Future of Crown Vic, G.Mrq, Town Car

[NickF1011]

It stilll makes ford a dollar. No point in getting rid of income. They and everone else needs every cent they can get. When the panthers quit making money or they are legislated out they will be gone. So in the interm no point in rushing the matter.

 

Matthew

 

Does it still make a dollar though? Ford has been completely mum on the issue for years now.

 

OK, I should have added that to me full size is RWD V8 with 4 doors. Come on Nick, you are smart guy, you should have known we are talking about sedans, not coupes.

 

The M3 is still available with 4 doors. :P

 

I agree that the Panther's aren't perfect. They are frozen in time at the moment and lacking any styling appeal to attract new buyers. Having said that, look what Ford has done to them, yet they carry on. Do you think there is any vehicle in Ford's line-up that could be put through what the Panthers have gone through (zero updating, zero advertising, restriction of sales to basically fleet only) and still survive? The Mustang and the F-150 seem like they could, but IMO, nothing else. And what does it say that the Panther is in the same category as the F-150 and Mustang? The Panther has done everything it has been asked to do and more. Don't hate the Panther or their loyal supporters (I know you've said you don't, and I believe you). Hate Ford for what they have done to it.

 

And Nick, I agree with you about either fixing it or killing it. But there are those of us who want it fixed, not killed. And we want to make sure Ford knows we are out there.

 

The Panthers are NOT surviving without updates though. If declining sales year over year for the past decade, cancelling all retail Crown Vic units, and the upcoming death of the Grand Marquis are indications of surviving, may no other Ford product ever "survive" like the Panthers. They are on life support. Yes, of course there are those who want them updated. I want them updated. But they are NOT going be updated. This is the reality. Ford isn't going to change them. They are letting them wither on the vine and they will eventually be axed. It's just how it is.

 

The MKR is beautiful. The Interceptor is head turning. Put these into production (yes I know it costs money to do that and Ford doesn't have a lot of it. Thankfully the Panthers make them money, so the ever failing D3's can continue to have life), advertise them and watch the V8 RWD 4 door segment grow

 

Ah, have to bring up Panther vs D3 in whatever way one can, huh? Ever-failing. :rolleyes: I have not seen a profit breakdown on the D3's profits. Have you? Until then, we can't even begin to discuss how much money it does or doesn't make. I have not even seen any evidence that the Panthers are highly profitable anymore either. I mean St. Thomas is running on one shift, there are no more Crown Vic retail sales, and sales of all 3 models are down a ton compared to where they were several yars ago when we heard they were making insane amounts of money.

 

Mullaly has said that the days of one vehicle program funding another are over, so I highly doubt your scenario holds any validity.

 

"Hey, let's keeping selling the Crown Vic so we can make another money-losing D3 variant!" "Awesome idea!"

 

Somehow I doubt that's how the board room discussions go.

[NickF1011]

I so agree... there is a market share out there for these products and I know we here at STAP have the skills and wisdom to successfully launch these awesome cars!!! If STAP can still make a profit for Ford in the current conditions on one shift think about what 2 shifts could make??? I understand retooling will cost money but now is the perfect time to approach the Canadian government for $$$. St Thomas has the work force available.. empty supplier plants that could be used for close local shipping of supplier parts. We also have 2 Magna plants (stamping, forming and welding) right here in our back yard.

 

I give you guys all the credit in the world, but just because you can build them doesn't mean the dealers can sell them. Supply and demand. Dealers are having a tough time even unloading one shift's worth of product right now.

[crownvicsparky]

Very true Nick... thankfully Ford hasn't made a move yet... probably why the GRWD platform has been put on hold. But it will take some time to schedule a retooling anyway. IMO the right time to launch would be the summer of 2010 for a 2011 my. I would hope the economy would be brighter then and people will need to replace their cars. I remember back in the early 90's after the recession people bought cars... some of them had no choice they just couldn't suck any more blood out of there old stone..lol

 

I see 2 problems that hurt us (auto industry in general).

1) economy when to crap

2) the market has been saturated with cars the past few years leading up to this mess.

 

Its like the stock market or a poker game... you have to predict/ know when to make your move and when you do make it count.

[Bored of Pisteon]

Interchangeable parts from one vehicle to the next does help in the long run and that's what it's always been with a great selling point with Panthers THEN AS WELL AS NOW. Without a doubt.

 

But the way Ford is handling that platform right now. Come on guys... Look at the responses on the LTD thread in the Ford Motor Co. discussion forum. Why can't Ford listen to what some of the people want? Not everyone wants some little turdmobile with 24" rims on it!

[NickF1011]

Very true Nick... thankfully Ford hasn't made a move yet... probably why the GRWD platform has been put on hold. But it will take some time to schedule a retooling anyway. IMO the right time to launch would be the summer of 2010 for a 2011 my. I would hope the economy would be brighter then and people will need to replace their cars. I remember back in the early 90's after the recession people bought cars... some of them had no choice they just couldn't suck any more blood out of there old stone..lol

 

I see 2 problems that hurt us (auto industry in general).

1) economy when to crap

2) the market has been saturated with cars the past few years leading up to this mess.

 

Its like the stock market or a poker game... you have to predict/ know when to make your move and when you do make it count.

 

I hope GRWD eventually gets the green light and that it somehow makes its way to St. Thomas. You guys certainly deserve new product.

[matthewq4b]

Does it still make a dollar though? Ford has been completely mum on the issue for years now.

 

Define High dollar.

 

It is about $4K per unit A far cry from what it was years ago.

 

You have to ask are the D3 sedans making as much. Doubtfully. Sales of the D3 Sedans are not much better than the panthers and the D3's have seen investments of billions upon billions over the last 5 or 6 years where as the panthers have seen investments of a few million. If a person is going to question the profitability of the Panthers you have to question the profits of the D3 sedans. But they can not be directly compared to each other as Ford is seeing the D3 as a future Investment with hopefully big returns. If you are questioning the profit margins of the panthers then by that line of thinking the D3 sedans have to be losing money.

 

Ford is not keeping the panther around cause they love the platform or are halo cars. They are keeping them around for one reason and one reason only, they make enough money to make worth while to do so. As much as you have hard time dealing with and admitting it that is how it is. Mullaly would chop their ass right now if they were not making the dollars.

 

 

The Taurus X is gone why because it makes no money. Do not think for second that Ford would not cut the panthers and shutter the plant if the cars were not making enough money to make worth their while.

 

The panthers have a guillotine hanging over them and as soon profits slip to the point that it is no longer worth their while they will be done for and that fast.

 

Ford is doing what it can to keep the Panthers money makers without actually investing any money. Something they have done better than any vehicle built by any body. By limiting STAP to one shift they can insure that they meet the fleet demand. If they were still retailing them like they used to there would be a good possibility that they would have to add a second shift for a minimal increase in out put and destroy the current profitability these cars have.

 

 

And Ford is having no issues getting rid of the one shift supply, there are shortages and waiting lists for TC's and CV's in some area's. The U.S Retail GM's are finding it a tough sell right now. As is every thing else. But neither the TC or the CV have seen the percentage drop in sales that the rest of the Ford's line up has. The GM has taken a big hit but Ford has pretty much stopped delivering them to dealers for show room retail and their hit was no worse than some other Ford models.

 

Like it or not they make enough bucks for Ford to keep on making them. Apparently Ford and Mullaly feel it is worth thier while to keep on making them. Not sure what your issue is

 

Matthew

[NickF1011]

It is about $4K per unit A far cry from what it was years ago.

 

Would love to see any reliable source for this information.

 

But neither the TC or the CV have seen the percentage drop in sales that the rest of the Ford's line up has.

 

Re-hee-hee-heeeally?

 

Crown Vic for '09 is down 40.8% from '08. That's more than the Fusion and Focus and within spitting distance of the Taurus at 44%.

 

Town Car sales really can't validly be compared, since the lines were shut down to move production to St. Thomas at this time last year.

[taxman100]

One other thing to remember is Ford dropped the Grand Marquis GS model after 2008 - instead of being able to buy a new Grand Marquis for $18,000 after rebates and discounts, now you have to spend over $23,000. I don't know what percentage of 2008 sales were the GS, but I'm guessing the decision was made as a way to help clear out the unsellable Sable.

 

The competition is a little different at the higher price.

[NickF1011]

One other thing to remember is Ford dropped the Grand Marquis GS model after 2008 - instead of being able to buy a new Grand Marquis for $18,000 after rebates and discounts, now you have to spend over $23,000. I don't know what percentage of 2008 sales were the GS, but I'm guessing the decision was made as a way to help clear out the unsellable Sable.

 

The competition is a little different at the higher price.

 

The decision likely didn't have anything to do with the Sable at all. There we go trying to pin something on the D3 again. Starting MSRP on the Sable in 2008 was nearly $24,000. How is axing a trim line that started $6000 lower going to help Sable sales? If it helped move anything, it was Milans.

 

It more than likely had to do with absolutely no desire on the retail front in an $18,000 Grand Marquis.

Edited March 11, 2009 by NickF1011

[96towncarcartier]

OKAY... here's the deal on the CV and GM as I see it:

 

The real problem with these cars is the fact that there is no way they can pass the CAFE standards that take effect in 2012. You can't get a 4,000lb car with a V8 to meet high fuel economy standards that the Gov't requires.

 

So, the car is not likely to be made after 2011MY.

 

To get the car to pass the standards would require a complete retooling all over the place. FWD wouldn't work on a car this size and weight, and such significant changes would likely kill its fanbase with the police market, especially if it went to an Ecoboost V6. The GM's loyal following probably wouldn't go for it either, nor would the TC's fans...which the MKS is eventually going to win over.

 

So what's the point really? To make these cars pass the 2012 test would require millions in new investments to re-work the cars from the GROUND UP... And for what? 50,000 sales a year?

 

CV ended retail sales because only 3% of all sales were retail in 2007. Why offer a car that will NOT sell? Sorry, but fleet sales do NOT produce a profit... only retails do.

 

So with the coming (and obvious) end of the line, why invest tons of money in improvements and extra features like navigation and such? It makes sense to streamline the product to reduce excessive costs, still offer a good car, but no extra fancy stuff that sales and coming cancellation do not merit.

 

You don't stay in business by spending money for long term expenses on a short term product.

 

 

And for the Chargers, they still do not even compete with the CV, a smaller car with terrible visibility and a horrible reliability record. Departments would have to be FORCED to switch before the market is majority held by the Charger. The Impala is limited by FWD, which most departments still refuse to accept.

[NickF1011]

OKAY... here's the deal on the CV and GM as I see it:

 

The real problem with these cars is the fact that there is no way they can pass the CAFE standards that take effect in 2012. You can't get a 4,000lb car with a V8 to meet high fuel economy standards that the Gov't requires.

 

So, the car is not likely to be made after 2011MY.

 

To get the car to pass the standards would require a complete retooling all over the place. FWD wouldn't work on a car this size and weight, and such significant changes would likely kill its fanbase with the police market, especially if it went to an Ecoboost V6. The GM's loyal following probably wouldn't go for it either, nor would the TC's fans...which the MKS is eventually going to win over.

 

So what's the point really? To make these cars pass the 2012 test would require millions in new investments to re-work the cars from the GROUND UP... And for what? 50,000 sales a year?

 

CV ended retail sales because only 3% of all sales were retail in 2007. Why offer a car that will NOT sell? Sorry, but fleet sales do NOT produce a profit... only retails do.

 

So with the coming (and obvious) end of the line, why invest tons of money in improvements and extra features like navigation and such? It makes sense to streamline the product to reduce excessive costs, still offer a good car, but no extra fancy stuff that sales and coming cancellation do not merit.

 

You don't stay in business by spending money for long term expenses on a short term product.

 

 

And for the Chargers, they still do not even compete with the CV, a smaller car with terrible visibility and a horrible reliability record. Departments would have to be FORCED to switch before the market is majority held by the Charger. The Impala is limited by FWD, which most departments still refuse to accept.

 

Seems like a pretty good summation.

 

Only one major sticking point: The Taurus is of similar size and weight and gets by with FWD/AWD just fine.

 

Also, I don't see it really so much as a CAFE issue specifically, but just that the car would require updates, period. It would need an updated V8 and updated transmission (yes, likely mandated by CAFE), both of which would require some substantial changes, especially in the transmission tunnel. The interior would need to be redone, as Ford doesn't want to build parts for a single vehicle line forever, but instead would rather share parts across the line with more vehicles -- things like audio/HVAC controls, steering wheels, seat frames, etc. The Panther is the orphan of the family concerning all of those parts and it becomes less and less profitable with each passing year to keep a supplier for those parts.

 

It has been a good run. I hope GRWD eventually gets a revival so we can see some great RWD cars at Ford again. Let's cross our fingers.

[96towncarcartier]

Let me just state one opinion:

 

I really wish these cars would stay around forever, to continue to develop and evolve. I think the transformation over the years has really allowed the cars to become the absolute best that could have occurred, the technology has steadily improved since the 1970 LTD debuted. It's great to witness a good car become progressively better over 30+ years.

 

Sure, they could continue to become even better, but the gas mileage requirements and other standards from the Feds are what's REALLY killing these cars off. If it weren't for that, I think more money would be spent on them and advertising for them, to keep them selling. Obviously, the police market still wants them, as does the taxi market.

 

The cars can run FOREVER... heck, my sister's 1988 CVPI went for close to 500,000 miles...all original parts.

[Cocheese]

Would love to see any reliable source for this information.

 

I've actually been told its much larger then $4,000 by a reliable source. I've even been told that STAP is the most profitable plant Ford has. And has been that way for years.

 

But since I was told this in a one on one conversation, I guess we can't count it because some journalist wasn't there to write it down.

 

Re-hee-hee-heeeally?

 

Crown Vic for '09 is down 40.8% from '08. That's more than the Fusion and Focus and within spitting distance of the Taurus at 44%.

 

Town Car sales really can't validly be compared, since the lines were shut down to move production to St. Thomas at this time last year.

 

Come on Nick, you're starting to sound like stephenhawkings on the MMGW thread.

 

Yes, the Panther sales are down. And have been going down for a while. Nobody is going to disagree with you on that. The point we're making is, look why they are going down. If Ford put these cars on the same playing field as the rest of their line up, and they were losing sales, I'd concede you have a point. But Ford is limiting their sales.

 

My neighbour's dad has driven a Vic for the last 20 years. Loves them. Decided he was getting on in life, and that before he went, wanted one last new car. So he went into the Ford dealership he has always used and tried ordering a brand new car. The dealership denied him and instead tried putting him in a Taurus. He went to three other dealership and got the same treatment. Luckily he found a dealership 1 hour out of town that was willing to accommodate him, and he has his new Vic. If this is the kind of treatment all potential new Panther owners get, is it any surprise their sales are down?

[Cocheese]

The cars can run FOREVER... heck, my sister's 1988 CVPI went for close to 500,000 miles...all original parts.

 

Pretty much every cab in my city is an old Police Interceptor and I have yet to see one with less then 400,000kms. Some even over the 800,000kms mark. And every driver I've asked loves the car.

[armadamaster]

I've actually been told its much larger then $4,000 by a reliable source. I've even been told that STAP is the most profitable plant Ford has. And has been that way for years.

 

But since I was told this in a one on one conversation, I guess we can't count it because some journalist wasn't there to write it down.

 

 

 

Come on Nick, you're starting to sound like stephenhawkings on the MMGW thread.

 

Yes, the Panther sales are down. And have been going down for a while. Nobody is going to disagree with you on that. The point we're making is, look why they are going down. If Ford put these cars on the same playing field as the rest of their line up, and they were losing sales, I'd concede you have a point. But Ford is limiting their sales.

 

My neighbour's dad has driven a Vic for the last 20 years. Loves them. Decided he was getting on in life, and that before he went, wanted one last new car. So he went into the Ford dealership he has always used and tried ordering a brand new car. The dealership denied him and instead tried putting him in a Taurus. He went to three other dealership and got the same treatment. Luckily he found a dealership 1 hour out of town that was willing to accommodate him, and he has his new Vic. If this is the kind of treatment all potential new Panther owners get, is it any surprise their sales are down?

 

Great post and right on the money.

[Moby Vic]

You can make profit by not spending money.

[NickF1011]

Come on Nick, you're starting to sound like stephenhawkings on the MMGW thread.

 

Yes, the Panther sales are down. And have been going down for a while. Nobody is going to disagree with you on that. The point we're making is, look why they are going down. If Ford put these cars on the same playing field as the rest of their line up, and they were losing sales, I'd concede you have a point. But Ford is limiting their sales.

 

I've said all along that if Ford had kept them up to date that they would still be doing fine. I was all for that. What seems plain as day though is that Ford is NOT going to keep them up to date, so clamoring for them to update them or keep them in production at this point is just wasted breath. That's really the only point I've been trying to make all along. All of the complaining isn't going to make Ford treat them any differently. Ford gave up on these cars long before I did.

[nelsonlu]

I've said all along that if Ford had kept them up to date that they would still be doing fine. I was all for that. What seems plain as day though is that Ford is NOT going to keep them up to date, so clamoring for them to update them or keep them in production at this point is just wasted breath. That's really the only point I've been trying to make all along. All of the complaining isn't going to make Ford treat them any differently. Ford gave up on these cars long before I did.

 

The problem with the Panthers is that with the current V8 engine, I don't think there is ever going to be a way to make them substantially more fuel efficient than they are now. Remember that the fleet customers were ordering Panthers in large numbers until the gas prices went through the roof. The prices are back down now, but I doubt that any large fleet customers would run the risk of buying a large number of Panthers and then get caught with high gas prices again. I think the only chance that the Panthers would have had to survive was if there was a good way to get the EcoBoost V6 (or even I4) in without compromising reliability and drivability. I don't think it would have mattered how updated the platform otherwise could have without making it substantially more fuel-efficient.

[NickF1011]

The problem with the Panthers is that with the current V8 engine, I don't think there is ever going to be a way to make them substantially more fuel efficient than they are now. Remember that the fleet customers were ordering Panthers in large numbers until the gas prices went through the roof. The prices are back down now, but I doubt that any large fleet customers would run the risk of buying a large number of Panthers and then get caught with high gas prices again. I think the only chance that the Panthers would have had to survive was if there was a good way to get the EcoBoost V6 (or even I4) in without compromising reliability and drivability. I don't think it would have mattered how updated the platform otherwise could have without making it substantially more fuel-efficient.

 

Agree with those points for the most part. There's really no reason the Panthers couldn't have been offered with a base V6 option years ago. It just further goes to show Ford's lack of commitment to the vehicle, unfortunately.

[96towncarcartier]

Agree with those points for the most part. There's really no reason the Panthers couldn't have been offered with a base V6 option years ago. It just further goes to show Ford's lack of commitment to the vehicle, unfortunately.

 

You can't put any of the CURRENT V6 engines in a 4000lb vehicle. You'd be taking the car backwards towards the days of the early 4.6L when everyone complained because the car was anemic on power.

 

The only viable option would be to put a Ecoboost V6 in the car, which produces 355hp and 350lb ft torque. I think that would REALLY get excitement out of the police crowd. The trick, is seeing if that technology can withstand the rigors of police work.

 

Also, what about repair costs should something break? Could drive up repair costs, which right now are very reasonable because the 4.6 lasts forever.

[94ranger]

You can't put any of the CURRENT V6 engines in a 4000lb vehicle. You'd be taking the car backwards towards the days of the early 4.6L when everyone complained because the car was anemic on power.

 

The only viable option would be to put a Ecoboost V6 in the car, which produces 355hp and 350lb ft torque. I think that would REALLY get excitement out of the police crowd. The trick, is seeing if that technology can withstand the rigors of police work.

 

Also, what about repair costs should something break? Could drive up repair costs, which right now are very reasonable because the 4.6 lasts forever.

 

What's wrong with the Mustang and Explorer and F150 4.6L? Heck even the 5.4 would work perfect. It they want gas mileage, get a Fusion.

[suv_guy_19]

You can't put any of the CURRENT V6 engines in a 4000lb vehicle.

 

 

Why not the 3.5?

Edited March 20, 2009 by suv_guy_19

[94ranger]

Why not the 3.5?

 

Doesn't the Taurus weigh over 4000 lbs. And if i remember right, the flex is something like 4800 lbs. the 3.5 would probably do fine but cost way more than current 4.6.

[NickF1011]

Doesn't the Taurus weigh over 4000 lbs. And if i remember right, the flex is something like 4800 lbs. the 3.5 would probably do fine but cost way more than current 4.6.

 

Yeah, it's not like the 4.6 2-valve in the Crown Vic now is some power monster compared to the 3.5. Even torque production isn't very far superior. The 3.5 does a fine job in the Taurus and Flex, which definitely are similar in weight to the Panthers.

[Cocheese]

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-...is/Reliability/

 

 

Reliability

 

The 2009 Mercury Grand Marquis reliability score of 10.0 out of 10 is the Predicted Reliability rating provided by J.D. Power and Associates. This score is based on trending the past three years of historical initial quality and dependability data from J.D. Power's automotive studies, specifically the Vehicle Dependability Study (VDS) and the Initial Quality Study (IQS).