Ford Revives "Hurricane" V8 To Battle Hemi by 2008

[calypsocoral]

Hardly changed? You're forgetting about that wonderful innovation added in 1985 (??) called FUEL INJECTION. It completely changed the game and the aftermarket pretty much had to start from scratch on it. EFI was paraded as the death of Mustang performance at the time. In hindsind, it probably SAVED the car from extinction. It wasn't until AFTER fuel-injection was introduced that the aftermarket for the 302 REALLY took off. So the real era of "5.0 performance" is generally limited to the years after EFI was launched.

 

But the engine itself dates back to at least 1969, where it was the powerplant for the legendary BOSS 302. It then became the sole V8 for the Mustang II when power output across the industry truely began to suck. That the 5.0 could be modified enough to survive into the early 1990's is pretty impressive. But its time came to an end. Unfortunately, the MOD family still has YET to impress me...

[silvrsvt]

Unfortunately, the MOD family still has YET to impress me...

 

 

I guess 300HP out of a 4.6L V3 isn't enough for you

 

Or 420HP out of a 4.6 Super Charged 4V isn't enough for you

 

Or even 500 out a Super Charged 5.4L 4V in a 40K Mustang

 

Or Finally a 550HP Supercharged 5.4L 4V in the GT isn't enough.

 

The best that factory 5.0L could do was 240HP

 

There no doubting that the 5.0L is a great engine to modify, but its been bested by the Mod motor in the past couple years with no problem. The first mod motors where weak, but once the hi-po heads got put on the 4.6L in 99, the engine came into its own.

[goldfinger4]

My manager (WEP) tells me the Hurricane program is now approved by the board and is going to Romeo. Can anybody there confirm this? Thanks

[bystander]

I guess 300HP out of a 4.6L V3 isn't enough for you

 

Or 420HP out of a 4.6 Super Charged 4V isn't enough for you

 

Or even 500 out a Super Charged 5.4L 4V in a 40K Mustang

 

Or Finally a 550HP Supercharged 5.4L 4V in the GT isn't enough.

 

The best that factory 5.0L could do was 240HP

 

There no doubting that the 5.0L is a great engine to modify, but its been bested by the Mod motor in the past couple years with no problem. The first mod motors where weak, but once the hi-po heads got put on the 4.6L in 99, the engine came into its own.

 

Honestly, compared to other engines, these examples don't particularly impress. What's so impressive about a supercharged 5.4L 4V V8 that makes 500 horses? The new Z06 engine makes 505 and it's normally aspirated pushrod 2V. There are plenty of other examples of seemingly lower tech engines that make as much or more power without forced induction of multiple valves. That supercharger and associated intercooler hardware add a heck of a lot of dead weight. The new GT500 is so heavy, it is bested by a standard (non Z06) Corvetted in acceleration testing.

[RichardJensen]

The new Z06 engine makes 505 and it's normally aspirated pushrod 2V.

The new 7 liter Z06, right?

 

Makes 72 hp/L.

 

The 3.0L Duratec V6 in the Fusion makes 74 hp/L

 

And to finish the comparison, the 5.4L S/C Shelby engine makes 93 hp/L

 

So yeah. There's a lot of dead weight somewhere.

[one2gamble]

Im just hoping the hurricane is a hi-po motor and not just a truck motor

[classicford]

I guess 300HP out of a 4.6L V3 isn't enough for you

 

Or 420HP out of a 4.6 Super Charged 4V isn't enough for you

 

Or even 500 out a Super Charged 5.4L 4V in a 40K Mustang

 

Or Finally a 550HP Supercharged 5.4L 4V in the GT isn't enough.

 

The best that factory 5.0L could do was 240HP

 

There no doubting that the 5.0L is a great engine to modify, but its been bested by the Mod motor in the past couple years with no problem. The first mod motors where weak, but once the hi-po heads got put on the 4.6L in 99, the engine came into its own.

 

That's comparing apples to oranges, in the 5.0L's heyday, engines (and that includes the first Modulars) usually made well under to just under 1HP/Cubic inch, rarely above it. Almost all of the engines you talk about have to be supercharged to amount to anything, which is kinda sad for an American V8.

 

The Boss 302 saw way over 400HP naturally aspirated in the Trans Am Mustangs, and those engines had just a few valvetrain, intake, and bottom end upgrades over their street cousins.

 

The biggest choke on the factory 5.0L's were the heads and intake, a problem that could have been solve with pennys on the dime compared to the Modular's R&D bill. The engines were aging, but minimal improvement could have been made to improve emissions, mileage, power, and durability for fractions of the Modular program's cost.

 

The compact, pushrod 5.0L made 225HP/300 ft. lbs. torque, in Cobra trim it made an underrated 240HP, probably closer to 275. The first Modulars made 215 HP in 2V form, with a torque curve nowhere near as impressive as the 5.0L's. Even the early DOHC 32V's made only 280HP, only marginally above the 5.0L Cobra's, which could achieve nearly the same, again with better torque, with merely 2 valves pushrod actuated. And those 5.0L's fit much more comfortably into a Mustang's engine bay, a Modular is phsyically larger than a 429 big block!

 

The Modular took an expensive production line revamp, all for an engine that weighs more, is physically bigger yet is capable of only 360 cubic inches max. And that's with a massive undersquare, something that revs don't agree with. A tall deck Windsor can handle over 430 cubic inches, and even a 302 can accomplish about 360 cubic inches. The Modular is more expensive to produce and more complicated to repair than a Windsor.

 

The reason Ford can't get their hi-po 5.4L's to rev is because the tiny bore and massive stroke cause such high piston speeds that stability is compromised at said speeds. Windsors never had this problem as they can accomodate up to a 4.125" bore, while a Modular maxes out at 3.7".

 

It has been continually proven the only way to get huge power numbers out of a Modular is to resort to forced induction. This has two causes, one being that the Modular's OHC design encourages it to rev too high for street use naturally aspirated, and the engine's dismal displacement potential.

 

I used to be a Modular fan, but the more I learned about them, the less I liked them....Windsors and 385 Series fat blocks make more performance sense and are much cheaper for me to build than a 4.6L.

[RichardJensen]

It has been continually proven the only way to get huge power numbers out of a Modular is to resort to forced induction. This has two causes, one being that the Modular's OHC design encourages it to rev too high for street use naturally aspirated, and the engine's dismal displacement potential.

Lets take a step back.

 

First: What is the primary advantage of an OHC valve train?

 

Once upon a time it was better breathing, especially at higher RPMs. Why? no pushrods and easier ability to support more than 2 valves per cylinder.

 

Is that still the case?

 

No. Improvements in metallurgy have resulted in far better pushrods, and better OHV valve trains meaning that little is compromised in terms of higher RPM airflow.

 

However, the advantage of greater valve area remains. With the Mods, this is compromised because of how narrow the bore of the cylinder is.

 

If you acknowledge that better breathing is not acheived by an OHC design, at least not as implemented in the Mods, does any advantage remain?

 

Yes.

 

OHC designs with current technology allow variable cam phasing. While this was not--initially--an advantage enjoyed by OHC engines, it is one that exists at present.

 

Now, who benefits from the ability to advance and retard the cam?

 

The aftermarket tuner, or the manufacturer?

 

Obviously, the manufacturer.

 

The mod is far easier to manage than outgoing OHV designs, from an OEM standpoint. For instance, Ford has been able to produce a smoother torque curve on the 5.4L, with a better emissions profile and better NVH characteristics than the Hemi and the Vortec engines.

 

Why?

 

Because it's an OHC design with variable valve timing technology. Further, the narrow bore and long stroke make emissions management easier. All other things being equal, a narrow bore provides a more complete burn.

 

Regarding the dimensions of the engine, remember that the Mod has a fairly deep skirt, as well as a long stroke (especially on the 5.4L engines).

 

Now, you say that the Mod is able to generate significant power only with forced induction.

 

Well, consider that the size of the block in relation to the long stroke makes forced induction possible.

 

If the Mod had the various limitations that are widely acknowledged (narrow bore spacing and long stroke), and the alleged limitation of OHC design, but did not have a robust block (high deck height to stroke ratio and deep skirt design), would it be possible to supercharge it at all?

 

That Ford can slap a 3 year warranty on an engine that has up to 9lbs of boost on it suggests that the Mod is--at least in some circles--underrated.

 

Underrated as a production engine used in OEM vehicles, that is.

 

When it comes to aftermarket fiddling, the Mod is too tall, too short, and equipped with a far too complex valvetrain.

 

However, the Mod does not serve, primarily, the aftermarket. The Mod serves Ford's trucks, SUVs and RWD cars. For the extremely rough use it is subject to there, it has proved more than adequate.

 

It can be said that Ford cannot ignore the aftermarket, which is true. However to suggest that an engine that is manifestly better suited to OEM applications (better emissions, better NVH, better torque management) should be dropped in favor of an outdated OHV design (a design which could not legally or quietly or smoothly produce Mod-type power), overstates the importance of the aftermarket.

 

I'm not going to say that the Mod is the "perfect" engine, nor am I going to say it's better than past Ford V8s in aftermarket appliations. However, it is a very solid compromise as an OEM engine. It has proven more flexible than GM's Northstar, and far more capable of sustaining forced induction than the LS series. It is smoother quieter and cleaner than the Hemi. It is (combining both 4.6L and 5.4L iterations) the most widely used V8 in the industry, and it has not fallen short as far as fitness for use in any OEM application.

Edited July 6, 2006 by RichardJensen

[7Mary3]

If the Mod. has not fallen short, than why is Ford proceding with the Hurricane?

[classicford]

Richard, never said the Modular wasn't a good OEM engine, I prefer it over its crosstown rivals any day of the week.

 

The Modular's block is lightyears ahead of the old thinwall-cast 5.0L blocks, too. 5.0L can withstand around 400HP reliably, the Modular has seen up to 900HP on an OEM block.

 

The 5.0L obviously has proven to be a great performance and aftermarket engine, and if built properly it's also a great little blower or turbo engine. Granted, I wouldn't run anything radical on the stock block or bottom end, but considering how many Mustangs end up with engine upgrades sooner or later, the 5.0L, albeit in a highly improved form, should still be in there.

 

Don't get me wrong, hi tech multivalve OHC engines are great for small displacement engines, and yes, the Modular truck engines have come a long way, but I think making a thoroughly modern 5.0L with a great torque curve would have taken considerably less effort (and money).

 

The very first Cobra DOHC heads flowed so well Ford had to restrict them at lower RPMs. The reason Ford put a blower on the 10th Anniversary Cobras was to provide instant torque, which they had been wrestling with since the Cobra 4.6L's introduction. These heads would be excellent for a larger engine, but alas, Ford messed that one up.....

 

In fact, the DOHC heads flow far better than almost any factory engine short of a supercar beast would require, which takes us back to the aftermarket. While the aftermarket does offer a considerable amount of goodies for the Modular, the engine is still in the Windsor's shadow, as one can build an all aluminum Windsor today that is able to rev to 8,000 RPM on factory lifters, all while continuing to weigh less and cost less than the Modular.

 

It's not that the Modular's a bad engine, it just happens to have a few qualities that tend to shoot the engine's potential in the foot....

[7Mary3]

Does anyone know yet if the 'Hurricane' will be a new engine family, or will it be based on the Modular/Triton.

Edited July 6, 2006 by 7Mary3

[Hugh]

I read somewhere it is not based on the Modular/Triton Family. Other then that, no idea.

[silvrsvt]

If the Mod. has not fallen short, than why is Ford proceding with the Hurricane?

 

Its not perfect and 5.4L engine isn't truly a big block engine like larger 6.1L Hemi or Chevy engines. It will improve upon the the modulars and I wouldnt be the least bit surprised to see Hurricane tech come back and fix the issues with the modulars.

 

I just can't stomach that the whole Modular engine program was compromised because of one nameplate..the Continental built off the old Taraus platform.

[RichardJensen]

The 5.0L obviously has proven to be a great performance and aftermarket engine, and if built properly it's also a great little blower or turbo engine. Granted, I wouldn't run anything radical on the stock block or bottom end, but considering how many Mustangs end up with engine upgrades sooner or later, the 5.0L, albeit in a highly improved form, should still be in there.

 

...

 

It's not that the Modular's a bad engine, it just happens to have a few qualities that tend to shoot the engine's potential in the foot....

Given that GM had to totally scrap the SBC (keeping only the bore center spacing), I don't see how Ford could get a sufficiently improved 5.0L engine with anything short of a clean sheet design.

 

The biggest problem I see with the Mod is bore spacing, and that only because of the 6.0L Vortec. Unlike the 5.7L Hemi, which offers only a marginal gain in torque at a much higher peak, the 6.0L Vortec looks to be a thoroughly superior engine to the 5.4L Triton (except, most likely, in emissions). I'm inclined to believe the ubiquity of the 6.0L Vortec, not the Hemi, drove the decision to continue the Hurricane program. All one has to do is note that the Escalade comes with 33% more hp and 25% more torque in order to see a need. Seeing that the 6.0L Vortec will end up in the light trucks as well, Ford really has to do something.

 

---

 

Also, the Hurricane will probably feature a more compact valve train (still OHC, though), possibly DAMBs, and it will also have a cross bolted deep skirt, which means that it's probably not going to be small or narrow, but neither is the new Hemi. It will be longer, and will probably have a shorter deck height.

 

"Modular" features that will be retained will be piston and connecting rod metallurgy (all Ford's 'mod' engines, including the Duratec 4s and 6s have cracked sintered connecting rods), as well as cam lobes that will be affixed to a camshaft, instead of a camshaft with machined lobes.

Edited July 6, 2006 by RichardJensen

[ANTAUS]

Has GM corrected the pistonslap issue of it's Vortec engines yet?

[7Mary3]

Depends on your definition of 'corrected'. The newer ones don't do it, but G.M. isn't recalling the old ones that do.

[NickF1011]

The new GT500 is so heavy, it is bested by a standard (non Z06) Corvetted in acceleration testing.

 

The standard Corvette runs 12.25 @ 117 mph?

[White99GT]

Honestly, compared to other engines, these examples don't particularly impress. What's so impressive about a supercharged 5.4L 4V V8 that makes 500 horses? The new Z06 engine makes 505 and it's normally aspirated pushrod 2V. There are plenty of other examples of seemingly lower tech engines that make as much or more power without forced induction of multiple valves. That supercharger and associated intercooler hardware add a heck of a lot of dead weight. The new GT500 is so heavy, it is bested by a standard (non Z06) Corvetted in acceleration testing.

 

The s/c 5.4L in the Ford GT really makes over 600 horsepower (540 - 550 rwhp).

 

The C6 Z06 engine is ~427 cubic inches and is so close to the edge rumor has it it isn't even rebuildable. There is no magic to this engine, with the exception of the cam, it is just as radical as any race ready pump gas SBF or SBC you will purchase from an aftermarket builder. It's 11:1 for Christs's sake and in the end it still only makes about 440 rwhp, WELL short of Ford's "top dog" s/c 330 cid V8.

 

The GT500 makes 500 horsepower (about 440 rwhp as well) but it isn't bieng stressed at all. The GT500 is going to be far more "modable" than the C6 Z06. Watch.

[classicford]

Also, the Hurricane will probably feature a more compact valve train (still OHC, though), possibly DAMBs, and it will also have a cross bolted deep skirt, which means that it's probably not going to be small or narrow, but neither is the new Hemi. It will be longer, and will probably have a shorter deck height.

 

"Modular" features that will be retained will be piston and connecting rod metallurgy (all Ford's 'mod' engines, including the Duratec 4s and 6s have cracked sintered connecting rods), as well as cam lobes that will be affixed to a camshaft, instead of a camshaft with machined lobes.

 

Richard,

Many people don't act like this engine won't completely replace the Modular within a couple of years. What's your opinion on that?

 

If this engine impresses me enough, and can be bored/stroked to at least 7.0L's, it's my new favorite engine.

 

I'm hoping physically the engine is no larger than an FE, which is smaller than a 429 (which is smaller than a Modular). I'm also expecting an all-aluminum version, as well as a DOHC. I'm hoping that Ford will fix the problem with the current DOHC heads, which have a sharp radius in the ports, instead of a smooth, straight path like the 3V's. The early DOHC heads also had some cooling problems, I think.

 

I'm guessing the engine will look a lot like the current Modular, and that the base engines will be iron block/3V heads. As long as it's smaller, lighter, and has capacity for a 4.00 inch bore and a 0.030 overbore or two on top of that, I'm happy and I'll probably be running OHC. The fact that you can't easily retrofit a SBF into the S197 Mustang as you could the SN95's has been the only thing keeping me out of them.

 

 

The s/c 5.4L in the Ford GT really makes over 600 horsepower (540 - 550 rwhp).

 

The C6 Z06 engine is ~427 cubic inches and is so close to the edge rumor has it it isn't even rebuildable. There is no magic to this engine, with the exception of the cam, it is just as radical as any race ready pump gas SBF or SBC you will purchase from an aftermarket builder. It's 11:1 for Christs's sake and in the end it still only makes about 440 rwhp, WELL short of Ford's "top dog" s/c 330 cid V8.

 

The GT500 makes 500 horsepower (about 440 rwhp as well) but it isn't bieng stressed at all. The GT500 is going to be far more "modable" than the C6 Z06. Watch.

 

The Z06 engine has a 4.125" bore. There's no way on earth you're going to be able to overbore that thing safely. Even the wildest SBF blocks you can buy with a 4.125" bore can only accomodate a single "30 over" safely, and that's putting things on the edge.

 

I heard Chevy was going to make a supercharged version of this engine that would rate at 680 HP, to have almost 100 cubic inches more than the comparable Ford engine yet get only 80 more HP...........

[bystander]

The new 7 liter Z06, right?

 

Makes 72 hp/L.

 

The 3.0L Duratec V6 in the Fusion makes 74 hp/L

 

And to finish the comparison, the 5.4L S/C Shelby engine makes 93 hp/L

 

So yeah. There's a lot of dead weight somewhere.

 

That's a BS comparison.

 

First of all, the discussion at hand was related to the modular V8 family compared to other V8 powerplants, so the 3.0L Duratec V6 isn't really pertinent.

 

Second, comparing a normally aspirated engine to another with forced induction in terms of specific output is misguided. My point was that the 7L from the Z06 makes more horsepower without the complexity, cost, and weight of supercharging, intercooling, and a 4V/cyl DOHC valvetrain. The 5.4L Shelby has an iron block wheras Z06 plant is all aluminum. I'll bet the mod weighs at least 100lbs more when the roots blower and plumbing for the air to water intercooler is taken into account (maybe much more). If you want a reasonable comparator for the 5.4L engine from the Shelby, look at the supercharged 4.4L from the Cadillac STS-V. It makes 469hp for a whopping 107hp/L.

[bystander]

The standard Corvette runs 12.25 @ 117 mph?

 

Car and Driver did a comparison test in the July 2006 issue and the base Corvette bested the GT500 in 0-60, 0-100, 0-150, 1/4 mile (ET and trap speed). The nose-heavy nature of the GT500 (only 42% of weight on the rear tires) was probably to blame for its poor showing. They also noted that the 5.4L in the GT500 weighs about 150lbs more than the normally aspirated 4.6L in the GT (due to the blower and associated intercooler plumbing).

[ford4v429]

I'm for one hoping the hurricane ends up being several things:

 

1) called 'boss'

2) REAL 'bigblock feel' - gotta be over 400 lb-ft@2k. with todays technology- should not be a problem...unless they reach solely for the big horsepower numbers. getting bigblock off idle power might mean a undersquare version with a very low redline- to keep cylinder pressures in check for todays lower octane gas...but still I'd rather drive a torque monster everyday than one with nild bottom end and gobs of 'horsepower' that I cant use legally.

 

my old 429 was rated at only 360 hp, but 480 lb-ft@ like 3200(from memory)- the torque made it fun...all that torque with only a smallblock stroke(3.59) required 11:1 compression in a huge hole(4.36)... I tend to think those days *might* be gone, but who knows. My son and I just tore it down Sunday- finally going to get after it and rebuilding the 69 mustang...seriously thinking about 'updating- funny Richard mentioned cam timing- Sunday I was just thinking about making a new front cover and going variable too theres a guy on ebay selling boss water outlets that would allow relocating the pump, and in a 69 body the fan/radiator are rediculous anyways...hmm...VVT/port injected 7 litre???further thinking, could keep the 11:1 pistons if servo throttle was kept- just dont open enough for zero vacuum in the higher volumetric efficiency low rpm range...

Might just have to pick up a spare ecm/electronics off a wrecked newer one to play around...

 

I think the new mustang has to get over 4k just to scratch 300 ft-lb- while the car definitely is strong, the soft bottom end(by old standards) still leaves a void. I'm wanting to get a roots blower already- but wife would probably kill me. Magnuson got an extra 140 ft-lb out of their(still not available) andI think it *might* have had the 400@2k but not sure- definitely a lot of everyday fun power added...I just need to drive the new one, and 'play' with the old one- with the kids...more fun that way.

[RichardJensen]

Richard,

Many people don't act like this engine won't completely replace the Modular within a couple of years. What's your opinion on that?

 

If this engine impresses me enough, and can be bored/stroked to at least 7.0L's, it's my new favorite engine.

 

I'm hoping physically the engine is no larger than an FE, which is smaller than a 429 (which is smaller than a Modular). I'm also expecting an all-aluminum version, as well as a DOHC. I'm hoping that Ford will fix the problem with the current DOHC heads, which have a sharp radius in the ports, instead of a smooth, straight path like the 3V's. The early DOHC heads also had some cooling problems, I think.

 

I'm guessing the engine will look a lot like the current Modular, and that the base engines will be iron block/3V heads. As long as it's smaller, lighter, and has capacity for a 4.00 inch bore and a 0.030 overbore or two on top of that, I'm happy and I'll probably be running OHC. The fact that you can't easily retrofit a SBF into the S197 Mustang as you could the SN95's has been the only thing keeping me out of them.

I think the DOHC heads are in something of a limbo. The existing DOHC heads aren't going to be reengineered until Ford decides whether or not they're going to have two V8 blocks. My assumption is that Ford will phase out the Mod in the same way the Duratec35 will phase out the Duratec30 block. I also assume that the Hurricane will feature much tighter accessory integration (a la the Duratec35 and the new SI6), which will lower the overall dimensions of the 'dressed' engine.

 

I don't think we'll see something as small as the FE, in fact I expect that we will see something the width and height of the 4.6L 3v Mod, but with displacements, out of the box, up to 6.2L and with some room to grow.

 

----

 

And Bystander, I view the S/C on the 5.4s as a 'give and take' kind of thing. Yeah, the Mod has displacement limitations, but it's also extremely reliable even with a blower bolted onto it. In the end, you have extra complexity, but it pays off according to a certain way of looking at it. If you're morally opposed to blowers, then yeah, I guess it's a problem, but if not...

[silvrsvt]

Car and Driver did a comparison test in the July 2006 issue and the base Corvette bested the GT500 in 0-60, 0-100, 0-150, 1/4 mile (ET and trap speed).

 

 

its common knowelege that Car and Driver Drivers can't drive a worth a fuck, they got the slowest speeds out of the GT500 out of most publications.

 

Then again why in the world are we compairing a 2 seat "sports car" to a 2+2 Pony car? Just because they have similar HP and price ranges? Its as stupid as the Mustang GT going up against the Lotus Exige on Top Gear and just as pointless.

 

In the "real world", it all boils down to driver skill who will win the day.

[bystander]

its common knowelege that Car and Driver Drivers can't drive a worth a fuck, they got the slowest speeds out of the GT500 out of most publications.

 

Then again why in the world are we compairing a 2 seat "sports car" to a 2+2 Pony car? Just because they have similar HP and price ranges? Its as stupid as the Mustang GT going up against the Lotus Exige on Top Gear and just as pointless.

 

In the "real world", it all boils down to driver skill who will win the day.

 

Well that's a good response. I don't like the outcome of the road test, so I'll just accuse the drivers of being incompetent or of making a stupid comparison in the first place.