooked up to the road?

 

I've taken hairpin turns at INSANE speeds with the RS4, and it's never broken traction. An M3 would be in the woods if it tried that.

[Deanh]

Correction:

 

"We will see shortly if the American consumer wants an unreliable compact car with a diesel engine priced around $23k"

I think you are ALL 4k short....Milms just short of his faculties........

[RichardJensen]

It already does, the Taurus take a 4mpg hit in mileage, and the Edge 2mpg, while the system Nissan and Hyundai use have 0 mileage penalty on the highway.

There's a different final drive ratio on the AWD Taurus & Edge.

[RichardJensen]

Out handle huh?

 

Heres a scenario: I driving down a windy country road in my AWD Taurus. I brake into a turn, so the Intelligent AWD system has 100% of the power applied to the front being that the car is biased towards this. As my foot is off the accelerator, its system won't begin to move any of the power to rear. This is a good thing, it keeps me from going into a slide!

 

However, thats exactly what I want to do! I want to bring the car into a controlled over-steer, but without any torque in my rear, I can't hand the rear out. The powertrain won't let me....especially when I combine it with the stability/traction control systems built into this "safest car in America" Ford Taurus.

 

But you seem to think otherwise. Please...explain.

as has been pointed out, why do you want to slide through a turn? To show off/scare the crap out of your gf/front seat passenger?

 

If drifting through corners were faster than steering through them, then why don't F1 cars drift?

 

---

 

In terms of creating controlled oversteer, again, as has been pointed out, you need to put your foot on the gas to bring the rear end around. Putting your foot into the gas, combined with your steering inputs will result in power being shifted to the rear.

[morgande]

Drift is for show, grip is for go.

 

I again pose the question... controlled oversteer without throttle?

 

Secondly, why would you WANT to drift a turn if you can go just as fast around it with all four tires hooked up to the road?

 

I've taken hairpin turns at INSANE speeds with the RS4, and it's never broken traction. An M3 would be in the woods if it tried that.

 

Drift for show? Granted, in an ideal situation you can maneuver a turn using simply grip and throttle, and position yourself so that you can accelerate out of the turn and do so in an effective manner.

 

However, only pedigree sports cars and achieve such a maneuver. You can maneuver any vehicle around a turn in this manner, however the question is how fast can you do it?

 

Since most normal cars don't have enough grip to negotiate a turn at high speeds, the solution is throw the car into a controlled oversteer. With most vehicles, I can negotiate a turn faster in oversteer than I can by reducing speed but with full grip. The only thing I need to be concerned with is that I don't oversteer past the turn apex, as I want to accelerate out of the turn, not bring the car out of oversteer.

 

Yes any car will need throttle to control oversteer, but here is what I see: You begin to negotiate a turn by braking. The FWD bias is in full effect here, so power being applied up front. The AWD system prevents you from oversteering in this manner...let alone getting to a point where you can control the oversteer once in it with throttle. So you would have to purposely brake early and coast up to the turn (because your need to control the speed at which your going around the turn), then immediately go WOT and turn sharply to get the vehicle to begin to oversteer. However, by the time you done this, your more than likely past the apex of a turn but still in oversteer and while you should be accelerating out, your bringing the car out of oversteer.

 

The RWD car doesn't have to do the extra step slowing so early to control the speed. So he oversteers earlier, and as he approaches the apex of the turn he's also bringing the car out of oversteer, allowing him to accelerate through the rest of the turn. His apex is far later than that of the car with full grip, but he is moving faster than he would at full grip, meaning he negotiates faster.

 

Or am I wrong?

[Deanh]

Drift for show? Granted, in an ideal situation you can maneuver a turn using simply grip and throttle, and position yourself so that you can accelerate out of the turn and do so in an effective manner.

 

However, only pedigree sports cars and achieve such a maneuver. You can maneuver any vehicle around a turn in this manner, however the question is how fast can you do it?

 

Since most normal cars don't have enough grip to negotiate a turn at high speeds, the solution is throw the car into a controlled oversteer. With most vehicles, I can negotiate a turn faster in oversteer than I can by reducing speed but with full grip. The only thing I need to be concerned with is that I don't oversteer past the turn apex, as I want to accelerate out of the turn, not bring the car out of oversteer.

 

Yes any car will need throttle to control oversteer, but here is what I see: You begin to negotiate a turn by braking. The FWD bias is in full effect here, so power being applied up front. The AWD system prevents you from oversteering in this manner...let alone getting to a point where you can control the oversteer once in it with throttle. So you would have to purposely brake early and coast up to the turn (because your need to control the speed at which your going around the turn), then immediately go WOT and turn sharply to get the vehicle to begin to oversteer. However, by the time you done this, your more than likely past the apex of a turn but still in oversteer and while you should be accelerating out, your bringing the car out of oversteer.

 

The RWD car doesn't have to do the extra step slowing so early to control the speed. So he oversteers earlier, and as he approaches the apex of the turn he's also bringing the car out of oversteer, allowing him to accelerate through the rest of the turn. His apex is far later than that of the car with full grip, but he is moving faster than he would at full grip, meaning he negotiates faster.

 

Or am I wrong?

ask Audi and their race cars when they were AWD and were burdened/ handicapped with extra weight to LEVEL an obvious advantage over RWD...............

[RichardJensen]

Or am I wrong?

Yes.

 

Your assumption is that Ford's system preemptively transfers torque based solely on throttle position. That is not the case. You say, "no torque is being transferred because my foot is not on the gas", in fact, the combination of speed and steering input have probably already engaged a torque transfer to the rear. You are in a situation that is ripe for understeer in a vehicle that is normally FWD, which your AWD system has recognized and has begun transferring torque rearward to provide neutral steering.

 

See, you're approaching this entirely from the 'RWD' point of view, not the 'FWD' point of view.

 

With an FWD vehicle, entering/exiting a turn in a manner that you describe is exceedingly dangerous, therefore if the vehicle is normally FWD, AWD will be engaged to prevent the sorts of issues that come with making that sort of maneuver with a FWD car.

Edited July 8, 2008 by RichardJensen

[wescoent]

Yes any car will need throttle to control oversteer, but here is what I see: You begin to negotiate a turn by braking. The FWD bias is in full effect here, so power being applied up front. The AWD system prevents you from oversteering in this manner...let alone getting to a point where you can control the oversteer once in it with throttle. So you would have to purposely brake early and coast up to the turn (because your need to control the speed at which your going around the turn), then immediately go WOT and turn sharply to get the vehicle to begin to oversteer. However, by the time you done this, your more than likely past the apex of a turn but still in oversteer and while you should be accelerating out, your bringing the car out of oversteer.

 

The RWD car doesn't have to do the extra step slowing so early to control the speed. So he oversteers earlier, and as he approaches the apex of the turn he's also bringing the car out of oversteer, allowing him to accelerate through the rest of the turn. His apex is far later than that of the car with full grip, but he is moving faster than he would at full grip, meaning he negotiates faster.

 

Or am I wrong?

 

When you apply throttle in the AWD Taurus, the power all goes to the rear wheels to allow the front to have maximum grip, so you aren't in the ditch. Go into the corner however fast you want. Either you'll be maintaining grip, or the AWD system will shift all the torque to the rear wheels, and you can drift it. Ford's AWD system knows to shift the torque BEFORE it's needed, unlike Haldex, which shifts it after it detects slip.

 

AWD allows a MUCH higher speed through turns.

 

If I had a BMW M3, if I throttled up as I go into the turn, my rear tires have to deal with both maintaining lateral grip in the turn, AND slamming 400hp to the pavement to push the car forward. Not physically possible, so the tires break free, and you need to drift, causing your front passenger to soil him or herself.

 

Since I have an Audi RS4, as I throttle up going into the turn, the power is being divided between all four wheels, versus only two. Therefore, although 420hp is still going to the pavement, it's divided up, so each tire needs to do less work, hence you can apply a MUCH greater lateral force to them, and they won't break free. Hence, I negotiate the turn at a FAR higher speed than the M3, all while maintaining grip, and my front passenger does not soil him or her self.

[wescoent]

In summary.

 

RWD > FWD

 

AWD > RWD

[morgande]

ask Audi and their race cars when they were AWD and were burdened/ handicapped with extra weight to LEVEL an obvious advantage over RWD...............

 

In Rally racing! But thats quite different than normal performance driving. I'm talking about the weekend warrior who takes a Pontiac G8, Dodge Charger, and Ford Taurus EB down to Virgina Motor Speedway and has a run at the track on a dry track day.

[RichardJensen]

In Rally racing!

No. Not in Rally racing. In road racing.

[Deanh]

In Rally racing! But thats quite different than normal performance driving. I'm talking about the weekend warrior who takes a Pontiac G8, Dodge Charger, and Ford Taurus EB down to Virgina Motor Speedway and has a run at the track on a dry track day.

was ALSO on the track...they were literally whitewashing the competition.........and FYI ALL WRC cars are awd now....makes one wonder.....

Edited July 8, 2008 by Deanh

[NLPRacing]

In Rally racing! But thats quite different than normal performance driving. I'm talking about the weekend warrior who takes a Pontiac G8, Dodge Charger, and Ford Taurus EB down to Virgina Motor Speedway and has a run at the track on a dry track day.

 

 

No. Not in Rally racing. In road racing.

 

 

In the Speed World Challenge GT & Touring, the Audi's were killing everybody (Vette's, Viper's, Mustang's, etc.) with their AWD, especially in the wet.

[morgande]

When you apply throttle in the AWD Taurus, the power all goes to the rear wheels to allow the front to have maximum grip, so you aren't in the ditch. Go into the corner however fast you want. Either you'll be maintaining grip, or the AWD system will shift all the torque to the rear wheels, and you can drift it. Ford's AWD system knows to shift the torque BEFORE it's needed, unlike Haldex, which shifts it after it detects slip.

 

AWD allows a MUCH higher speed through turns.

 

If I had a BMW M3, if I throttled up as I go into the turn, my rear tires have to deal with both maintaining lateral grip in the turn, AND slamming 400hp to the pavement to push the car forward. Not physically possible, so the tires break free, and you need to drift, causing your front passenger to soil him or herself.

 

Since I have an Audi RS4, as I throttle up going into the turn, the power is being divided between all four wheels, versus only two. Therefore, although 420hp is still going to the pavement, it's divided up, so each tire needs to do less work, hence you can apply a MUCH greater lateral force to them, and they won't break free. Hence, I negotiate the turn at a FAR higher speed than the M3, all while maintaining grip, and my front passenger does not soil him or her self.

 

Your Audi Vs Fords Taurus AWD

 

Your not going to be driving along, then all of a sudden throttle up. Your going to approach the turn with foot on the brake first!

 

Audi...has a 40:60 split, which means power was already being divided nearly identically between front and rear. Even if it wasn't quite 40:60, the car was putting power down on all 4 in some capacity.

 

The Ford...remember we were braking before we began to accelerate around the turn...full bias is in effect! So while the audi...while braking before accelerating, was at 40:60 (or some ratio), the Ford is at 100:0 while the vehicle was braking.

 

As you begin throttle, the Audi is already at the point were the vehicle is near 50/50 split. But the Ford is accelerating for the first time (as moments before you were slowing down to begin to negotiate the turn). This means that 100:0 is now 70:30 or some point depending on throttle. It won't even begin to reach 50:50 util you been going on the throttle quite a bit. Not to WOT, but you definately got on the throttle to get it to that point where your at 50:50, 40:60, or 10:90 or at best 0:100 at full throttle.

 

Don't try to compare Audis AWD to Ford in this application. The Ford can't begin to match a point, where both vehicles are point down the EXACT power and the EXACT same time across all 4 wheels. The AUDI had an advantage over the Ford in this respect, and it never had to begin to throttle down from 100:0 because its 40:60

 

The Ford starts off at a much more bias ratio, and there is no way its gonna turn the corner the same way. Its 100% front bias hinders its ability to negotiate the turn fast. It may do so safely, but performance oriented...I just don't see how.

[Edstock]

THen there were the FWD wizards and their rallying Mini's like Paddy Hopkirk and a whole bunch from Finland, who discovered the use of the parking brake with FWD — instant RWD-style controllable power-slide. If you search, there are some amazing videos with on-board footage of just how they did it.

[morgande]

Talking about how Audi race bread cars do is WAAAAAY off topic to this post. My argument:

 

FORD (not Audi) AWD Fusion (or even Taurus) will be a poor performance vehicle, even with 340hp. Will it be a better performer than a normal Fusion or Taurus? Sure! But when compared with other performance vehicles, its not going to do well.

[wescoent]

Your Audi Vs Fords Taurus AWD

 

Your not going to be driving along, then all of a sudden throttle up. Your going to approach the turn with foot on the brake first!

 

Audi...has a 40:60 split, which means power was already being divided nearly identically between front and rear. Even if it wasn't quite 40:60, the car was putting power down on all 4 in some capacity.

 

The Ford...remember we were braking before we began to accelerate around the turn...full bias is in effect! So while the audi...while braking before accelerating, was at 40:60 (or some ratio), the Ford is at 100:0 while the vehicle was braking.

 

As you begin throttle, the Audi is already at the point were the vehicle is near 50/50 split. But the Ford is accelerating for the first time (as moments before you were slowing down to begin to negotiate the turn). This means that 100:0 is now 70:30 or some point depending on throttle. It won't even begin to reach 50:50 util you been going on the throttle quite a bit. Not to WOT, but you definately got on the throttle to get it to that point where your at 50:50, 40:60, or 10:90 or at best 0:100 at full throttle.

 

Don't try to compare Audis AWD to Ford in this application. The Ford can't begin to match a point, where both vehicles are point down the EXACT power and the EXACT same time across all 4 wheels. The AUDI had an advantage over the Ford in this respect, and it never had to begin to throttle down from 100:0 because its 40:60

 

The Ford starts off at a much more bias ratio, and there is no way its gonna turn the corner the same way. Its 100% front bias hinders its ability to negotiate the turn fast. It may do so safely, but performance oriented...I just don't see how.

 

As soon as I get on the throttle in the Taurus in the turn, the AWD has already shifted to the optimum split. Thus the joys of electronic AWD... it happens in an instant, versus mechanical AWD, which takes a moment.

 

Trust me... when I test drove the Fusion AWD (mine was a Milan V6 demo from a friend's dealer), I spent the entire time trying to confuse it into a less than optimal split... I couldn't do it. I took a turn exactly as I described... I approached at high speed, cut the wheel, and mashed the throttle. No understeer... it just hooked up and WENT. The poor seat bolstering almost threw me out the door, but it performed like a champ.

[wescoent]

Talking about how Audi race bread cars do is WAAAAAY off topic to this post. My argument:

 

FORD (not Audi) AWD Fusion (or even Taurus) will be a poor performance vehicle, even with 340hp. Will it be a better performer than a normal Fusion or Taurus? Sure! But when compared with other performance vehicles, its not going to do well.

 

My experience indicates otherwise, assuming Ford uses the same intelligent AWD for the EB Taurus. All the Ford needs is enough power to accelerate, wide enough tires to hold in the corners, and the AWD will leave the Charger and G8 in the weeds every time.

[Deanh]

Talking about how Audi race bread cars do is WAAAAAY off topic to this post. My argument:

 

FORD (not Audi) AWD Fusion (or even Taurus) will be a poor performance vehicle, even with 340hp. Will it be a better performer than a normal Fusion or Taurus? Sure! But when compared with other performance vehicles, its not going to do well.

IF...it does see light of day...please name ONE vehicle with the credentials to stick with it either on twistie roads OR the track...feel free....don't get too exotic on me....I think you will be pleasently surprized IF indeed this Fusion sees the light of day.....and Audis superiority was DIRECTLY the result of its AWD superiority on track.....thus it was handicapped with additional weight to level the playing fields...in fact several times they LAPPED the competition till the rule book got altered at the requests of the RWD competition....

[Edstock]

Your going to approach the turn with foot on the brake first!

You know this how? Maybe the driver just lets off the throttle, first, then applies brakes. The point is, the Ford dynamic powertrain controls will adjust as wheel slippage changes by the millisecond.

 

The Ford...remember we were braking before we began to accelerate around the turn...full bias is in effect!

You know this how? Ford has changed from Haldex to a Ford system. The Ford system may or may not got to "full bias" at that point. The Ford system may or may not be able to have its parameters adjusted as to maximum allowable power transfer.

 

The point is, until somebody furnishes detailed descriptions, the capabilities of the 2K10-11 AWD system in the turbo Fusion are speculation. As to real-world driving, the current AWD Fusion seems to please.

[igor]

about AWD, drifts and speed and all that noise:

 

 

AWD > RWD

 

 

Igor

Edited July 8, 2008 by igor

[wescoent]

about drifts and speed and all that:

 

 

 

Igor

 

I was waiting for someone to post that...