NickF1011 Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 The entire automotive market is down 20%. Prove that the market share for $25K+ CUVs is shrinking by dividing the total number of $25K+ CUVs sold by the total number of vehicles sold in July 08 vs. July 07. Yes. Market SHARE for CUV's is actually up compared to year-ago numbers, particularly in Ford's numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SajeevMehta Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) The entire automotive market is down 20%. Prove that the market share for $25K+ CUVs is shrinking by dividing the total number of $25K+ CUVs sold by the total number of vehicles sold in July 08 vs. July 07. Sorry, don't have access to that info. And if I did, I'd get fired from my REAL job because I'm not a full time journalist. Judging by sales of the GM Lambas, the Flex, Edge and the Toyota Highlander, the market is shrinking. Maybe you are right, maybe it is in line with the general economic downturn...but I doubt it. Escapes, RAV4s and the like aren't hurting nearly as bad. Read more here: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/by-the-nu...sales-fizzle-2/ Or here: http://www.blueovalforums.com/forums/index...showtopic=26008 Despite a flood of new models in the segment, sales of crossovers were down 11% in July compared with July 2007, according to Autodata Corp., representing the third straight month of sharp declines amid a wider downturn in the overall market. Edited August 20, 2008 by SajeevMehta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SajeevMehta Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) Yes. Market SHARE for CUV's is actually up compared to year-ago numbers, particularly in Ford's numbers. The Ford Edge is down 6.5 percent this month compared to last. But I could be off base by looking at the short term numbers, since the Edge is up 13.8% YTD. I'll admit that. Edited August 20, 2008 by SajeevMehta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 The Ford Edge is down 6.5 percent this month compared to last. But I could be off base by looking at the short term numbers, since the Edge is up 13.8% YTD. I'll admit that. Even with the Edge down 6.5% last month, it increased market share, since the overall market was down more than that. With it up 13.8% YTD, it has undoubtedly increased market share considerably. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SajeevMehta Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Even with the Edge down 6.5% last month, it increased market share, since the overall market was down more than that. With it up 13.8% YTD, it has undoubtedly increased market share considerably. Which makes sense, and shows that there isn't enough space on the planet for the Edge and the Flex. I know which one I like better, and the market feels the same way... We need a few more months to get a real trend going, but it isn't looking pretty for the D3 Crossovers. (assuming the MKT still makes production) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Which makes sense, and shows that there isn't enough space on the planet for the Edge and the Flex. I know which one I like better, and the market feels the same way... We need a few more months to get a real trend going, but it isn't looking pretty for the D3 Crossovers. (assuming the MKT still makes production) I would personally buy a Flex before an Edge. A LOT more utility for a small fuel economy penalty. As for there not being enough room: If you want to go by that theory, Ford shouldn't bring the Fiesta here either. After all, the market is shrinking. There obviously isn't room for new vehicles. And MKT production has already been confirmed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Which makes sense, and shows that there isn't enough space on the planet for the Edge and the Flex. Why not? There is an average of ~2.5 children per household in the US. That means, on average, half the people have a family of 4 and half have a family of 5. If the family of 5 has three small children in safety seats, they won't comfortably (or at all) fit in the Edge. Therefore, they buy the Flex. The family of 4 will buy the Edge as it fits their needs, unless of course they just want the Flex. So, instead of trying to please everyone with one vehicle and pleasing no-one, you can please many with 2 different vehicles. Makes sense to me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
silvrsvt Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Which makes sense, and shows that there isn't enough space on the planet for the Edge and the Flex. I know which one I like better, and the market feels the same way... We need a few more months to get a real trend going, but it isn't looking pretty for the D3 Crossovers. (assuming the MKT still makes production) Nice way to make such sweeping generalizations about a product...same way some people said the Edge was gonna bomb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Judging by sales of the GM Lambas, the Flex, Edge and the Toyota Highlander, the market is shrinking. Maybe you are right, maybe it is in line with the general economic downturn...but I doubt it. Basic math - if the large CUV segment is down between 6% and 12% but the overall number of vehicles sold is down 20%, then by definition the large CUV segment market share is INCREASING. Let me spell it out for you: 20 large CUVs out of 100 total vehicles = 20% market share. 17.6 large CUVs (20 minus 12%) out of 80 total vehicles (100 minus 20%) = 22% market share. Get it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Basic math - if the large CUV segment is down between 6% and 12% but the overall number of vehicles sold is down 20%, then by definition the large CUV segment market share is INCREASING. Let me spell it out for you: 20 large CUVs out of 100 total vehicles = 20% market share. 17.6 large CUVs (20 minus 12%) out of 80 total vehicles (100 minus 20%) = 22% market share. Get it? Where can I buy .6 CUV's? J/K :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fordmantpw Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Where can I buy .6 CUV's? J/K :P Just buy one of the Lambda quadruplets, and you get 60% of a vehicle! For all you who can't tell, it's a joke and I am have no intention of starting any type of argument or bashing of the Lambdas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SajeevMehta Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 (edited) As for there not being enough room: If you want to go by that theory, Ford shouldn't bring the Fiesta here either. After all, the market is shrinking. There obviously isn't room for new vehicles. Except that compact cars have been a prominent part of the car biz since the 1970s, and Ford's hot/cold reaction to them ever since has been a big problem. CUVs aren't small cars. Honda isn't selling a lot of their latest Pilot or CR-V, its the Civic and Fit that's the hottest number these days. Creating CUVs is a gamble, having a strong reputation for small cars has been proven to be a necessity for decades. BIG difference. Edited August 20, 2008 by SajeevMehta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SajeevMehta Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Nice way to make such sweeping generalizations about a product...same way some people said the Edge was gonna bomb The truth hurts. The Flex isn't selling up to their 75k-100k annual target and one look at the beast and you know why. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SajeevMehta Posted August 20, 2008 Share Posted August 20, 2008 Basic math - if the large CUV segment is down between 6% and 12% but the overall number of vehicles sold is down 20%, then by definition the large CUV segment market share is INCREASING. Nice logic, where did you get those numbers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 The truth hurts. The Flex isn't selling up to their 75k-100k annual target and one look at the beast and you know why. The Flex has been on sale for about 2 months now....in an economic downturn....when the ENTIRE car market is down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akirby Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Nice logic, where did you get those numbers? I thought 12% was from the Ford sales numbers but I'm not sure - I didn't take the time to look it up. Just an educated worst case guess. The 20% came from a news article saying that overall sales for 2008 were expected to be down 20% over 2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SajeevMehta Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 (edited) The Flex has been on sale for about 2 months now....in an economic downturn....when the ENTIRE car market is down. True, but I think the base price of the Flex pretty much blows its chances of success. Not to mention its a hard sell a fully loaded Ford (that isn't a BOF truck) at $40,000 when people normally gravitate to a Lexus for that much coin. There's something about the Flex, when I saw it at the NAIAS, it just looked and felt like it was out of its league. If I'm wrong, fine, I'll gladly eat humble pie. Edited August 21, 2008 by SajeevMehta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 True, but I think the base price of the Flex pretty much blows its chances of success. Not to mention its a hard sell a fully loaded Ford (that isn't a BOF truck) at $40,000 when people normally gravitate to a Lexus for that much coin. There's something about the Flex, when I saw it at the NAIAS, it just looked and felt like it was out of its league. If I'm wrong, fine, I'll gladly eat humble pie. I think everyone who complains about the price should have to write lines: The Flex is priced in line with its competitors, The Flex is..... or You can get a Flex with decent equip for under 30K MSRP, thats a pretty good deal..... or The Flex hasn't been out long enough to judge ANYTHING about it in terms of sales.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SajeevMehta Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Well I think Ford needs to figure out just where a Ford ends and where a Lincoln begins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suv_guy_19 Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 (edited) Well I think Ford needs to figure out just where a Ford ends and where a Lincoln begins. Yeah, and I think Toyota should figure out where Toyota ends and Lexus begins, and Honda should figure out where Honda ends and Acura begins, and Nissan should figure out where Nissan ends and Infiniti begins and..... Your bias against Ford certainly shows through. Edited August 21, 2008 by suv_guy_19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 21, 2008 Share Posted August 21, 2008 Except that compact cars have been a prominent part of the car biz since the 1970s, and Ford's hot/cold reaction to them ever since has been a big problem. CUVs aren't small cars. Honda isn't selling a lot of their latest Pilot or CR-V, its the Civic and Fit that's the hottest number these days. Creating CUVs is a gamble, having a strong reputation for small cars has been proven to be a necessity for decades. BIG difference. Honda hasn't been selling a lot of CR-Vs?? Are you out of your mind? CUV market share is increasing. So is compact car market share. Why would you ignore one and only focus on the other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironhorse Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 The Escape was developed as a unibody vehicle with SUV utility that drove more like a car than truck...The Escape was Ford's First "crossover"...however it was relegated to a baby SUV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickF1011 Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 The Escape was developed as a unibody vehicle with SUV utility that drove more like a car than truck...The Escape was Ford's First "crossover"...however it was relegated to a baby SUV. Well, it was released before the term "CUV" really got any legs. The CR-V and Rav4 were called "small sport utilities" when they came out also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SajeevMehta Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 (edited) Yeah, and I think Toyota should figure out where Toyota ends and Lexus begins, and Honda should figure out where Honda ends and Acura begins, and Nissan should figure out where Nissan ends and Infiniti begins and..... Your bias against Ford certainly shows through. Yup, they all do. But none the imports are in the kinda financial hot water that FoMoCo faces, not to mention this is a Ford forum where we talk Fords. Damn right I have bias: I'm sick of seeing them make weak market offerings and watch their C-level execs rake in big bucks for flushing the company down the toilet. Edited August 22, 2008 by SajeevMehta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SajeevMehta Posted August 22, 2008 Share Posted August 22, 2008 Honda hasn't been selling a lot of CR-Vs?? Are you out of your mind? Relative to the Civic, they aren't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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